NEW full TRAILER!!!

[mego joe]

...and "you" just might. You never know.

I've always said it's possible, but at this point it doesn't appear to be that way. And that's a huge error on Miller's part.

 

[mego joe]

Deprived or not deprived, the average Joe doesn't have time to read comics or is not interested in reading them. Look at "V For Vendetta". The success of that film was made by people who have no idea who Alan Moore is or that it is based on a graphic novel, of which the film missed to incorporate quite a bit of important stuff from. A friend of mine just loves that film. He really loved the message, him being a very liberal and hippie type of guy. I've told him that as great as he finds the film to be, the graphic novel is even better. I've told him that I have it, and yet, with a five day- a week- full time job and a kid, he has not asked me for it to read it.

Which is all the more reason that the original essence of the stories/ characters should be maintained- so that the average Joe gets what the character is supposed to be about and not something else that's watered down or just out and out wrong.

 

[Octoberist]

...yes, but sometimes it can also be for the worse, like these..

....these films pretty much stayed true to their source visually and story wise, but they didn't connect with modern viewers(there are ofcourse other reasons on each). They definately needed a more substantial updating, being the very retro characters that they are. That's why I can appreciate Frank Miller's take on such a retro/ pulpish character like The Spirit.


....that being said, I do shutter to think what Seth Rogen might do with The Green Hornet.

I like them all actually.

There's nothing with going retro. Not everything has to have that 'modern' look.

 

[Ziggyman]

Which is all the more reason that the original essence of the stories/ characters should be maintained- so that the average Joe gets what the character is supposed to be about and not something else that's watered down or just out and out wrong.

Sometimes it's better to know nothing...As you see...Nothing compares to the books...Hardly...

...Knowing nothing can enhance the entertainment value of the movie...Both (reading the comics/watching the film) are optional...I assure you that...People who have never heard of Watchmen and read the comic before watching the film...Are worse off than those who don't read and watch...From a movie standpoint...

 

[mego joe]

I like them all actually.



There's nothing with going retro. Not everything has to have that 'modern' look.

Agreed!



As a kid I loved Flash Gordon. I still find it fun. I've always thought The Phantom was really good in that Indiana Jones low tech style of adventure. I was disappointed it didn't go anywhere beyond the original. I like the Shadow too, though not as much. Dick Tracy really didn't grab me, though.



Some things work best as period pieces, some don't. I like period stuff, especially the thirties and forties.

 

[mego joe]

Sometimes it's better to know nothing...As you see...Nothing compares to the books...Hardly...

...Knowing nothing can enhance the entertainment value of the movie...Both (reading the comics/watching the film) are optional...I assure you that...People who have never heard of Watchmen and read the comic before watching the film...Are worse off than those who don't read and watch...From a movie standpoint...

But it doesn't make the movie accurate or good. I want accurate and good.

 

[rogue trooper]

I like them all actually.

There's nothing with going retro. Not everything has to have that 'modern' look.

....and you know what, I like them too. Particularly The Phantom and Flash Gordon. On my MySpace page I have them listed as part of my favorite movies. But ask yourself; why didn't they perform well in theaters?

This is what I'm trying to explain to "mego joe". It is the casual moviegoer who makes or breaks these films. These people don't share the same perspective we comic fans do. Hence, as I've already stated previous times, certain accomodations have to be made.

I thought The Phantom captured the comic strip. It looked just like it. On the other hand, when I saw it on vhs when it first came out, my non-comic fan brother went, "Why the hell does he wear a purple thight costume in the jungle?"(I guess he was also more fond of the more intimadating looking sculptured Bat suit), and unfortunately there were alot of reviewers who thought that way too. See what I mean?

....or Flash Gordon. It looked just like Alex Raymond's strip. But the film came a little too late, since Star Wars raised the bar(I thought the Filmation Flash Gordon cartoons did better in following the excitement of Star Wars). After looking at the slick armored Stormtroopers, sandal-wearing Hawkmen looked lame in comparison, I'm affraid. Darth Vader had replaced Ming The Merciless as the ultimate space opera villain by this time.

And so it all comes down to the fact that The Spirit has to compete with stuff like The Dark Knight and Iron Man. It has to have something that people will go, "hey, that looks interesting and different", and I have met people who have said something along those lines.

There is nothing wrong with going retro or doing it retro-like. Case in point; The Untochoubles, Roger Rabbit, Terry Gilliam's Brazil, or Tim Burton's Batman(also the animated series). They were all retro, each in a different aspect, and at the same time offered something refreshing with a unique style.

