Fantasy Netflix's The Witcher - General Discussion Thread

[Fincher]

Triss is a game only character so she may not even appear at all.

No, she's in the books.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

Oh yes...

 

[Iceman]

Hmmm, looks pretty great to me. Let's have one like that for Kate Beckinsale too.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

1 month. 1 week. 3 days.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

 

[Primal Slayer]

I know nothing about this series so is there a specific reason why Ciri needs to be white? I get wanting to have your faves look like what they've been envisioned to look like but its never a deal breaker for me.

Because that's not how I see fantasy inspired by medieval Europe. Because that's not how Ciri looks in the books and the game.

I feel like we've gotten to the point in time where its like "we know this is popular" but it isnt depicting an actual person so why cant people of color play in medieval worlds as these big popular characters?

 

[Reek]

Have you read the books? Race changing Ciri would have to change so much about the Witcher world regarding Elves, the Elder blood, the demographics of Cintra, etc etc that it seems like a stupid decision when casting her as she was described would be less of a headache.

I've already said... clearly stated in fact... that I would prefer her to be loyal to the source material and games.... But i'm not going to start ****ting on the show thats no where near here because of a casting call i dont agree with. I find it pretty petty and dumb to just say I WONT WATCH IT! because of a race change.

As I said, the POV character in GoT have many changes... that didn't stop anyone... but now it's a different race casting call (are we even sure its a real casting call?) and it's a problem to the point people wont watch? sorry but that comes off a bit sad to me. but to each their own.

 

[TheVileOne]

I know nothing about this series so is there a specific reason why Ciri needs to be white? I get wanting to have your faves look like what they've been envisioned to look like but its never a deal breaker for me.



I feel like we've gotten to the point in time where its like "we know this is popular" but it isnt depicting an actual person so why cant people of color play in medieval worlds as these big popular characters?

Yes. She's described as such in the books. I see The Witcher as taking place in an alternate Earth that's similar to our own. Like it's another Earth that exists that is similar to ours. The Witcher is set in a continent very similar to Europe with the main action taking place in what would basically be 13th century Poland

Additionally, there are other countries referenced in the books that are the foreign far off lands, where like Ofier is basically like the Middle-East, and Zerrikania is like this world's Africa.

Ciri is a descendant of highly powerful elven sorceress, which makes her very powerful and sought after.

Additionally if Ciri is non-white it basically means that her biological relatives would also have to have their race changed.

Granted, those are just off the top of my head. To be perfectly honest, after getting Cavill as Geralt, this isn't a hill I care to die on.

I mean nothing against Michael Clarke Duncan, but he was a very bland Kingpin. Vincent D'Onofrio nailed.

Is it wrong that fans want these characters onscreen to look like the images they've seen depicted for years or imagined in their heads? IMHO it isn't.

If you want a BAME female lead...I mean make that show. You are making The Witcher. It's established material.

 

[TheVileOne]

Now let me bring something else up. I totally get that there is a representation issue in media across film and TV. I totally get that. Even I was annoyed with how casting was done across Death Note, Dragon Ball Evolution, and Ghost in the Shell. Like why not even consider or try some Asian or Asian American leads at least? I understand it's a financing money issue, but it didn't translate for at least DBE and GitS on film.

But let me ask you all this. Does casting an ethnic minority as Ciri make up for past slights against minorities on film and TV? IMHO it doesn't.

Is The Lord of the Rings now irrelevant because it didn't really have any prominent minorities or non-white actors? Should we dismiss it because it wasn't woke and progressive? The Lord of the Rings, you don't really expect a large minority cast because LOTR is basically sort of like a fantasy mythology version of England. Sure maybe you could've cast some non-white actors as Aragorn or the like, but it wouldn't have fit the setting or world that was being put onscreen.

But does that make it irrelevant? Does that make it bad or racist? Think about it. They easily could've been bold and been like, yeah let's cast BAME actors in more prominent worlds. It's fantasy and fiction so let's just say, well in our world blah blah blah.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I know nothing about this series so is there a specific reason why Ciri needs to be white? I get wanting to have your faves look like what they've been envisioned to look like but its never a deal breaker for me.

