Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

[RustyCage]

Go back to that slow burn, dramatic noir storytelling. Don't go for the thrills and excitement of action and shock.

Riddler should be perfect for that.

Spoiler

Why did the flashback in this issue reflect Ledger scars, when in the past issues during this arc Joker had his normal smile?

Yeah, even throughout this issue alone that was inconsistent. I prefer the former, personally.

What I'm wondering is... what are we going to see next time?

Spoiler

Surgically 'fixed' face that looks kind of not right? A mask that is made of something other than his former skin? No face at all? (The last one would suck.)

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Hopefully a retcon. The no face thing was stupid.

 

[antsman41]

The best thing to come out of DOTF was the notion...

Spoiler

that Bruce knew or didn't know (but, was messing with it) Joker's identity. I thought that was pretty genius and a great idea for Batman to get the upper hand.

But, if Bruce does know; I wish we would have got him telling Joker the truth in the style of Lost In Translation. Se us readers don't know but they know between each other what name was said.

The other twist on the subject would be if Bruce doesn't know and was merely bluffing, than that was his best move he's laid on the Joker ever, ignoring TDKReturns.

I wish the whole arc would have been more based on that above idea of Snyder's. He would have been able to play with Batman's checkmate on the Joker and then truly given us the epitome battle between the two in current comics.

Just think if the aftermath of DOTF wasn't about if the family knows too much about Bruce's schemes but more along...

the notion that Batman and Joker just might know too much about each other. And, that... not death, was the deciding end to their game with each other.

So much potential for something new in their dynamic, instead of the typical ringer they put each other through, which ultimately would have been more tragic than the typical tragedies we get in "epic Batman/Joker showdown", IE; death or loss (Jason, Essen, Babs). More mind games than anything.

 

[RustyCage]

The best thing to come out of DOTF was the notion...

Spoiler

that Bruce knew or didn't know (but, was messing with it) Joker's identity. I thought that was pretty genius and a great idea for Batman to get the upper hand.

But, if Bruce does know; I wish we would have got him telling Joker the truth in the style of Lost In Translation. Se us readers don't know but they know between each other what name was said.

The other twist on the subject would be if Bruce doesn't know and was merely bluffing, than that was his best move he's laid on the Joker ever, ignoring TDKReturns.

I wish the whole arc would have been more based on that above idea of Snyder's. He would have been able to play with Batman's checkmate on the Joker and then truly given us the epitome battle between the two in current comics.

Just think if the aftermath of DOTF wasn't about if the family knows too much about Bruce's schemes but more along...

the notion that Batman and Joker just might know too much about each other. And, that... not death, was the deciding end to their game with each other.

So much potential for something new in their dynamic, instead of the typical ringer they put each other through, which ultimately would have been more tragic than the typical tragedies we get in "epic Batman/Joker showdown", IE; death or loss (Jason, Essen, Babs). More mind games than anything.

Yeah, I thought that was the most clever bit of the book. I have to say though:

Spoiler

I prefer how it played out. To me, the greatest thing about the Joker is that no one knows where he comes from - not even him.

More importantly, what this book said to me is that he doesn't WANT to know, he doesn't want to be bound by the idea of being some person that changed. He's terrified of that. He is so completely entrenched in his point of view of the world that to know his origin would sabotage everything he now is.

Which, of course, is an agent of chaos. The Joker sees himself as purely elemental, period. Not a man, just a really wacked out idea, a perspective. This is also why he doesn't care who Batman really is, he only cares about what Batman is as a perspective or idea, as an element. A dance partner.

So, with that context, I thought that was very tastefully played. One of my favorite Joker moments, to be excessively praising.

Also loved the way Batman leaned into his ear to bitterly whisper to him, and called him 'Darling.'

Honestly, people will say 'nothing happened' in this, but I feel like that was a huge step forward in the relationship between Batman and Joker, and found it fascinating.

As you said, mind games. I'll be looking forward to the continuation of this take on the chemistry between the two of them.

 

[Snow Queen]

Nice to see someone who enjoyed the issue. Definitely makes me a little more excited for tomorrow. After all, execution is half the battle.

 

[WeeZiTe]

Just popping in to say: 17 was awesome.

Irrational haters gonna hate irrationally.

Mini-review:

Spoiler

I liked it (a lot) for what it was. Making an impact didn't require them to shove a literal death gimmick down my throat -- especially one that everyone was expecting anyway. The consequences of this event are more subtle and fundamental emotionally.

Death is one thing, but limping on after brushing with it and having your heart bruised is quite another. Compared to that, munching popcorn and waiting to see who dies is boring to me. I'd rather be surprised.

This is why I'm glad Jason didn't stay dead after the original murdering of him way back.

