First Avenger Non American Fans of Captain America

[Rage]

I was just curious as to how many non-american fans of Cap we have here on the forums interested in the character and the film?

The reason I ask, is there is some concern that this movie will ONLY do well domestically because of the name CAPTAIN AMERICA (hence... The First Avenger being added to the title)

Being a Canadian and having Cap as one of my top 3 heroes of all time, I wanted to know why other foreign readers/movie goers are interested in this character... and why will you go see this film? Is it solely because of the Avengers tie-in?

I really like the character for a couple reasons. First off is that I am facinated with WWII (probably because of Captain America) I love the nostalgia of the time and the very epic idea of the war. A couple "bad" countries try to team up and take over the world and the rest of the world bands together to stop this common threat. This was one of the reasons that I TOTALLY lost interest in the 90s movie.... they glossed over the 40s and tried to rush him to the 90s ASAP... bad move

I also love the "man out time" aspect of modern day cap. He's a very different person who's ideals and values are not what the people of today adhere to and at the same time, he was ahead of his time, being a really progressive thinker for the 40s.

I also love the fact that this man, while barely a Superhuman, demands the respect of other "mightier" heroes because of his ability to both think a good fight and never back down... no matter the odds.

 

[Webhead2006]

for me i am not that much of a cap fan. I havent read many books on cap, besides avengers and ultimates stuff. So for me i am curious to see how this film will turn out, plus how it leads into avengers film. Plus i think the character is pretty cool. There is so much they can do with it.

 

[Willi Berg]

I'm in Australia and growing up I never saw Captain America as a sign of American imperialism etc. etc.

I don't think many young people would think about that either. Maybe when they are older they would be more inclined to politicise him. But then again he's a superhero, a lot of people don't too much stock into that. Although I've heard the same criticisms levelled at Wonder Woman, guess the heroes that were borne out of WWII will get some of that criticism because it is a large part of their origins.

 

[rcazzy]

I used to get comics the whole time when younger, a fair few with Cap. I loved the idea of Cap, his character and his role in history in the war, and like Willi Berg, never saw him as a signifier of superiority,a s he claims himself, just portraying America as a great country which is just national pride which ties back into his character (Non-Ultimate dukeeness).

I'm very excited for the movie. Cap's a great hero with the possibility for a great period and character driven superhero film furthering the Marvel movieverse and how can anyone not like that?

 

[TheFuture]

I like Captain America because he's not a larger than life character, he's humble, works hard and is all about the team effort. He's not flash and he hasn't got an ego, but he'll always get the job done, I like to think of Cap as the Working Class man's superhero.

 

[holtz11]

When i was younger, the name Captain America didn't attract me, but i was a fan of Ron Lim at the time, and he started drawing his monthly title so i started reading it. Soon, i fell in love with Cap, he strives to represent what America could be, not what it is, and when he feels his government doesn't deserve his support, he wil strike out on his own. He is the ultimate leader in the field, and will always get the job done. Insecurity and doubt are not unknown to him, but as a true hero, he will always rise above them. He is in my top 3 of heroes for sure.

 

[Canis Sapiens]

I've never been a huge Cap fan myself, always found him too stoic, soft and old fashioned, you know? Too classic, as in something you admire more than love.

But I cannot lie, I think The Ultimates vol. 1 and 2 showed how fun and badass Cap can be, whilst keeping his old fashioned persona and playing it to make him more unique. IMO, Ultimate Cap is as cool as, say, John Wayne. He doesn't have doubts, he doesn't have ideology crisis, he doesn't apologize for being a good soldier.

And that's what I think is more appealing. You don't feel you're being cheated. He's an american (super)soldier first, and a superhero second. And always a badass. Hey, it works for me.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

exactly. 616 Cap is a very unimaginative and uninteresting posterboy of american patriotism. but the ultimate touch gave him a somewhat edgier personality that makes him likeable

 

[Canis Sapiens]

Yeah, it's like that guy who can be a d**ck sometimes, but he's so charismatic, effective and sincere that you can't help but like him, and try to understand his point of view, and why he acts like he does.

The John Wayne example comes to mind again. In the 70s, in the eyes of the young, radical, hippiesque crowd he was the symbol of a conservative, old America. I remember reading somewhere he went to an event in an University and the students, dressed as indians, prepared a protest. He just faced the crowd and they ended up playing a real life version of a Wild West playset. Everybody had fun and things ended in a light mood.