I suppose I could add Dick Tracy to that list as well, but, since there are people who think The Spirit should have been done ala Dick Tracy, I think the last thing The Spirit film needs is for people to immediately point out and say that it looks like Dick Tracy, because the film has to make it clear to the general audience that this is not a Dick Tracy-imitated film, since both properties are crime-detective adventures.


P.S. The Legend of The Lone Ranger will finally be released on dvd next week, I believe. Not a terribly good film, but I think fans might find it a nice little guilty pleasure the same way as The Beastmaster or even Flash Gordon.

 

[mego joe]

....and you know what, I like them too. Particularly The Phantom and Flash Gordon. On my MySpace page I have them listed as part of my favorite movies. But ask yourself; why didn't they perform well in theaters?

This is what I'm trying to explain to "mego joe". It is the casual moviegoer who makes or breaks these films. These people don't share the same perspective we comic fans do. Hence, as I've already stated previous times, certain accomodations have to be made.

I thought The Phantom captured the comic strip. It looked just like it. On the other hand, when I saw it on vhs when it first came out, my non-comic fan brother went, "Why the hell does he wear a purple thight costume in the jungle?"(I guess he was also more fond of the more intimadating looking sculptured Bat suit), and unfortunately there were alot of reviewers who thought that way too. See what I mean?

....or Flash Gordon. It looked just like Alex Raymond's strip. But the film came a little too late, since Star Wars raised the bar(I thought the Filmation Flash Gordon cartoons did better in following the excitement of Star Wars). After looking at the slick armored Stormtroopers, sandal-wearing Hawkmen looked lame in comparison, I'm affraid. Darth Vader had replaced Ming The Merciless as the ultimate space opera villain by this time.

And so it all comes down to the fact that The Spirit has to compete with stuff like The Dark Knight and Iron Man. It has to have something that people will go, "hey, that looks interesting and different", and I have met people who have said something along those lines.

There is nothing wrong with going retro or doing it retro-like. Case in point; The Untochoubles, Roger Rabbit, Terry Gilliam's Brazil, or Tim Burton's Batman(also the animated series). They were all retro, each in a different aspect, and at the same time offered something refreshing with a unique style.

I suppose I could add Dick Tracy to that list as well, but, since there are people who think The Spirit should have been done ala Dick Tracy, I think the last thing The Spirit film needs is for people to immediately point out and say that it looks like Dick Tracy, because the film has to make it clear to the general audience that this is not a Dick Tracy-imitated film, since both properties are crime-detective adventures.


P.S. The Legend of The Lone Ranger will finally be released on dvd next week, I believe. Not a terribly good film, but I think fans might find it a nice little guilty pleasure the same way as The Beastmaster or even Flash Gordon.

Here's the thing. I'll take an accurate portrayal and a good movie over an inaccurate portrayal that panders to a modern sensibility any day.

My interest is in making accurate and faithful movies that are good, not just good movies.

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

....This is what I'm trying to explain to "mego joe". It is the casual moviegoer who makes or breaks these films. These people don't share the same perspective we comic fans do. Hence, as I've already stated previous times, certain accomodations have to be made.

And, as we've stated... just as many times... why can't fans of the source material be able to get a film that caters to THEM, as well as to 'casual moviegoers'?

This seems to be the question that stupifies the Miller fanbase...

Why can't he make a film that attracts an audience, using his Millerisms... and still actually make a film where Eisner's fans feel like they can be just as excited as Miller's fans?

How does this seem like so much to ask?


And, the blanket answer is predictablly going to be "You don't know that it's not going to be faithful"... even though every single piece of new info that comes out is further and further removed from Eisner's ideas. Today, for instance, the quote arrived from Sam Jackson that his character MADE the Spirit...?

And, all the Miller fans can seem to answer is "who cares? I don't care about Eisner, so it all looks great to me!".



Great respect for Eisner's legacy Miller is promoting to a new audience here...

 

[rogue trooper]

This seems to be the question that stupifies the Miller fanbase...

Why can't he make a film that attracts an audience, using his Millerisms... and still actually make a film where Eisner's fans feel like they can be just as excited as Miller's fans?

How does this seem like so much to ask?

Well, I'm also an Eisner fan, and so far I like how the film is looking.

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

I think it LOOKS good, too.

It's "Visually stunning", as has been said countless times as the generic, coverall compliment.