I feel like we've gotten to the point in time where its like "we know this is popular" but it isnt depicting an actual person so why cant people of color play in medieval worlds as these big popular characters?

TheVileOne answered for me (thanks, man).

I'd add that for me personally Medieval-based fantasy is Caucasian. I can't accept poc elves, dwarves and especially high-born. In my mind if there are people of exotic appearance, they are visitors from FAR away lands. Or slaves. Perhaps it's narrow-minded, but I just can't ignore the background. This is the setting. I welcome poc in other settings, though. Sci-fi, space fantasy, cyberpunk and whatever.

 

[TheVileOne]

To me it just depends on the material. In fictional fantasy, you could argue that anything goes.

Like the Doctor Who thing. Keep in mind the regeneration thing was done so they could keep the show on the air and figure out a way to keep the Doctor in the show with another actor. I mean making stuff up as you go, you can pretty much do whatever the **** all you want with regeneration. Time Lords are aliens, right? So they can regenerate into a ****ing asexual Jurassic "Life Finds a Way" Park frog if they really wanted. So, why is a female regeneration such a huge stretch?

But I basically recognize The Witcher basically as Polish mythology. It's clearly meant to be an AU version of Western Europe and Poland. I also understand that the Polish fans sort of probably see this material as Polish mythology.

Now here's another thing. I've heard black filmmakers and actors in the past say they used to like other heroes, but when they saw a Luke Cage or Black Panther they felt exhilarated because there's finally a character that "looks like them." So if that's true...and that's OK...doesn't that mean that the reverse would be true as well? Just asking.

 

[DeadPresident]

Because pop progressivist's probably buy into the meme that whites don't have any cultures, or that if they do they can't be particularly important. This honestly seems like a decision that's trying to be controversial. It honestly seems like the premise behind these decisions is that "Anything that's only white is inherently racist", the same as with the BF5 backlash. Reality/historical accuracy is such an offensive concept we need to lie/manipulate its representation so some people feel comfortable with it.

By and large this kind of controversy doesn't do the project any good, we'll have to see how it pans out. I'm going to assume "lol Polish people don't have a culture worth respecting" is the wrong message to send.

I know nothing about this series so is there a specific reason why Ciri needs to be white? I get wanting to have your faves look like what they've been envisioned to look like but its never a deal breaker for me.

I feel like we've gotten to the point in time where its like "we know this is popular" but it isnt depicting an actual person so why cant people of color play in medieval worlds as these big popular characters?

The book is based on Slavic/Polish folklore and mythology - those are European/white monoliths, why would there be a character that doesn't reflect the cultural setting essential to the material?

If people want to get outraged about Matt Damon and Scarlett Johansson playing minority roles (and I agree with the logic of people rejecting those decisions) then it should apply here too.

 

[pepper]

I already wasn't on board with Cavill as Geralt, but I was still willing to give this series a chance. But making Ciri a different race is an insult not only to the books, but also to the slavic culture the story is hugely based on. Shame.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I'm gonna treat this as a bait for free publicity for now. Basically, everything is said in this thread on why this is a mistake decision, assuming if it goes through. Still hoping for a different outcome, but I'm 10 times more skeptical now than I was.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Yes. She's described as such in the books. I see The Witcher as taking place in an alternate Earth that's similar to our own. Like it's another Earth that exists that is similar to ours. The Witcher is set in a continent very similar to Europe with the main action taking place in what would basically be 13th century Poland

Additionally, there are other countries referenced in the books that are the foreign far off lands, where like Ofier is basically like the Middle-East, and Zerrikania is like this world's Africa.

Ciri is a descendant of highly powerful elven sorceress, which makes her very powerful and sought after.

Additionally if Ciri is non-white it basically means that her biological relatives would also have to have their race changed.

Granted, those are just off the top of my head. To be perfectly honest, after getting Cavill as Geralt, this isn't a hill I care to die on.

I mean nothing against Michael Clarke Duncan, but he was a very bland Kingpin. Vincent D'Onofrio nailed.

Is it wrong that fans want these characters onscreen to look like the images they've seen depicted for years or imagined in their heads? IMHO it isn't.

