The Dark Knight Rises No more origin stories in movies?

[ThePoisonPuppet]

Lets be honest, the basic everyday origin story in super hero movies, whether it be for a hero or a villain is getting tedious, old and it takes up valuable time from the rest of the movie.

Now the Dark Knight did have the origin story of Two Face, but the entire movie was more like the rise and fall of Harvey Dent rather then the typical way the first 15-30 minutes of a movie are spent on the concept of a character's transformation and the Joker's lack of origin story could almost be seen as a defining trait of the character.

But taking this into account do you think we are seeing the death (or at least transformation) of this standard part of a story in these movies or do you think now that there is things such as viral campaigns and pre-movie mini series that telling this part of the story can be set aside to be mostly done there and explained with only a few lines in the actual film?

On another note, in the next movie, whoever we might see as the villain, do you think they'll get the standard origin story or would you be annoyed if they did, or if its Catwoman for example would you rather see the movie start out with something like news paper headlines about a cat burgeler rather then the whole way she actually became Catwoman?

 

[tekken]

i think all the bad guys deserve an origin story. joker didn't get one cuz it fit his character to not have one...everyone else i think is ok to have an origin story.

 

[The Major]

Origins are needed, especially for characters who the audience don't know about.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

Origins are needed, especially for characters who the audience don't know about.

Scarecrow didn't get an origin story at all, and Rhas Al Ghul had a minimal background. They were there before Batman was.

 

[The Major]

Scarecrow didn't get an origin story at all, and Rhas Al Ghul had a minimal background. They were there before Batman was.

Ra's gave the audience some information to fill in the blanks.

Crane I agree should have had his origin fleshed out but we do know he's a corrupt, sadistic psychologist with a god complex. He only became Scarecrow once he was given fear toxin, though. That is an origin.

 

[Kryptonite]

I don't think that Nolan likes "creating" origin stories out of nothing, which is why his Batman Begins was pretty faithful to how most comics told the story. Bruce's parents get killed, he grows up bitter, rejects society, goes to the "east" to learn about everything, and comes back as Batman.

The Joker doesn't get an origin because as someone said, it makes sense to have him be this serial criminal without a past. But more to the point, there is no established Joker origin, and most of the "attempts" are pretty campy.

Even Two-face's origin is borderline camp, but they did their best to beef it up with Harvey's fall before he got burned by the gasoline.

I think it's important to have an origin or background on every character. It's hard to just have them show up in a "real world" like Nolans Gotham without people wondering how this happened

 

[strider]

Nope. All Batman for the third film, the badies are just there and are sick nasty waiting for their turn at Gotham and the bat.

 

[Mastodon123]

Theres been no origins at all for the villians in nolans series, except for Two-Face if were to count him as a villian.
having origins for the villians takes away from Batman's story. Look at the Batman series before Nolan's, it was more about the villians than Batman. Nolan's obviously learned from the other director's mistakes.

 

[CaptainClown]

scarecrow didn't have an origin story, rahs alluded to one, Joker makes up a bunch.

 

[The Major]

scarecrow didn't have an origin story, rahs alluded to one, Joker makes up a bunch.

Batman Begins was the origin for Scarecrow.

 

[CaptainClown]

He was doing that way before Batman Begins.

 

[The Major]

He was doing that way before Batman Begins.

It was Scarecrow's origin not Crane's.

 

[CaptainClown]

It was Scarecrow's origin not Crane's.

Scarecrow is pretty much Crane.

 

[The Major]

Scarecrow is pretty much Crane.

One does not equal the other until after BB, though.

 

[CaptainClown]

Crane was doing the same things he was doing in BB and in TDK. He is greedy and uses a scarecrow as his theme. He was doing it before BB and will do it after TDK. His character has not changed

 

[The Major]

Crane was doing the same things he was doing in BB and in TDK. He is greedy and uses a scarecrow as his theme. He was doing it before BB and will do it after TDK. His character has not changed

No, he wasn't.

Before Batman gave him fear gas Crane only used the Scarecrow mask in private on victims by pretending to be Scarecrow. He was a criminal but not an overt one while still being a real psychiatrist.

After the fear gas Crane truly believed he was Scarecrow, he didn't hide wearing it in public and was an overt criminal selling drugs to the Gotham underworld.

 

[CaptainClown]

Crane is a wanted criminal and is around a lot of fear toxins. I think he would keep his mask on for that reason alone since he is incorporating that with the drugs. In TDK he wasn't dillusional anymore and seemed very functional, similar to how he was in BB. Just now he doesn't have the luxury of hiding behind a nice job as a front.