That is the kind of person Ultimate Cap reminds me. A guy that at first seems conservative and stubborn (and how wouldn't he be, coming from the 40s?), but that, when you come to know better, is just a no-nonsense fella with a strong sense of purpose. That happens to wear an American Flag and work for the USA government.

 

[BoredGuy]

I hate hate hate Ultimate Cap, Millar's not-so-subtle attempts at political allegories are becoming so tiresome...

Ult Cap, to me, is whats wrong with our country now, a "super" soldier who's cocky and thinks he's above reproach, and thinks America is just so much better than everywhere else.

Captain Xenophobe better not be anywhere near this movie.

 

[Canis Sapiens]

I don't think he thought he was above reproach or America was better than everywhere else... He was depicted as a more stubborn, cocky guy, I'll give you that, but he was capable of showing a very human and emotional side sometimes. You can feel his anger when he learns about Wasp being beaten by her husband. You can feel his sadness when he learns about his family members' fate or when he meets Bucky 50 years later.

And that complexity, IMO, is what makes him more interesting. He may not be as "likable" as the 616 Cap, but I think he's more real. He acts like an old, hardened soldier. And I sure as bad place would prefer to have Ult Cap than 616 Cap on my side in a bar fight.

 

[Deaths Head II]

I also hate Ultimate Cap. It seems the Ultimates mentality is that having super heroes be dukeebags is what makes them realistic. I would not want to live in a world where dukeebags like the Ultimates are considered "heroes."

 

[Canis Sapiens]

Thing is, you already live.

Think rappers, rockstars, famous businessmen, celebrities, Secret Service Agents... They're all considered "heroes" by a large portion of the population. Most of them are dukeebags. Sad but true.

Lennon was a hero to a lot of people. But he could be petty about his music and was tremendously jealous of McCartney. JFK and MLK all had their mistresses. Einstein was very sexist and treated his wife as a mix of a servant and a dog. Mother Teresa of Calcuta, while doing an incredible work to the most impoverished people, believed that through pain, people could expiate their sins. So... nobody's perfect. Not even the heroes.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not defending Ultimate Cap's or The Ultimates' behavior... but I just think that some of them are more interesting than their 616 counterparts. And I have no doubt that, if these superbeings were to exist in our reality, they would be a lot more like the Ultimates.

 

[Deaths Head II]

I think most of the 616 characters are flawed enough to be realistic. I feel Ultimates takes it to the point where it's ridiculous and it's impossible for me to like any of the characters.

For example, Antman in 616 was flawed enough to basically descend into madness and ended up abusing his wife. He then was on the brink of suicide but managed to recover and ended up redeeming himself.

With Ultimate Antman it felt like the writers were like "Antman? He's the guy who beat his wife right?" and started from there.

 

[Canis Sapiens]

Oh, but there's nothing realistic about a hero going insane. It's a huge cop-out. The hero doing bad things because he's insane is as safe and cliché as he doing bad things because he's possessed by aliens of the 5th dimension or because he's being manipulated by an artificial intelligence. He's not really to be blamed in those cases.

I think it's more realistic when the same guy is capable of doing heroic acts and horrible things, all by his own choices. It gets more complex, more adult, if you will. I think thematically The Ultimates are more in debt to the Watchmen comics than to the 616 Avengers.

I remember reading a Michael Caine interview in which he said that Superman is how America sees itself, and Batman is how America is seen by the rest of the world. I think the same thing could be said about 616 Cap and Ultimate Cap. It's curious how the majority of non-american fans seem to prefer Ult Cap over 616 Cap, while with the American fans it's the other way around.

I guess it's because we feel it's more honest when a guy wearing an American Flag as an uniform and calling himself "Captain America" acts unapologetically in defense of American interests... and feel is kind of BS when said character acts like he wants a world full of peace and love, with children of all nationalities holding hands together. That's why we can love "Team America" and despise the "GI Joe" movie (and yeah, I know the former is more of a satire than The Ultimates, but it's equally fun).