I like the cinematography. I like the costumes (except the Nazi uniform and the samurai outfit). I like the colors and the actors and the 'sets'.

None of these have anything to do with Eisner's stories or ideals or concepts... so what, as an Eisner fan, do you find attractive? I'm asking because you seem to see something that no one on any message board, including the Will Eisner site, seem to be able to see.

Indestructible "cartoon" characters are a far cry from a man who pushes past his circumstances to make a difference.

Having a problem with the ladies isn't having pheremone powers that force all of the ladies to have a problem with the man...

A criminal mastermind whose face isn't seen is definitely not a lunatic who plays dress up in bizarre getups whose face is seen more than the Spirit's in all of the promotion.

And, there are a LOT of things like this, that are the opposite of Eisner.

I WANT to like this. I WANT to be excited by this.

A big budget Spirit film, being done by a guy who knows the source material???

This should be an Eisner fan's best moment.

And, all we seem to be told is "well, you're screwed... but general audiences will love it. Get over it".


"Essence" my rear end...

Denny is an average guy who pushes past himself to protect others.

He's not supposed to be the indestructible man.

With sex powers.

 

[mego joe]

I think it LOOKS good, too.

It's "Visually stunning", as has been said countless times as the generic, coverall compliment.

I like the cinematography. I like the costumes (except the Nazi uniform and the samurai outfit). I like the colors and the actors and the 'sets'.

None of these have anything to do with Eisner's stories or ideals or concepts... so what, as an Eisner fan, do you find attractive? I'm asking because you seem to see something that no one on any message board, including the Will Eisner site, seem to be able to see.

Indestructible "cartoon" characters are a far cry from a man who pushes past his circumstances to make a difference.

Having a problem with the ladies isn't having pheremone powers that force all of the ladies to have a problem with the man...

A criminal mastermind whose face isn't seen is definitely not a lunatic who plays dress up in bizarre getups whose face is seen more than the Spirit's in all of the promotion.

And, there are a LOT of things like this, that are the opposite of Eisner.

I WANT to like this. I WANT to be excited by this.

A big budget Spirit film, being done by a guy who knows the source material???

This should be an Eisner fan's best moment.

And, all we seem to be told is "well, you're screwed... but general audiences will love it. Get over it".


"Essence" my rear end...

Denny is an average guy who pushes past himself to protect others.

He's not supposed to be the indestructible man.

With sex powers.

A second to all of that!

 

[mego joe]

Today, for instance, the quote arrived from Sam Jackson that his character MADE the Spirit...?

Y'know, someone at Lion's Gate needs to put a gag order on EVERYONE involved with this film, b/c every time Jackson, Miller or some other uniformed person involved with the film talks about it the film just sounds worse and worse.

Remember Jamie King's quote about Miller's ability and the film, to me it sounded like she thought Miller created the Spirit.

 

[rogue trooper]

I WANT to like this. I WANT to be excited by this.

You could, if you allow yourself to be more open minded about what Miller is trying to do in captivating modern moviegoers and introduce them to The Spirit in a contemporary fashion, since being contemporary was something Will Eisner always strived for.

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

Not the issue, and you know it.

It's why he can't be bothered to 'captivate' fans of the Spirit while 'captivating' a new audience with some minor updates.

Maybe, he just isn't talented enough as a screenwriter/director to pull something like that off... but, don't worry... I don't expect you to actually admit that.

It just continually gets reinforced as fact with every single lack of explaination to the question.

 

[rogue trooper]

It's why he can't be bothered to 'captivate' fans of the Spirit while 'captivating' a new audience with some minor updates.

Maybe, he just isn't talented enough as a screenwriter/director to pull something like that off... but, don't worry... I don't expect you to actually admit that.

...or maybe it's because "fans of the Spirit" want the film to also have The Spirit drive/fly the autoplane, or you also want Orang The Talking Ape to appear in the film, maybe you also want Glob The Caveman to show up. Yep, let's have all that in the movie so audiences keep away from it. Is that it?

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

It just continually gets reinforced as fact with every single lack of explaination to the question.

Quoted for truth.

Predictable. You are so utterly predictable, Rogue Trooper.

To answer your completely juvenile question... "YEP! That's what we all want... an overblown, out of proportion retrospective look at decades worth of material crammed into a 2 hour film".

Glad you asked, so I could change my mind from merely being willing to settle for hoping the film would be about a cop who dates the Commisioner's daughter, and is thought to be dead, so he uses it to his advantage, and without the advantage of powers, wages war on the criminal element of his city.

