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Nicolas Cage on Ghost Rider 2

this one has got to be real dark to be fair, all the baddies came off as being pretty weak in the film
 
where in that entire post did i give a reason justifying their quick deaths? i was actually agreeing with you that they did not get the action they should have gotten.

You missed my point, I wasnt questioning you, I was saying MSJ's excuse was lame. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Some of us believe that nobody stands a chance against Ghost Rider, so eliminating them quickly makes total sense. I would rather see GR kick the crap out these elementals quick and easy than see him loose for even a fraction of a second.

The Blackheart stuff could have had more yes, but the others. I'm happy they were disposed of quickley.
 
Some of us believe that nobody stands a chance against Ghost Rider, so eliminating them quickly makes total sense. I would rather see GR kick the crap out these elementals quick and easy than see him loose for even a fraction of a second.

The Blackheart stuff could have had more yes, but the others. I'm happy they were disposed of quickley.

All that is true, but they still could've found a way to fit more action in. Like in the Blackheart scene...like you said.

Regardless of buying trees and all that, most of the money went to developoing the cg. thats done now, so if they have a similar budget, things should be much better 2nd time around. imo
 
All that is true, but they still could've found a way to fit more action in. Like in the Blackheart scene...like you said.

Regardless of buying trees and all that, most of the money went to developoing the cg. thats done now, so if they have a similar budget, things should be much better 2nd time around. imo

Should be. The threats definitely need to be more threatening as well.
 
All that is true, but they still could've found a way to fit more action in. Like in the Blackheart scene...like you said.

Regardless of buying trees and all that, most of the money went to developoing the cg. thats done now, so if they have a similar budget, things should be much better 2nd time around. imo

As long as there ain't any silly crossovers in it...
 
Some of us believe that nobody stands a chance against Ghost Rider, so eliminating them quickly makes total sense. I would rather see GR kick the crap out these elementals quick and easy than see him loose for even a fraction of a second.

The Blackheart stuff could have had more yes, but the others. I'm happy they were disposed of quickley.

This is exactly how i felt about the hidden, they were there to slow GR down while Blackheart looked for the contract, nothing more, so i was glad to see them not last long.

But yeah the Blackheart fight should have been better.
 
Well the entire 3 minutes that they collectively slowed down GR with doesn't really add up to much if you ask me.

Goons and Cronies to me are an opportunity for a director to showcase the powers of his protagonist. Other than the air elemental, there was no creativity or memorable baddie death scenes in those movies.

First one, punch, chain wrap, dead.
2nd one, twirl chain around, dead.
3rd one, 1 second hellfire blast, dead.

Hell even Ang Lee's surreal and very long Incredible Hulk had better fights than Ghost Rider.
 
I see the point of FH and AVEIT, but I have to agree with MS. If the 3 elementals were just meant to slow down GR and give him some baddies to quickly dispose of, then I dont think they were supposed to be presented the way they were in the movie.

If you're gonna introduce baddies with specific abilities and characterizations, you better use them. It doesn't make sense to hype and set-up characters, and not make a follow through on what was set-up.

I mean, these guys were introduced as having control of specific elements. Presenting such to an audience automatically makes the audience expect that powers very much related to the villain's prefered element will be seen later on in the film. So when GR fights the earth guy, were all naturally expecting to see the earth guy use his earth powers. Not drive a truck into him. Heck, they could've used your average thug to do that.

What I'm driving at here is that the set-ups for the movie were really bad. We'd be presented with one thing, and not have a follow through later on, leaving the audience hanging and scratching their heads.

If Blackheart's goons were really just meant to slow GR down and make him dispose of them really quick, then MSJ just should've made these guys the average henchmen working for the bigger boss. Hollow and chracterless baddies that were meant to merely be nuances to the protagonist. At least in that way, the really quick fight scenes would've been quite understandable.
 
I see the point of FH and AVEIT, but I have to agree with MS. If the 3 elementals were just meant to slow down GR and give him some baddies to quickly dispose of, then I dont think they were supposed to be presented the way they were in the movie.

If you're gonna introduce baddies with specific abilities and characterizations, you better use them. It doesn't make sense to hype and set-up characters, and not make a follow through on what was set-up.

I mean, these guys were introduced as having control of specific elements. Presenting such to an audience automatically makes the audience expect that powers very much related to the villain's prefered element will be seen later on in the film. So when GR fights the earth guy, were all naturally expecting to see the earth guy use his earth powers. Not drive a truck into him. Heck, they could've used your average thug to do that.

What I'm driving at here is that the set-ups for the movie were really bad. We'd be presented with one thing, and not have a follow through later on, leaving the audience hanging and scratching their heads.

If Blackheart's goons were really just meant to slow GR down and make him dispose of them really quick, then MSJ just should've made these guys the average henchmen working for the bigger boss. Hollow and chracterless baddies that were meant to merely be nuances to the protagonist. At least in that way, the really quick fight scenes would've been quite understandable.