Also he was an extreme criminal the whole time. He planned on gassing Gotham and was working for the mob. Also he had a fear dust weapon way before knowing about Batman. I am willing to bet money he would have had many ordeals where he used it for common crimes.

 

[The Major]

Crane is a wanted criminal and is around a lot of fear toxins. I think he would keep his mask on for that reason alone since he is incorporating that with the drugs.

He used it to scare patients, too. That's why the mobster was afriad of scarecrow after the fear has it. It wasn't a random phobia.

In TDK he wasn't dillusional anymore and seemed very functional, similar to how he was in BB. Just now he doesn't have the luxury of hiding behind a nice job as a front.

That was all he needed to assume the Scarecrow identity officially. It was the final step to being Scarecrow.

Also he was an extreme criminal the whole time. He planned on gassing Gotham and was working for the mob. Also he had a fear dust weapon way before knowing about Batman.

Crane was involved with that only as a scientist and liaison.

He didn't do anything overtly until TDK under the Scarecrow identity.

I am willing to bet money he would have had many ordeals where he used it for common crimes.

Having fear gas as a weapon and being the Scarecrow aren't the same thing. BB had him crossing over from being a normal criminal into a freak. That was the tipping point he needed to assume that identity permanently. That's all it takes to be an origin. It changes the status quo into giving the individual another identity permanently.

 

[CaptainClown]

Having fear gas as a weapon and being the Scarecrow aren't the same thing. BB had him crossing over from being a normal criminal into a freak. That was the tipping point he needed to assume that identity permanently. That's all it takes to be an origin.

Thats not a true origin though. An origin would be Crane was picked on as a kid so when he went to college he became a Doctor and studied elements in fear and because he lacked money for research he began working for crime lords to fund his projects.

That would be more of an origin, but Crane and Scarecrow are so similar that Scarecrow and crane are one in the same. The line "That's not my diagnosis." goes to show he is still very much Dr. Crane. We can't tell if the Scarecrow persona is even there. Crane and Scarecrow are one in the same and him overdosing on fear toxin didn't change anything.

 

[Changeling]

Origins are needed, especially for characters who the audience don't know about.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[MrWayne]

ef origin stories i wanna see more Batman whoopin ass and more grapple gun roof swinging...

 

[Changeling]

Why the hell would we have a Batman origin story in the third Batman film...

 

[The Major]

Thats not a true origin though.

It's still an origin.

An origin would be Crane was picked on as a kid so when he went to college he became a Doctor and studied elements in fear and because he lacked money for research he began working for crime lords to fund his projects.

That would be a full origin. We only got the part where Crane assumed the Scarecrow identity. It's still enough be considered an origin IMO.

That would be more of an origin, but Crane and Scarecrow are so similar that Scarecrow and crane are one in the same. The line "That's not my diagnosis." goes to show he is still very much Dr. Crane.

Crane now depends on it, though. He only became Scarecrow after specific events but the final event which made him become the criminal Scarecrow was the fear gas. Before that he was just Jonathon Crane.

We can't tell if the Scarecrow persona is even there.

True, but he still uses it as a criminal not his real identity.

Crane and Scarecrow are one in the same and him overdosing on fear toxin didn't change anything.

It was the catalyst he needed to become the Scarecrow officially.

 

[Changeling]

I think Major just owned CaptainClown

 

[CaptainClown]

It's still an origin.



That would be a full origin. We only got the part where Crane assumed the Scarecrow identity. It's still enough be considered an origin IMO.



Crane now depends on it, though. He only became Scarecrow after specific events but the final event which made him become the criminal Scarecrow was the fear gas. Before that he was just Jonathon Crane.



True, but he still uses it as a criminal not his real identity.



It was the catalyst he needed to become the Scarecrow officially.

I see we have gotten down to breaking down an argument. Not my style so oh well.

Dr. Crane if Batman had not interfered with his plans would have continued the same path. There is no indication that there was any severe change when he "adopted" the persona of Scarecrow. His mannerisms are the same and he has the same goals. A better way to think of it then is Dr. Crane is scarecrows secret alias. When he was caught, he didn't have to hide it anymore. He has always been a twisted SOB drugging the inmates of Arkham. Changing of a name is not character development if he is staying the same.

Maybe if in TDK Crane was speaking through lullabys severely demented then I might agree. BB would be in that case the birth of Scarecrow. However it wasn't the case. Crane was the same ol guy with the same ol tricks. Except this time he isn't in a position of power.

Crane also doesn't seem to depend on his mask. Like I said earlier, he is handling fear toxin. It is clear Crane is a chemist so him wearing some safety features would be expected. Also if I was going to get in a confrontation with a mob boss I pissed off, I would be prepared. If he didn't wear his mask then he would be victim to his toxin again.