If you want a BAME female lead...I mean make that show. You are making The Witcher. It's established material.

Just because she's described as white doesnt mean she has to be adapted as white...is there not something that is so important to her being white that she needs to be white? That would change the story and the character.

Now let me bring something else up. I totally get that there is a representation issue in media across film and TV. I totally get that. Even I was annoyed with how casting was done across Death Note, Dragon Ball Evolution, and Ghost in the Shell. Like why not even consider or try some Asian or Asian American leads at least? I understand it's a financing money issue, but it didn't translate for at least DBE and GitS on film.

But let me ask you all this. Does casting an ethnic minority as Ciri make up for past slights against minorities on film and TV? IMHO it doesn't.

Is The Lord of the Rings now irrelevant because it didn't really have any prominent minorities or non-white actors? Should we dismiss it because it wasn't woke and progressive? The Lord of the Rings, you don't really expect a large minority cast because LOTR is basically sort of like a fantasy mythology version of England. Sure maybe you could've cast some non-white actors as Aragorn or the like, but it wouldn't have fit the setting or world that was being put onscreen.

But does that make it irrelevant? Does that make it bad or racist? Think about it. They easily could've been bold and been like, yeah let's cast BAME actors in more prominent worlds. It's fantasy and fiction so let's just say, well in our world blah blah blah.

No one is making films that have already been made irrelevant, nor bad nor racist. Nor is making Ciri non white trying to make up for past slights against POC. But guess what? Making her a POC will still give you LotR if someone wants to look for such an accurate representation of a fictional world. It is stupid that POC can't be cast as big characters in these things just because it wont make the era they are set in less real. These arent real people, isnt based on real events, and it probably wont even change the character apart from aesthetics. And so what if her being a POC means her parents will have to be POC, ew a tthem further tainting a fake version of England?

Of course I wasnt in those posts but when you saw Death Note, DBE, GitS, were you as upset as you are now?

To me it just depends on the material. In fictional fantasy, you could argue that anything goes.

Like the Doctor Who thing. Keep in mind the regeneration thing was done so they could keep the show on the air and figure out a way to keep the Doctor in the show with another actor. I mean making stuff up as you go, you can pretty much do whatever the **** all you want with regeneration. Time Lords are aliens, right? So they can regenerate into a ****ing asexual Jurassic "Life Finds a Way" Park frog if they really wanted. So, why is a female regeneration such a huge stretch?

But I basically recognize The Witcher basically as Polish mythology. It's clearly meant to be an AU version of Western Europe and Poland. I also understand that the Polish fans sort of probably see this material as Polish mythology.

Now here's another thing. I've heard black filmmakers and actors in the past say they used to like other heroes, but when they saw a Luke Cage or Black Panther they felt exhilarated because there's finally a character that "looks like them." So if that's true...and that's OK...doesn't that mean that the reverse would be true as well? Just asking.

What is the reverse? White filmmakers and actors being exhilarted about finally seeing white characters that finally look like them?

 

[DeadPresident]

This is always the case with people who preach for race-changing a character - as long as it's from white to their own race

Why does Matt Damon's character rather being Asian matter? It's fictional. Why does Scarlett Johansson's character being Asian matter? She's not even human. The point of the Witcher is that it's a fantasy reimagining of medieval Europe - where there would've been essentially only whites. That's relevant, and furthermore it's important to fans of the franchise.

When it's benefitting people who want to see more black representation why people like the character, the world, the lore, etc becomes irrelevant, but when it's the opposite way around suddenly all sorts of spurious reasons are used to justify why someone can be X race/gender/ethnicity/sexuality, etc.

 

[DeadPresident]

Also, writing off white people wanting to see something culturally relevant to themselves as being irrelevant is ****ing childish and borders on trying to antagonize And people wonder why this conversation goes nowhere and always brings out the worst.

"Oh now you can FINALLY see some white people on screen lololololol"…Err, except that's not what it's about, at all?

 

[Primal Slayer]

This is always the case with people who preach for race-changing a character - as long as it's from white to their own race

Why does Matt Damon's character rather being Asian matter? It's fictional. Why does Scarlett Johansson's character being Asian matter? She's not even human. The point of the Witcher is that it's a fantasy reimagining of medieval Europe - where there would've been essentially only whites. That's relevant, and furthermore it's important to fans of the franchise.

