Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 10

[johnrain]

It is a cop out in the end of the movie for the Eagles to save their bacon. Just like it was a cop out when the Army of the Dead saved Minas Tirath.

 

[redhawk23]

I must say in retrospect this film just didn't do much for me. It simply wasn't that engaging or memorable for me. While of course it wasn't going to tell a complete story it just didn't hit the right emotional beats for me and seriously when the eagles show up its like the air being let out of a balloon. At least with Return of the King they basically only pick up Frodo once the task is done. In the book or not, their inclusion really ended the film on a bad note for me.

Another part of that is while I knew none of the characters would die, certain action scenes, the giant falls and such kind of got out of hand with with the characters surviving completely unscathed.

I loved the vast majority of the scenes in the goblin city but a certain point it just seemed like the dwarves were being pass through some improbable rube golberg machine of survival.

The Hobbit story of course has pretty low stakes for the most part anyways, which is absolutely fine but it personally even within the smaller story that this film focuses on there's just no narrative tension at all for the above stated reasons.

I certainly didn't walk out of the film anticipating another 6 hours of The Hobbit and a month on, it is just not sticking with me.

 

[Airwings]

Extremely well-done film. A top notch fantasy adventure. Really good actors.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I love the film, but I agree that the beginning and ending both felt weak... the real strength of the film is in the middle. If you let the ending bother you too much the movie will certainly leave a bad taste in your mouth.

 

[Marvolo]

I must say in retrospect this film just didn't do much for me. It simply wasn't that engaging or memorable for me. While of course it wasn't going to tell a complete story it just didn't hit the right emotional beats for me and seriously when the eagles show up its like the air being let out of a balloon. At least with Return of the King they basically only pick up Frodo once the task is done. In the book or not, their inclusion really ended the film on a bad note for me.

Another part of that is while I knew none of the characters would die, certain action scenes, the giant falls and such kind of got out of hand with with the characters could survive completley unscathed.

I loved the vast majority of the scenes in the goblin city but a certain point it just seemed like the dwarves were being pass through some improbable rube golberg machine of survival.

The Hobbit story of course has pretty low stakes for the most part anyways, which is absolutely fine but it personally even within the smaller story that this film focuses on there's just no narrative tension at all for the above stated reasons.

I certainly didn't walk out of the film anticipating another 6 hours of The Hobbit and a month on, it is just not sticking with me.

You put my feelings into words.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The Hobbit HISHE

[YT]JrKXH1CeXck[/YT]

 

[The Navigator]

^That end song was awesome.

 

[Marvolo]

The Hobbit HISHE

[YT]JrKXH1CeXck[/YT]

"SCROTUM BEARDS!"

 

[LostSon88]

It is a cop out in the end of the movie for the Eagles to save their bacon. Just like it was a cop out when the Army of the Dead saved Minas Tirath.

But those are in the book…what else can you do?

 

[ThePhantasm]

But those are in the book…what else can you do?

The Army of the Dead doesn't save Minas Tirith in the book. Not directly anyways... they never show up at the Battle of Pelenor Fields.

In the book it is explained that the Eagles regularly attack the Goblins, and an explanation is also given for why they don't carry them to the Lonely Mountain. Because the Eagles can't talk in the film, no explanation is given there.

 

[LostSon88]

Apologies then. I thought that's how it went down.

So, how did they win the Battle of Pelennor Fields in the book?

 

[ThePhantasm]

In the book Aragorn rallies the Dunedain Rangers and some Gondorians to his cause, building up a fighting force. The Dead help Aragorn capture some ships at Pelargir, then Aragorn releases them from their curse. It is Aragorn's human ranger / Gondorian army that arrives at Pelennor, not the Dead.

 

[LostSon88]

That would've been cool to see but given the context of the film, I can see why they went the route they did. Introducing another fighting force and having Aragorn take TWO trips, one to rally the Dead army, the other to gather the Rangers and Gondorians, would've padded another 30-45 minutes to ROTK and even moreso take more time away from the main narrative of Frodo, etc.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, its understandable why they condensed it down.

Another small difference: in the films Gandalf is portrayed as being able to seemingly contact the Eagles at will via moth. In the books this is not the case, and the Eagles actually seem to be difficult to contact and keep their own private company. In the Hobbit, the Eagles come across them by chance because they hate goblins and enjoy killing them. In LOTR, Gwahir saves Gandalf from Orthanc because he was contacted by Radagast, not by Gandalf.

The Eagles are commonly percieved as deus ex machina or as a plot hole creating contrivance, but the problem is somewhat exacerbated by their portrayal in the films. For a good read on why it might not be a good idea, for example, for the Eagles to carry the ring to Mordor, check this article out.

 

[Marvolo]

That would've been cool to see but given the context of the film, I can see why they went the route they did. Introducing another fighting force and having Aragorn take TWO trips, one to rally the Dead army, the other to gather the Rangers and Gondorians, would've padded another 30-45 minutes to ROTK and even moreso take more time away from the main narrative of Frodo, etc.

Take out the trip to Osgiliath in TTT put everything of Frodo and Sam's journey up until Cirith Ungol back into TTT like the book and it would free up 40 minutes for Aragorn in ROTK.

Really I would rather they just cut the dead army and had him go foe the Rangers to begin within. The rangers story could have been dealt with much more than it was.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Take out the trip to Osgiliath in TTT put everything of Frodo and Sam's journey up until Cirith Ungol back into TTT like the book and it would free up 40 minutes for Aragorn in ROTK.

Really I would rather they just cut the dead army and had him go foe the Rangers to begin within. The rangers story could have been dealt with much more than it was.

That's a good point.

