• Xenforo Cloud has upgraded us to version 2.3.6. Please report any issues you experience.

No! Japan insists on changing WW2 history!

That's the problem in Japan, most people don't care about World War II, and the people that do are right wingers, not unlike Neo-Nazis in Germany.

Obama really should grill Abe's ass about this.
 
Honor is a great thing until it won't allow you to acknowledge the truth.
 
Japan's modern-day view on World War 2 is an atrocity heaped upon an atrocity. It's not just the government; the general cultural outlook of Japan also sees it that way. If there is some progressive movement in Japan to recognize that, yes, they were the bad guys in WW2, it's virtually invisible.

That stated, a lot of anime and other cultural artifacts from there also express that pro-Axis point of view, so our lives would be pretty boring if we steadfastly held fast to our own beliefs as well.
 
I blame McArthur for that one.
I wouldn't just blame McArthur. When I get back from work I can really get into the massive history as to why I think Japan is the way it is and why they view World War II so vastly different than Germany does. But really the whole idea behind the occupation of Japan IMO is what has caused it.
 
This is off topic, but I don't know where else to state this.....

Hopefully, Japan cracks open the history books and remembers what they were. Since the United States doesn't have the stones to fight evil with evil going up against ISIS, let Abe and Japan unleash on these sub-human terrorists. I've long said that terrorism can be beaten, but in order to do so one most be willing to go to the dark side. Provided Obama doesn't stand in Japan's way, ISIS may have just f'ed with the wrong people.
 
Japan doesn't even have an army it can send outside its own borders. If there was another war between the Koreas, they'd have to change a major international law just to send troops across the sea to help their allies. Japan has money that can be used to fund the war against ISIS, so maybe they can provide funding and weapons to the Kurds in a way that the West cannot, but that's about it.

That stated, though I absolutely deplore Japan's WW2 record of atrocities and its cultural position on those atrocities, I really think Japan needs to be able to have a standing army once again. It would help their economy, and also it will be good for the West as well to have a friendly military power in a region that includes China, North Korea and several large and wealthy (albeit relatively peaceful) Muslim nations.
 
While Japan should have a standing army, Article 9 in their constitution is highly supported by the people there.
 
While Japan should have a standing army, Article 9 in their constitution is highly supported by the people there.


Agreed, but if terrorists keep taking Japanese lives abroad, that attitude might change.
 
Agreed, but if terrorists keep taking Japanese lives abroad, that attitude might change.
If the constant provocations by China and North Korea haven't changed that attitude, I doubt ISIS will.
 
If the constant provocations by China and North Korea haven't changed that attitude, I doubt ISIS will.


Except that I don't recall China or North Korea killing any Japanese people recently. In addition to Japanese people in the Middle East (few as they may be) being targetted, what else could happen is that some sectors of the Muslim majorities in places like Malaysia and Indonesia (who already have a dim view of Han Chinese as being basically the Asian equivalent of decadent Westerners) becoming more militant, resulting in violence (organized or not) against "Westernized" Asians, which will most target Han Chinese at first, but it won't be hard for them to make the conceptual leap to Japanese people as well.
 
China actually encroaches onto what Japan sees as their territory all the time and North Korea has kidnapped and killed Japanese citizens (far more than ISIS).
 
That's the problem in Japan, most people don't care about World War II, and the people that do are right wingers, not unlike Neo-Nazis in Germany.

They deny knowing the start of war with US but most Japanese tourists go straight to the Pearl Harbor Memorial.

:whatever:
 
Japan has the history of brutal sexual cruelty to women.


Surely you can't be serious. Not all those honorable ancestral warriors, who were wonderfully entertained by the generosity of the many comfort women they visited in their peacekeeping and trading missions throughout Asia in the 1930s and 1940s.





Yes, that is sarcasm. I know Japan is one of the most valuable members of the somewhat shaky alliance of civilized countries in this world, but their actions during WW2, and even worse the subsequent reaction to it of the generations that came after from a historical, education and cultural perspective, continue to mar my opinion of that nation.
 
A couple of long posts I wrote on another forum a while ago as to why war guilt in Germany and Japan are so vastly different:

The first thing that you’re wrong on is the fact that Japan is reluctant to admit guilt. Japan has admitted guilt and they have done so for decades now. They have apologized to Burma, Korea, China, Australia, the United States, etc. And they have admitted to and apologized for atrocities such as the Nanking Massacre, the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, their poor treatment of POWs, imperialism, etc. And they have acknowledged Unit 731 as well, the reason why they haven’t gone extensive with their apologies to Unit 731 (and in my opinion the reason why it doesn’t get as much attention as it should) is because unlike Nazi human experimentation, the actions committed by Unit 731 weren’t very well documented and what little documentation there was, got destroyed. The only evidence we have of Unit 731 is testimonies of those involved and their victims. And finally, with the controversy with the text books that glossed over Japan’s atrocities, those books are essentially shunned by Japanese public schools and no credible school has accepted them (thus making the Chinese/Korean reaction, totally overblown).