When it's benefitting people who want to see more black representation why people like the character, the world, the lore, etc becomes irrelevant, but when it's the opposite way around suddenly all sorts of spurious reasons are used to justify why someone can be X race/gender/ethnicity/sexuality, etc.

And look those characters still got white washed. But people of color are less represented then white people you gonna get people mad if you make a POC character into a white person. But we've been doing that for YEARS for big movies. Hollywood attempted to make the lead in Crazy Rich Asians into a white character just so people would see the film.

Not to mention that when you make the white person the savior of people of color over and over and over and over and over and over again, it gets old. Is Ciri going to be the savior of everyone?

70% of characters in film are White, so you aint losing anything if someone gets gender bent or made into a POC. 20 Marvel films and there are like 5 POC? Zero female lead films.

Also, writing off white people wanting to see something culturally relevant to themselves as being irrelevant is ****ing childish and borders on trying to antagonize And people wonder why this conversation goes nowhere and always brings out the worst.

"Oh now you can FINALLY see some white people on screen lololololol"…Err, except that's not what it's about, at all?

I can give you over 1000 movies that are culturally relevant to white people. But being mad about 3 characters making your fantasy Europe irrelevant is something else.

 

[Iceman]

How big are these books in Poland? Does everyone know about them like Lord of the Rings, outside of the usual typical fantasy audience? (if anyone knows)

 

[DeadPresident]

And look those characters still got white washed. But people of color are less represented then white people you gonna get people mad if you make a POC character into a white person. But we've been doing that for YEARS for big movies. Hollywood attempted to make the lead in Crazy Rich Asians into a white character just so people would see the film.

Not to mention that when you make the white person the savior of people of color over and over and over and over and over and over again, it gets old. Is Ciri going to be the savior of everyone?

70% of characters in film are White, so you aint losing anything if someone gets gender bent or made into a POC. 20 Marvel films and there are like 5 POC? Zero female lead films.

Okay so why is it necessary to change a character like Ciri (where her appearance and race are relevant to her character for the reasons other posters have mentioned) and not to rather advocate for a change where the person's race doesn't matter like with what they did with Domino in Deadpool 2?

Basically what I'm getting from you is "I want to see more black people in film and I don't care what anyone says about cases where it's handled badly because whites have had it good for too long!" - that doesn't seem like a particularly constructive place to start the conversation from. There are people who want the lore to be authentically adhered to as much as you want to see more diversity, and your argument for why their reason doesn't matter is "too many whites"…? Seems a bit weird to me.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Okay so why is it necessary to change a character like Ciri (where her appearance and race are relevant to her character for the reasons other posters have mentioned) and not to rather advocate for a change where the person's race doesn't matter like with what they did with Domino in Deadpool 2?

Basically what I'm getting from you is "I want to see more black people in film and I don't care what anyone says about cases where it's handled badly because whites have had it good for too long!" - that doesn't seem like a particularly constructive place to start the conversation from. There are people who want the lore to be authentically adhered to as much as you want to see more diversity, and your argument for why there reason doesn't matter is "too many whites"…? Seems a bit weird to me.

The only reason I have seen regarding Ciri having to be white is "she is described as white in the books". Unless I managed to miss the relevant reason why it's important that she is white, her being described as white doesnt seem that important.

I still havent seen anyone list any reasons where making a character into a POC (doesnt just mean just Black because they arent just looking for black actors for Ciri) was handled badly.

I do think it is ridiculous to say that there cant be any major POC characters in a fantasy world because it breaks authenticity. It isnt set in anything called England, Germany, nothing like that. From what I see, correct me if Im wrong, its set on a place called The Continent. It's an entirely different world from what we live in.

 

[Reek]

there are also monsters, magic, and people who are hundreds of years old... but its unimaginable to have POC's lol

 

[DeadPresident]

The only reason I have seen regarding Ciri having to be white is "she is described as white in the books". Unless I managed to miss the relevant reason why it's important that she is white, her being described as white doesnt seem that important.