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah, its understandable why they condensed it down.

Another small difference: in the films Gandalf is portrayed as being able to seemingly contact the Eagles at will via moth. In the books this is not the case, and the Eagles actually seem to be difficult to contact and keep their own private company. In the Hobbit, the Eagles come across them by chance because they hate goblins and enjoy killing them. In LOTR, Gwahir saves Gandalf from Orthanc because he was contacted by Radagast, not by Gandalf.

The Eagles are commonly percieved as deus ex machina or as a plot hole creating contrivance, but the problem is somewhat exacerbated by their portrayal in the films. For a good read on why it might not be a good idea, for example, for the Eagles to carry the ring to Mordor, check this article out.

I don't know if you have heard this spoiler, but in the Hobbit: Part 2

Spoiler

Radagast is turned into a moth by the necromancer, and its believed by the fans that the moth at Orthanc in FOTR is Radagast. If it is true then in FOTR it would still be Radagast who contacts the eagles, and it would be him at the Battle of the Black Gate.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I don't know if you have heard this spoiler, but in the Hobbit: Part 2

Spoiler

Radagast is turned into a moth by the necromancer, and its believed by the fans that the moth at Orthanc in FOTR is Radagast. If it is true then in FOTR it would still be Radagast who contacts the eagles, and it would be him at the Battle of the Black Gate.

Are you serious, or pulling my leg? Because if you are serious... well...

I'm not sure I understand that...

Spoiler

Doesn't Gandalf contact the Eagles by moth in The Hobbit Part I? And why would the Necromancer turn him into a moth anyways?

 

[Marvolo]

Are you serious, or pulling my leg? Because if you are serious... well...

I'm not sure I understand that...

Spoiler

Doesn't Gandalf contact the Eagles by moth in The Hobbit Part I? And why would the Necromancer turn him into a moth anyways?

Nope. Not pulling your leg. It was a rumor last year.

Spoiler

It isn't entirely clear, but some think Radagast already has the ability to turn into a moth which I don't doubt. He is a wizard of nature. Or that the Necro turns him into one or that Radagast turns into one while figting the Necro and the Necro makes it so he can't change back. Rumor was at some point Radagast will turn into a moth.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Nope. Not pulling your leg. It was a rumor last year.

Spoiler

It isn't entirely clear, but some think Radagast already has the ability to turn into a moth which I don't doubt. He is a wizard of nature. Or that the Necro turns him into one or that Radagast turns into one while figting the Necro and the Necro makes it so he can't change back. Rumor was at some point Radagast will turn into a moth.

Spoiler

Gandalf does say in the FOTR book that Radagast is a master of "shapes and changes of hue." Whether that means he is a shapeshifter is not obvious.

Still, I don't like the rumor much. For one thing I'm almost certain Gandalf contacted the Eagles by moth in Part I. Was Radagast just hanging out with the company in moth form the whole time? Why? And the Necromancer having the power to make that form permanent seems over-the-top to me... Sauron is powerful, but in the end just a Maiar like Gandalf and Radagast. Such an irreversible act seems a bit much.

Guess we'll have to see how it pans out, if true...

 

[Victarion]

Perhaps

Spoiler

the Necromancer drains Radaghast's magic so that he can't transform back into a human. That would make more sense if Sauron is seeking to manifest in physical form once again. Simply turning Radaghast into a butterfly seems out of the left field.

I read a theory over on The One Ring that the Necromancer would either ally with, or resurrect, Smaug for the Battle of Five Armies. I guess that would be a good way of explaining why Sauron was left so weak in Rings.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yikes, I hate that rumor / theory even more!

 

[Marvolo]

Spoiler

Gandalf does say in the FOTR book that Radagast is a master of "shapes and changes of hue." Whether that means he is a shapeshifter is not obvious.

Still, I don't like the rumor much. For one thing I'm almost certain Gandalf contacted the Eagles by moth in Part I. Was Radagast just hanging out with the company in moth form the whole time? Why? And the Necromancer having the power to make that form permanent seems over-the-top to me... Sauron is powerful, but in the end just a Maiar like Gandalf and Radagast. Such an irreversible act seems a bit much.

Guess we'll have to see how it pans out, if true...

Spoiler

Gandalf does contact them by way of moth in Part 1, but that doesn't mean that moth was Radagast. It was just a moth. Any creature of the air can communicate with Manwe who is the god that commands the eagles. The rumor is saying that at some point Radagast will turn into a moth, but that doesn't mean every single moth is radagast and that only radagast moths can contact the eagles.

You're reading into this the wrong way.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Spoiler

Gandalf does contact them by way of moth in Part 1, but that doesn't mean that moth was Radagast. It was just a moth. Any creature of the air can communicate with Manwe who is the god that commands the eagles. The rumor is saying that at some point Radagast will turn into a moth, but that doesn't mean every single moth is radagast and that only radagast moths can contact the eagles.

You're reading into this the wrong way.

I'll grant that's a possibility. In fact, that's actually how I've always interpreted Gandalf's contacting the Eagles on film prior to this rumor. BUT...

Spoiler

It will be extremely confusing for the audience if sometimes the moth is Radagast and sometimes it isn't. That's creating too complex a problem in the film. Simplicity is beautiful. Having to parse out when the moth is and isn't Radagast isn't worth making Radagast the moth in the first place, IMHO. Nothing is gained really but confusion.

 

[superkong 500]

I wonder if Azog will fight Thorin in the desolation of smaug or in part 3. I hope he does, I know its supposed to be dain the one that kills azog but there's still bolg, plus it makes more sense to have Thorin kill his greatest nemesis specially after all the build-up to it and what Azog did to thorin in the end of this one.