Batman #17 took the classy, more interesting route. It left us with a haunting cliffhanger on at least 3 different notes, so the Joker got his laugh one way or another. And it also delivered a warm, charming moment with Alfred which I found to be a refreshing tie-off to all the tension before.

Now we're left to see how everyone copes... The foundations of the family are shaken. I find the title of the arc to be appropriate.

And of course, this is some of the most iconic Batman art around right now. Several of these panels/pages are gonna stick with me.

Snyder gets the tone and psychology that I find is lacking in most of the other books - same for Capullo.

Totally agreed.

Spoiler

Love what you said limping on after getting getting a punch to the gut. Great way to put it.

Anyway, I saw a lot of people saying that since no one died in this story that nothing happened. I don't agree with that at all. Yeah, there was no game changing major event or death in this story, but I don't think that makes the story inconsequential. I feel like this story was more of an exploration of the relationship between Batman and the Joker and Bruce and the Bat family rather than a blockbuster type story that Snyder has come to be known for. Because this story is more intimate, we didn't get that huge death or major moment. That being said, I still feel like there were moments in the story that will have pretty big implications going forward. There were many revelations about Bats/Joker and Bruce and the family throughout the story that's going to change the dynamic of both of their relationships going forward. I don't feel like its necessary to have a defining character death to make a story worthwhile or memorable. When keeping in mind that this story is mostly a study about the complex relationship of two of the most iconic characters in comic book history, I feel like it totally delivered and adds to the mythology.

I feel like this was a really good ending to a truly great arc. This issue dealt with a lot of things that people have previously wondered/complained about. Absolutely loved it. I'm definitely excited to see what Snyder has next as well. Also, Capullo is just an absolute art god. This issue was absolutely insane because of him.

 

[antsman41]

Totally agreed.

Spoiler

Love what you said limping on after getting getting a punch to the gut. Great way to put it.

Anyway, I saw a lot of people saying that since no one died in this story that nothing happened. I don't agree with that at all. Yeah, there was no game changing major event or death in this story, but I don't think that makes the story inconsequential. I feel like this story was more of an exploration of the relationship between Batman and the Joker and Bruce and the Bat family rather than a blockbuster type story that Snyder has come to be known for. Because this story is more intimate, we didn't get that huge death or major moment. That being said, I still feel like there were moments in the story that will have pretty big implications going forward. There were many revelations about Bats/Joker and Bruce and the family throughout the story that's going to change the dynamic of both of their relationships going forward. I don't feel like its necessary to have a defining character death to make a story worthwhile or memorable. When keeping in mind that this story is mostly a study about the complex relationship of two of the most iconic characters in comic book history, I feel like it totally delivered and adds to the mythology.

I feel like this was a really good ending to a truly great arc. This issue dealt with a lot of things that people have previously wondered/complained about. Absolutely loved it. I'm definitely excited to see what Snyder has next as well. Also, Capullo is just an absolute art god. This issue was absolutely insane because of him.

But, barely any of that happens in Batman. It's all in the crossovers...

All Joker does in Batman is state things, but never proves/shows the why.

 

[RoughNTumble]

we are also glad that

Spoiler

no one died just for the hell of it. shock storytelling sucks and that was the most worrying part of this story, that it seemed like snyder was trying to one-up joker's most heinous deeds. we're starting to look at his arcs more like long episodes of the animated series.

 

[WeeZiTe]

But, barely any of that happens in Batman. It's all in the crossovers...

All Joker does in Batman is state things, but never proves/shows the why.

I don't really think so. I think the previous Batman issues set up a bunch of things that were settled in 17. The tie ins kind of furthered those ideas but for most part, I felt they kind of dragged. I agree with some others in saying that it would've been nice to have seen the Death of the Family main title arc be a couple of issues longer and show Joker taking down the Family there instead of having the crossover.

 

[Snow Queen]

The tie ins were pretty good, in my opinion. Batman and Robin's first was great and the second was good. Batgirl was alright. Nightwing was great. Red Hood and Teen Titans...moving on. Detective Comics' second was easily the best tie in, the first wasn't really a tie in so I don't really count it.

 

[antsman41]

I don't really think so. I think the previous Batman issues set up a bunch of things that were settled in 17. The tie ins kind of furthered those ideas but for most part, I felt they kind of dragged. I agree with some others in saying that it would've been nice to have seen the Death of the Family main title arc be a couple of issues longer and show Joker taking down the Family there instead of having the crossover.

Well that... yes. But,

Joker kept saying how the family weakened him. And, never showed or told us how. It was just set up and never followed through.

In a way you can say Batman/The Family proved him wrong... but, he almost felt like he was lying about that whole thought. Which, he never does to Batman. Especially about his thoughts/feelings. Yes, he lies about motives and plans. But, he'd never lie about his intentions towards Batman.