I still havent seen anyone list any reasons where making a character into a POC (doesnt just mean just Black because they arent just looking for black actors for Ciri) was handled badly.

I do think it is ridiculous to say that there cant be any major POC characters in a fantasy world because it breaks authenticity. It isnt set in anything called England, Germany, nothing like that. From what I see, correct me if Im wrong, its set on a place called The Continent. It's an entirely different world from what we live in.

I literally answered that question in my previous post

I know better than this though, so I'm going to ripcord out of this particular thread.

 

[TheVileOne]

The only reason I have seen regarding Ciri having to be white is "she is described as white in the books". Unless I managed to miss the relevant reason why it's important that she is white, her being described as white doesnt seem that important.

I still havent seen anyone list any reasons where making a character into a POC (doesnt just mean just Black because they arent just looking for black actors for Ciri) was handled badly.

I do think it is ridiculous to say that there cant be any major POC characters in a fantasy world because it breaks authenticity. It isnt set in anything called England, Germany, nothing like that. From what I see, correct me if Im wrong, its set on a place called The Continent. It's an entirely different world from what we live in.

Primal Slayer, no offense, but it seems like you haven't read the books and don't know much about the material. So it just seems like you are being obstinate on purpose. Yes, The Witcher is set in a world not our own. But it also is a world that's modeled similarly after Earth.

Once again, there are foreign lands that are meant to represent Arabia or the Middle-East or Africa, such Ofier or Zerrikania.

However, the continent set in a land that's based on medieval Europe/Poland. Ciri's biological relatives wouldn't be non-white.

If Ciri is non-white, it means a number of her biological relatives in the show would be cast similarly. For example, her paternal side is Emhyr of Nilfgaards. They are referred to as the "Black Ones" going by their black armor and their sigil of the Black Sun.

This argument seems silly to me. It's like the argument that Danny Rand has to be Asian because he knows Kung Fu and he was trained in a fictional Asian city inspired by an ancient Asian culture...that was completely ****ing made up and fictional. And people call Danny Rand whitewashing for some reason.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Primal Slayer, no offense, but it seems like you haven't read the books and don't know much about the material. So it just seems like you are being obstinate on purpose. Yes, The Witcher is set in a world not our own. But it also is a world that's modeled similarly after Earth.

Once again, there are foreign lands that are meant to represent Arabia or the Middle-East or Africa, such Ofier or Zerrikania.

However, the continent set in a land that's based on medieval Europe/Poland. Ciri's biological relatives wouldn't be non-white.

If Ciri is non-white, it means a number of her biological relatives in the show would be cast similarly. For example, her paternal side is Emhyr of Nilfgaards. They are referred to as the "Black Ones" going by their black armor and their sigil of the Black Sun.

This argument seems silly to me. It's like the argument that Danny Rand has to be Asian because he knows Kung Fu and he was trained in a fictional Asian city inspired by an ancient Asian culture...that was completely ****ing made up and fictional. And people call Danny Rand whitewashing for some reason.

I started this whole conversation saying I knew nothing about this series.

I know nothing about this series so is there a specific reason why Ciri needs to be white? I get wanting to have your faves look like what they've been envisioned to look like but its never a deal breaker for me.

I feel like we've gotten to the point in time where its like "we know this is popular" but it isnt depicting an actual person so why cant people of color play in medieval worlds as these big popular characters?

Though either way, there were people of color in medieval Europe.
Yes, There Were People of Color in Pre-Modern Europe

And I never had a problem with Danny Rand being a white guy who learns kung fu. He's been one forever, if they ended up making him into a POC I wouldn't have minded that much but they didnt and I still was fine with it.

But I will forever think that it is stupid that if I were an actor who was interested in playing a role in something set in Medieval times, especially that of a fictional world with magic and elves, etc... that people would think it is ludicrous because of my color and for some reason takes them out of the element that they want represented as "faithfully" as possible.

Making your cast diverse isn't going to hurt the series. If they make a bunch of changes that hurt the story, yeah be pissed. If they do everything in their power to make Ciri different from what she has been established to be to the point where it might as well have been a new character, yeah be pissed.