And Japanese society has accepted war guilt as well. Japan’s culture is actually very pacifist as a result of their recognition of Japan’s imperialist past and the crimes their government committed. The people actually celebrate Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution and the majority of Japanese people do not want to see it done away with. Japanese academia is more than willing and fully embraces teaching their students about Japan’s war crimes. Now there are things that Japan could do better with their apology efforts such as Japanese politicians not visiting shrines that are dedicated to their war dead, their education boards not approving poor history books, and finding better ways to make up for Unit 731, but to say that Japan’s efforts in history education are lacking and that they’re reluctant to admit guilt is just dead wrong.

Now onto the second part, how war guilt is perceived by Japan and Germany and why it seems that Germany accepts more guilt than Japan does. There are two reasons for this and neither one of them have anything to do with race like you’re implying.

The first reason is the easiest to explain, so I might as well just get it out of the way because it’s an incredibly simple reason: Germany started World War II. Even though Japan was attacking China since 1931 and went all out on China in 1937, historians pinpoint the start of World War II with Germany’s invasion of Poland in 1939. And the Allies, rightfully I might add, saw Germany as the bigger threat that needed to be dealt with first. So when taking into account that even the Germans accept that they started a war that killed over 70 million people and were seen as the major belligerent, they’re going to feel guilty about that.

The second reason is much more complex to where we now need to look into Cold War politics and the Allied occupational policies of Germany and Japan.

When Germany was occupied, it was divided up between four administrative zones governed by the militaries of the United States, United Kingdom, France, and the Soviet Union. This is knowledge that I’m more than certain that you’re familiar with. However, what most people really don’t look into is how the Allies were divided in that occupation.

The United States and United Kingdom were actually really conciliatory towards Germany. They saw occupation as an opportunity to rebuild Germany by punishing those responsible in the Nazi regime (the Nuremberg Trials), rebuild its government to prevent the reemergence of Nazi-styled authoritarianism, and restoring its economy to where it is a strong, active, vibrant and responsible member of the international community that would be a reliable trading partner for American and British commerce. And when the Cold War was brewing, the Americans and British saw Germany as a reliable ally in the fight against international Communism. The United States and United Kingdom, were willing to let bygones be bygones with Germany.

France and the Soviet Union on the other hand saw occupation as an opportunity to punish Germany. The French were humiliated with their easy defeat at the hands of the Nazis and the Soviets suffered the most casualties in World War II. Add in the fact that the French and Russians didn’t fare much better in previous wars (World War I and the Franco-Prussian War) against Germany either. They had no desire to see a revived Germany and wanted to see a Germany that was weak, humiliated, and severely punished.

And then came the division of Germany with the Soviets backing the Communist dominated German Democratic Republic (East Germany) and the Western powers backing the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany). The American and British zones were merged into the Bizone in 1947, the French however, didn’t merge their zone in the united military administration until 1949. The reason why the French didn’t join to form the Trizone two years later, was because of different views the French had with the occupation than the British and the Americans.

The French had significant leverage in negotiating against the Americans in regards to various Cold War policies. Because the Soviet Union was seen as the victor of World War II and the Great Depression severely damaged the reputation of capitalism, the French Communist Party was gaining some serious traction in France to the point where it looked like France was on the verge of succumbing to Communism through democratic means. This was unacceptable because France was seen as a vital ally to the Americans and British due to France’s geographic location (any expected liberation of Europe from the Soviets in a potential NATO/Warsaw Pact War was going to originate from France). Thus France, which had extremely nationalist tendencies following World War II thanks to Charles de Gaulle, wasn’t going to let the United States and United Kingdom do things that were politically unacceptable to both the French government and French people such as fully rebuilding Germany economically and militarily. In order to get the French onboard (to accept many things such as the unification of rebuilt West Germany, the European Defence Community, etc.), the Americans and British had to give in to French demands such as not rearming Germany, actually punishing Germany, and weaken Germany’s economic clout (a reason why organizations such as the European Coal and Steel Community were formed). On a side note that is pretty much unrelated, French leverage against the United States is actually the exact same reason why the United States supported French efforts in French Indochina following World War II, even though the United States was fundamentally opposed to colonialism.