And, once again when trying to discuss THAT... you have no damn answer, aside from baiting anyone and everyone who doesn't just mindlessly agree with you, so you turn this forum into romper room.

Miller CAN'T make a -semi-faithful adaptation without losing audience members is what you are actually proving.

So the flaw is either in his screenwriting ability, or lack thereof...

Or, it's in Eisner's work.

You claim to be a fan of both, so which one is the guilty party?

 

[rogue trooper]

Juvenile, huh? Dude, you're the one making a big deal about "sex powers" (without yet seeing how it actually all plays out in the film), as well as Octopus' unhidden face and his Nazi uniform. Boo-hoo. All because it has not been shown in a comic page before. That's juvenile, my friend, so don't even go there.


There are no gulity parties. There's just your lack of understanding that in translating certain properties to the screen it requires quite a bit of creative input. Eisner understood this. Why can't you?

 

[mego joe]

Actually, the whole concept of 'sex powers' no matter how it's played out is juvenile. That should be a no brainer. It's completely ridiculous.

And actually what the DrawerofDeadPeople is mocking (decades of work all crammed into one film) IS exactly what Miller is doing. He's got HOW MANY female characters in this film? I'm guessing their only story purpose is to show us the 'sex powers' and how they work.

In Eisner's original work all these characters had their own story. But Miller is jamming them all into one big mish mash. I question that.

 

[Ziggyman]

Actually, the whole concept of 'sex powers' no matter how it's played out is juvenile. That should be a no brainer. It's completely ridiculous.

And actually what the DrawerofDeadPeople is mocking (decades of work all crammed into one film) IS exactly what Miller is doing. He's got HOW MANY female characters in this film? I'm guessing their only story purpose is to show us the 'sex powers' and how they work.

In Eisner's original work all these characters had their own story. But Miller is jamming them all into one big mish mash. I question that.

...You don't know that...

 

[mego joe]

Juvenile, huh? Dude, you're the one making a big deal about "sex powers" (without yet seeing how it actually all plays out in the film), as well as Octopus' unhidden face and his Nazi uniform. Boo-hoo. All because it has not been shown in a comic page before. That's juvenile, my friend, so don't even go there.


There are no gulity parties. There's just your lack of understanding that in translating certain properties to the screen it requires quite a bit of creative input. Eisner understood this. Why can't you?

The thing is Miller isn't being creative. He regurgitating what he ALWAYS does. That's not creativity, that's LACK of creativity. If his 'creativity' is "Sex Powers" you've got to ask yourself if that's really the best idea he could come up with. The very notion is stupid beyond belief. It's what a 13 year old boy in the throes of pubertity would come up with. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Wanting the Octopus's face to remain hidden is not juvenile. It would only be juvenile if it was the sole reason someone hated the film. But that's not the case. There are numerous reason that us Eisner fans are criticizing the film. We could all handle that one change if that was it, but there just appear to be too many changes and stupid ideas like 'sex powers' and a super-soldier serum-like invulnerability. YOu can't tell me that the 'sex powers' and the chemically induced 'thoughness' are some creative 'modern updating' to make the characte relevant. If anything they detract from the character instead of enhance him. It suddenly becomes that there's nothing really inherently special about Denny. It's the drugs that make the man.

 

[mego joe]

...You don't know that...

I know that Silken Floss, Sand Saref, Lorelei (Rox), Plaster of Paris are all in this film. We already know that Silken is working with the Octopus. We also know that Sand Saref has her storyline. Is she working with the Octopus as well? Are Lorelei and Plaster throwaways for fans to go 'oh, that character is from the comics,' or is their purpose to show how the stupid 'sex powers' work.

 

[Ziggyman]

Have you seen Ocean's Thirteen...?

Matt Damon's character, while in disguise, put some sort of chemical on his neck...It made him irresistible and crap...Like it made women...Feel...Funny, for lack of a better word...

This is basically what The Spirit will have I presume...Just not to that degree...

...Is it really that far fetched...?

 

[Ziggyman]

...Ah...It was a pheromone patch...!

It was used to seduce someone so the heist could fall through...

 

[theMan-Bat]

Actually, the whole concept of 'sex powers' no matter how it's played out is juvenile. That should be a no brainer. It's completely ridiculous.

It is ridiculous, and untrue. Nether Miller or Macht stated that the Spirit has sex powers, or his pheromones have been altered into a superpower. All Macht said was, "for some reason he has some extra level of pheromone attraction."