Don't know if I made myself clear, but what I want to tell is that for us, non-Americans, there's nothing wrong with a character like Captain America acting like a cocky American soldier sometimes. The idea that you guys can act like the World police, while not necessarily a good thing ethically, is part of our fascination with America. And can be a source for very good, complex and (why not?) entertaining storytelling.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Oh, but there's nothing realistic about a hero going insane. It's a huge cop-out. The hero doing bad things because he's insane is as safe and cliché as he doing bad things because he's possessed by aliens of the 5th dimension or because he's being manipulated by an artificial intelligence. He's not really to be blamed in those cases.

I think it's more realistic when the same guy is capable of doing heroic acts and horrible things, all by his own choices. It gets more complex, more adult, if you will. I think thematically The Ultimates are more in debt to the Watchmen comics than to the 616 Avengers.

I remember reading a Michael Caine interview in which he said that Superman is how America sees itself, and Batman is how America is seen by the rest of the world. I think the same thing could be said about 616 Cap and Ultimate Cap. It's curious how the majority of non-american fans seem to prefer Ult Cap over 616 Cap, while with the American fans it's the other way around.

I guess it's because we feel it's more honest when a guy wearing an American Flag as an uniform and calling himself "Captain America" acts unapologetically in defense of American interests... and feel is kind of BS when said character acts like he wants a world full of peace and love, with children of all nationalities holding hands together. That's why we can love "Team America" and despise the "GI Joe" movie (and yeah, I know the former is more of a satire than The Ultimates, but it's equally fun).

Don't know if I made myself clear, but what I want to tell is that for us, non-Americans, there's nothing wrong with a character like Captain America acting like a cocky American soldier sometimes. The idea that you guys can act like the World police, while not necessarily a good thing ethically, is part of our fascination with America. And can be a source for very good, complex and (why not?) entertaining storytelling.

this is so true (minus the fascination part)!

 

[MilkmanDan]

I think most of the 616 characters are flawed enough to be realistic. I feel Ultimates takes it to the point where it's ridiculous and it's impossible for me to like any of the characters.

I agree with that point regarding several Ultimate characters, Antman being the obvious example. However, I also feel that Ultimate Steve Rogers is judged harshly not because he's a particularly unlikeable person, but because 616 Steve Rogers' sets the bar ridiculously high with his saintlike goodness .

 

[Franklin Richards]

We've got US Agent for that.


Steve Rogers is the guy you invite home to meet your parents. He's not a dukee.



He's dreamy and perfect and I have a Man Crush on 616.

Ultimate Cap reminds me of Toby Keith. And I hate that guy.

 

[Canis Sapiens]

I agree with that point regarding several Ultimate characters, Antman being the obvious example. However, I also feel that Ultimate Steve Rogers is judged harshly not because he's a particularly unlikeable person, but because 616 Steve Rogers' sets the bar ridiculously high with his saintlike goodness .

I agree. Guy Gardner is a lot more unlikeable than Ultimate Steve Rogers and people don't complain about him.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Guy Gardner was an unlikeable dukee for years. Nobody liked him for the longest time. It took decades of time and some great writing to finally make his character begrudgingly likable.

 

[Canis Sapiens]

We've got US Agent for that.


Steve Rogers is the guy you invite home to meet your parents. He's not a dukee.



He's dreamy and perfect and I have a Man Crush on 616.

Ultimate Cap reminds me of Toby Keith. And I hate that guy.

You're probably American, am I right?

 

[Franklin Richards]

Indeed. I'm not trying to interfere with the thread. Just thought I'd pipe in with my American opinion.

 

[Canis Sapiens]

You're not interfering. It's nice to learn about the American fans opinion. And like I said, up until now, they kind of prove my point.

 

[shogunrua]

well I'm Portuguese living in the french speaking part of Switzerland. It won't affect me that Cap is an American (I actually like the comic book character). When I saw "Independance Day", I aknowledged all the pro american messages, but that didn't matter in my experience with the movie, because I wasn't seeing this movie craving for political/ideologic messages, but to see actions scenes and be entertained (I got the first but I have to say I was kind of bored). What I mean is that, when I'll go to the theater to see this movie, I'll expect a good action flick and have a good time after all this is just a movie.

 

[Canis Sapiens]

Yeah, I remember loving Rocky IV back in 1986 (hey, I was 14!) even though that film had a not-so-subtle patriotic message.