Actually, from what I remember, the baddies didn't have control on the elements; they were merely hiding within them. This of course means there was nothing really to follow up on as they were just henchmen. Demons who escaped from hell and were hiding on earth like pathetic losers. They weren't set up to be that powerful and therefor should have been disposed of quickly, which they were.
 
Actually, from what I remember, the baddies didn't have control on the elements; they were merely hiding within them. This of course means there was nothing really to follow up on as they were just henchmen. Demons who escaped from hell and were hiding on earth like pathetic losers. They weren't set up to be that powerful and therefor should have been disposed of quickly, which they were.

Hmm. Well, if it was MSJ's intention to present the three elementals as mere henchmen to be quickly disposed of, I don't think that he was successful since most people didn't see it that way. Exactly the same way most people didn't get Nic Cage's idea of JB eating jellybeans to ward off the devil. Besides the set-ups, I believe the presentation of certain ideas was pretty flawed and didn't get across to the audience the way they were supposed to.
 
Actually, from what I remember, the baddies didn't have control on the elements; they were merely hiding within them. This of course means there was nothing really to follow up on as they were just henchmen. Demons who escaped from hell and were hiding on earth like pathetic losers. They weren't set up to be that powerful and therefor should have been disposed of quickly, which they were.

If they were rebel angels, they'd have to have some balls to stand up to Heaven. All rebel angels in the Marvel universe have some fighting ability...Uriel is very powerful; even the two rebel Angels Vraniel and Emmael toasted a powerful Lucifer with their abilities; Kazaan was ruthless and bloodthirsty.

Besides, if the point was to 'slow' Ghost Rider down...they failed. If the point of them was to showcase Ghost Rider's abilities, that failed too. So what was the point of them? Why even give them a backstory when these generic bad guys could have just been easily disposed of like Batman thugs without an afterthought?

The point is, there just wasn't enough action in the movie...there just wasn't enough screentime or memorable villains or fights, and worst of all, there just wasn't enough Ghost Rider onscreen.
 
So what was the point of them? Why even give them a backstory when these generic bad guys could have just been easily disposed of like Batman thugs without an afterthought?

Exactly.

Hit the nail right on the head there bro!
 
Hmm. Well, if it was MSJ's intention to present the three elementals as mere henchmen to be quickly disposed of, I don't think that he was successful since most people didn't see it that way. Exactly the same way most people didn't get Nic Cage's idea of JB eating jellybeans to ward off the devil. Besides the set-ups, I believe the presentation of certain ideas was pretty flawed and didn't get across to the audience the way they were supposed to.

If they were rebel angels, they'd have to have some balls to stand up to Heaven. All rebel angels in the Marvel universe have some fighting ability...Uriel is very powerful; even the two rebel Angels Vraniel and Emmael toasted a powerful Lucifer with their abilities; Kazaan was ruthless and bloodthirsty.

Besides, if the point was to 'slow' Ghost Rider down...they failed. If the point of them was to showcase Ghost Rider's abilities, that failed too. So what was the point of them? Why even give them a backstory when these generic bad guys could have just been easily disposed of like Batman thugs without an afterthought?

The point is, there just wasn't enough action in the movie...there just wasn't enough screentime or memorable villains or fights, and worst of all, there just wasn't enough Ghost Rider onscreen.

But they did slow GR down, or at least served a purpose. Gressell tested GR's new found powers and let Blackheart see what he was up against. Abigor was able to distract GR enough so that Blackheart could observe and find the person JB cared about most. Wallow slowed GR down before his confrontation with Blackheart so he didnt have much time before the sun came up, during their fight. The Hidden did serve a purpose.
 
the only purpose the hidden served, was wasting money on cgi that they could have used on GR or a decent looking blackheart.
 
Agreed. Human characters could have served this purpose just as easily I don't care if GR killed them or not. Save the CG $$ for a better last baddie fight.
 
I really don't buy that explanation and nobody else should either. Compared to the other lame deaths in the movie, you can tell they had no money left for action. He could have controlled not only "sand" but melt into any sort of rock, granite, gravel, whatever. Even without special effects, the elemental angel didn't even TRY to lay a punch or defense. Ghost Rider could have made the fight more cooler...he ended it quickly like he did the others.

Reason: They ran out of money!

I didn`t know you were on the production. You were the assitant producer weren`t you?

It has been stated by MSJ in the commentary that Sony told him not to use the rock one as a big villain coz of the sandman in sm3. You might say "He was bound to use that excuse to cover the truth!!!" But that doesn`t even make sense. MSJ enjoyed making GR and would prob like to make a sequel, why then would he slander the company he made the first film with then? He could easily have admittedf they didn`t have the budget and put a spin on it to still make the film look good. Lying and blaming sony would make no sense and would be an unlikely thing for him to do.
 
Agreed. Human characters could have served this purpose just as easily I don't care if GR killed them or not. Save the CG $$ for a better last baddie fight.

This i agree with, the final fight should have been much better. But it wasnt, so, we'll have to wait and see if a sequel happens to see possible improvements.
 
I didn`t know you were on the production. You were the assitant producer weren`t you?