French and Soviet efforts are pretty much why German culture pretty much accepts a lot of the guilt. And the Americans and British had no choice but to go along with it and support it in order to keep France content and secure in the non-Communist bloc.

Now let’s move onto the Allied occupation of Japan. Like with Germany, the United States and United Kingdom had the same occupational objectives with Japan: punish those responsible (the Tokyo Trials), rebuild the government to prevent the reemergence of militaristic authoritarianism, rebuild the economy to make Japan a reliable trading partner for the United States and United Kingdom, and make Japan a reliable ally against international Communism. Unlike Germany though, there wasn’t France and the Soviet Union getting in the way. The occupation of Japan was completely run by the United States with assistance from the British Commonwealth (United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and India). The United States had no desire to punish the people of Japan like what France and the Soviet Union wanted to do to Germany and its people. Just like how they wanted to run the occupation of Germany, even though Americans were angry over Pearl Harbor, the United States government was willing to let bygones be bygones with Japan and move forward to a prosperous future together.

If Japan were occupied the way Germany was (the Franco-Soviet way), we’d probably see Japan acting the same way Germany does in regards to their war crimes. And vice versa, if Germany was treated the same way Japan was (i.e. the Anglo-American way), Germany would probably be acting the way Japan is in regards to war guilt.

I think that unlike Japan, where the lack of civilian control of the military and the fall of capitalism in the Great Depression gave rise to Japan's militarist government, the West feels guilty for letting the Nazis rise in Germany.

The Nazis rose in Germany because on top of the Great Depression creating significant hardship in Germany, the Weimar Republic never had any legitimacy amongst the German people because they were the ones who accepted the Treaty of Versailles which the Allies imposed upon Germany. Even today it's recognized that the terms imposed by the United States, Italy, France, and the United Kingdom, were far too harsh on Germany. Without those harsh terms, perhaps Nazi Germany wouldn't have risen during the Great Depression, and I think the West recognizes this. The West also helped to give the Nazis legitimacy by doing things such as letting Berlin host the 1936 Olympics negotiating with the Nazis as opposed to treating them as the vile monsters that they are. We had the United Kingdom and France appease Germany several times until 1939, the United States played far too much of an isolationist role until it was far too late, and we essentially ignored the Holocaust while it was happening. And finally, to make the feeling of guilt even worse, for nations that were occupied by the Nazis (France, Greece, Benelux, etc.) and nations that were allied with the Nazis (Italy, Finland, Romania, etc.), they collaborated with the Nazis in their crimes.

Now compare that to Japan where the West never really tolerated Japan's advances to begin with. And the West was not responsible for giving legitimacy to Japan's actions nor were they responsible for the rise of Japan's militaristic government.

I think that degree of guilt the West most likely bears with Nazi Germany is why we focus more on Germany's crimes than we do with Japan's.

And then there is also a societal bias as well in favor of focusing on Germany's crimes than Japan's crimes. Again, this doesn't have anything to do with the Nazi's victims being primarily white and Japan's victims being primarily poor Asians. This is from personal experience as well where I have visited a concentration camp and my mother loves all this Holocaust **** (yes, I know I'm phrasing that oddly). There's a survival element attached to it, and society loves a good survival story. Even as the Nazis committed their horrible atrocities, Jews were hiding in attics or enduring the hardships of the concentration camps, and many of them lived to tell their tales. With the atrocities of Japan though, there really is no definitive "survivor's story," things such as the Nanking Massacre are stories of barbaric slaughter and nothing else. I think people in general would rather watch movies such as Schindler's List or listen to stories such as the Diary of Anne Frank as opposed to watching and listening to stories that come off as if they are from a XXX exploitation film.

People are also more familiar with Nazi atrocities because the Nazis took very meticulous records about their actions in World War II, we know almost everything about their actions because there are just so many primary sources from both Nazi Germany and its victims to give us a complete story. With Japan on the other hand, the Japanese Army did everything they could to destroy as much evidence as possible about their actions, thus we will never have a complete story of what Japan did in World War II. It's the reason why you have said (very accurately I might add), that things such as Unit 731 doesn't get enough attention.

And then there's the very simple reason that Nazis just make better villains than the Japanese. Just look at media like Indiana Jones, Inglorious Basterds, Captain America, Hellboy, Hellsing, etc. Nazis just fit the over the top stereotypical bad guy than the Japanese militarists do. Even today, Nazis make great villains. And after World War II, we moved onto the Communists, completely bypassing the Japanese.
 
I have trouble deciding whether one should characterize Japan as being pacifist or passivist.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"