If anything, he could say the family weakened their relationship. Taking it off the mano-e-mano point of view. But, trying to say they weakened bats and hurt him as a hero (the great detective/caped crusader/dark knight) wasn't tested. I don't know... just how I feel.

Joker just didn't feel right to me. He's been written by a million different writers with their own takes, but deep down they all have the same Joker skeleton, that skeleton was missing in this Joker. He has done this whole "Us/Me & You" thing before but something about glamorizing his past and shoving the jester/king stuff in Batman's face was weird and off-putting for "The Joker".

 

[WeeZiTe]

I can see what you're saying, but I don't think the entirety of this story is over yet. I think repercussions will be felt throughout in which both Batman and the family ask themselves the questions that Joker was posing and even start to doubt themselves.

 

[RustyCage]

we are also glad that

Spoiler

no one died just for the hell of it. shock storytelling sucks and that was the most worrying part of this story, that it seemed like snyder was trying to one-up joker's most heinous deeds. we're starting to look at his arcs more like long episodes of the animated series.

Exactly, exactly.

I find Snyder's take generally to be kind of like a darker extension of BTAS. The spirit is there in a lot of ways.

 

[RustyCage]

I can see what you're saying, but I don't think the entirety of this story is over yet. I think repercussions will be felt throughout in which both Batman and the family ask themselves the questions that Joker was posing and even start to doubt themselves.

Yeah. It's the slow knife that cuts deepest, etc.

Someone had this idea that I enjoy:

Spoiler

I still like how things wound up, but, maybe next time?

 

[Snow Queen]

^^The idea that you enjoy is 4Chan.org?

 

[RustyCage]

^^The idea that you enjoy is 4Chan.org?

Rats, I guess it's been removed already. I saved the image, so I'll try to upload it when I get on a proper computer.

 

[CConn]

I just read it. It was pretty terrible. That is all.

 

[Naked Shia]

I just read it. It was pretty terrible. That is all.

you're being an irrational hater. that is all.

 

[kguillou]

I just finished it not too long ago and i thought...it was simulateanously excellent and a letdown. The dialogue, the atmosphere, the tension, the buildup...all incredibly executed....but then the actual climax really let me down. For the past four issues Synder has been building this up to be the "ultmate" joker story, a story that really encapsulates the relationship and history between Batman and the Joker and he has been doing a fantastic job with it, but when it came down to the final moments....it ended pretty much the same way every other Joker story ends. I was really really hoping that this time would be...different. All this build up i was actually hoping Snyder would have the balls to have Batman "cross the line", and not necessarily by

Spoiler

killing him but, I dunno I was just hoping for more of a "OH S***" resolution. Instead we get the typical "oh, he couldn't have survived that fall...but really we all know he survived" kind of ending

All in all, it was a fantastic, well crafted, well written story, but it would have been flawless i think if the ending were more ballsy and really knocked our socks off.

 

[RustyCage]

There was more to the ending than that. I dunno why the physical happenings seem to dictate the worth of the event to most people. Death/not death, etc.

I haven't seen the ads or any interviews, has it really been advertised as the "ultimate" Joker story? If so, where?

I consider it a step forward in their chemistry, makes me excited to see where it goes next. I don't go into any Batman story expecting it to revolutionize everything. Sometimes I just like a good read that makes me think.

 

[RustyCage]

^^The idea that you enjoy is 4Chan.org?

Here it is:

Spoiler

 

[kguillou]

There was more to the ending than that. I dunno why the physical happenings seem to dictate the worth of the event to most people. Death/not death, etc.

I haven't seen the ads or any interviews, has it really been advertised as the "ultimate" Joker story? If so, where?

I consider it a step forward in their chemistry, makes me excited to see where it goes next. I don't go into any Batman story expecting it to revolutionize everything. Sometimes I just like a good read that makes me think.

Oh, no I completely know what you're saying and i dont want to sound like I didnt enjoy because, again, I thought on a whole it was a fantastic read. It's just that ending...i wanted a little bit more.

 

[antsman41]

The Alfred/Bruce relationship progression stuff was sort of lacking at the end, too. This sort of thing was handled better in B&R Annual...

But, I will say. Joker leaving a little bit of himself, per-say (Ha) in all of the Bat Family members is pretty smooth and awesome. Even though he failed to taint their minds or their souls, he did taint their DNA.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

That was actually pretty cool. This arc had so much further potential, perhaps it should have been extended to each member of the Bat-family being taken from right under Bruce's nose in issues of Batman showing how each relation makes him weak.

 

[CConn]

I think I honestly would've preferred it to be an Elseworlds where Joker forces Batman to eat everyone's faces.

At least then I could put it on my bookshelf next to All-Star Batman and The Flamingo.