It has been stated by MSJ in the commentary that Sony told him not to use the rock one as a big villain coz of the sandman in sm3. You might say "He was bound to use that excuse to cover the truth!!!" But that doesn`t even make sense. MSJ enjoyed making GR and would prob like to make a sequel, why then would he slander the company he made the first film with then? He could easily have admittedf they didn`t have the budget and put a spin on it to still make the film look good. Lying and blaming sony would make no sense and would be an unlikely thing for him to do.

Yes, that is clear to us all. But MS' point is that if Sony gave that condition to MSJ, MSJ could've presented the Earth elemental in a way that doesn't conflict with Sandman. There are so many ways to do that.

MS wasn't saying that MSJ was lying, he just said that thats a lame reason to not make better use of the character, cuz as I've mentioned, there are so many ways to use Grissel and not make him look like Sandman. Now for all I know, maybe MSJ did tell that to Sony, but Sony still declined. If thats the case, well, we're all aware that Sony gave MSJ a lot of restrictions.
 
I didn`t know you were on the production. You were the assitant producer weren`t you?

It has been stated by MSJ in the commentary that Sony told him not to use the rock one as a big villain coz of the sandman in sm3. You might say "He was bound to use that excuse to cover the truth!!!" But that doesn`t even make sense. MSJ enjoyed making GR and would prob like to make a sequel, why then would he slander the company he made the first film with then? He could easily have admittedf they didn`t have the budget and put a spin on it to still make the film look good. Lying and blaming sony would make no sense and would be an unlikely thing for him to do.

MSJ ran out of money, plain and simple...it was bad money management. This is the guy who spent $150,000 on a fake tree...use CG to cut out kangaroos and eucalyptus trees because America for some reason doesn't have any grassy hills, cheap farm lands to shoot, or oak trees.

His excuse in this case, was Sony's SM3...the result was a pitiful action sequence in which he was forced to kill off the Sand elemental quickly. MSJ will conveniently blame the Studio in this case, but it wasn't Sony that limited him, it was his own lack of creativity and lack of budget that he already blew. The fact of the matter is, any fight that the Earth elemental would be involved in, would essentially include Ghost Rider.

MSJ said in another interview a close up shot of Ghost Rider costs $50,000 and a wide shot costs $100,000. When you count all those zeros you realize why the fights were so lame. Besides he said it himself in an interview:

IGN Interview:

"I think one of my regrets for this movie [was that] Ghost Rider got so expensive himself, [so] it kind of cut away from some of the action," says Johnson. "I wish we had a lot more action than we do. And so for the second one, now that that's all built, that will bring the cost down on Ghost Rider and you can put more money into the fights, into the creatures. I mean, you'd like to see hell unleashed, do the same thing that Guillermo [del Toro] has done with the second Hellboy -- just hundreds of monsters and just really have some fun with it. You don't need to do the origin again, you don't need to do any of that. And the love story, I wouldn't do any of that. I would make it much more about him fighting everything that the devil throws in his way. We spent a lot of money designing the fire, the CG fire, and the skull and all that, and now that's all banked, so it does help."

http://movies.ign.com/articles/794/794755p1.html

And he also says:

"There's never everything you want, you always want more. It's tough because you can't shoot it like a normal movie. Every time there's a close-up of Ghost Rider it's gonna cost you $50,000. If it's a wide shot it's $100,000. You always want more coverage than you have. It's not like a normal movie because your hero is a special effect. It's a very expensive character and that's why it's been so tough to pull off."

http://www.movieweb.com/news/59/16159.php

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To think how many more Ghost Rider action scenes there could have been if they didnt spend it on CG'ing Australian grasslands of their kangaroos and eucalyptus trees, makes me a little bitter.

So lets say MSJ isn't sugar coating it...and the fight between GR and the Earth elemental was canned because of legal reasons...whats his excuse for the lame fight between him and the water elemental...did DC sue because of Aquaman?
 
I hadn't read those comments from MSJ before. Thanks, Midnight.

I do wonder whether they wound up saving money at all by filming in Australia.

:yay:
 
Thats the unsolved question really. I remember them saying the bar scene was actually filmed in multiple studios...it's just bad organization if you ask me.
 
^There was a bit of bad organisation and poor spending on the movie, and this effected they way the movie turned out unfortunately.

But its done now, we can only hope if we get a sequel, the budget is handled with more care.
 
Us GR fans want perfection from our movie makers. I know MSJ treid his best to make something special and in someways he succeeded and in others he failed, but at least like Flamehead said once, we got to see Ghost Rider in the big screen...how *****ing cool is that?

How many other people can say they saw their virtually unknown childhood superhero realized so perfectly (visually speaking) like MSJ's Ghost Rider?

I have to hand it to him in that sense that he didn't screw up the look of Ghost Rider one bit. The hellcycle was great, the flame effects were excellent. Like Nicolas Cage said, if this movie is darker and has more action, we are up for a great ride.
 
That's very true. There are things in the movie I hate, but when he's standing there in the jail cell, in his trademark spiked leathers, surrounded by unconscious creeps, I always get a goofy grin on my face.

And Cage's take on the direction of any sequel makes me hope he returns.

:yay:
 

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