Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by SentinelMind, Jun 15, 2013.
Henry really was great and I agree. He's Superman now. The torch has successfully been passed.
So, more lines makes a character better. Didn't know that one, the more you talk the more you are worth.
Still, it was Superman what was central top SR. During the first third or so of MoS Clark was central, but he became Superman he was just a part of this alien invasion plot.
Superman in SR was not a deux ex machina when he talked to Lois, or when he was defeated at Luthor island. But if you call Superman rescuing people a deux ex machina, then you have to be aware that that's what Superman is.
No more than MoS was a story about General Zod and what he had to do to make sure his planet and race could keep living on. We start seeing what he did in Krypton, how he was trialed and condemned and how he returned and started an invasion to earth to achieve his purposes.
Well, MoS is a retread of STM and SII. Only they forgot the impact Superman should have done over the earth population before having more Kryptonians into the mix. You know, like in a Superman movie.
ElDuderino = someone without an argument.
Lol. Ah yes, the five year mission to nowhere....or maybe for Kryptonians, its more like a Lost Weekend. Anyways, epic fail. But the absurdity of this line is what makes it the only memorable thing Supes said in that movie.
when i hear the word reboot, it's not that i think of them as "reboot movies" (since SR wasn't one), however WB did hope these movies would "reboot", or "relaunch" the franchise into what they wanted it to be...
so on that note, Man of Steel is by far the better film in every way, because it did exactly what Superman Returns failed utterly to do: it made Superman relevant again to the general audience. Superman Returns tried to piggyback itself off of the Donner movies, thinking that nostalgia alone would make it be a great movie; well, in the words of Lex Luthor, "WROOONG!". the general audience is either too young to remember the Donner films, tired with the Donner films, or just simply dont like the Donner films. the campiness is outdated, and they cant relate to the characters Donner created. it was a different vision for a different group of people at a different time. Bryan Singer didnt realize that, and sealed his own coffin
Man of Steel is a brand new idea and a fresh take on Superman, something the general audience has been clamoring for: more action, more intensity, and thats exactly what this film is. Warner Bros learned their lesson with the failure of Superman Returns, and now we have Man of Steel. a modern take, fresh new ideas, more intensity, everything they want to see.. and they did an amazing job at pulling it off
like i said earlier, Man of Steel is doing what Superman Returns couldn't do:
make Superman popular.
Man of Steel is, by far, the winner.
I think Superman Returns may have had some more memorable and better done moments, like the flight with Lois and the talk about what its like to be Superman, and the return of Superman to the public eye when he saved the plane, and how that changed everything in that world. But I think that as a movie overall, it wasn't great, mostly because it tried to draw on too many homages, not only to the Donner films, but to the Superman lore in general.
Part of the reason why I enjoyed Man of Steel more is because it does try to be different, it does try to adapt to the new age of comic book movies that we've seen in the past 5 years. They make some changes that are new and fresh, as far as live action movies are concerned. Because of that, I didn't mind some of the short-changing that we saw like supporting characters not getting the same kind of development, or the Lois/Clark relationship not being entirely fleshed out. But I think this was a good movie that leaves a lot of great places that they can go with a sequel, whereas SR ended on a note that didn't exactly leave me wanting a sequel.
It wasn't just about more lines. It was about actually following Superman's/Clark's journey. And I wholeheartedly disagree that Superman wasn't central once the Zod invasion stuff begins. He was at the center of all of it. Sure, other characters factored into it, but he was still the central focus. Superman in SR didn't have anything to say because he also didn't have anything to do for most of the film. Lois and Lex were the central characters.
And MOS was not a story about Zod. After the Krypton scene, he doesn't appear again until the second half of the movie. And as for Superman having an impact before the Kryptonians showed up? I suppose that's a fair argument, but was it really needed? Did we need to see yet another montage of the central going around solving smaller problems? That's an area that can stall a superhero film; Captain America is a good example. I'm not saying that it always does, but sometimes it's good to just keep the movie going forward.
I never thought about it this way, but it makes a lot of sense.
Also, I didn't hate Brandon Routh, but I still think that the he got the role in that movie in particular because he was doing a Chris Reeve impression and he kind of looked/acted like him.
In fact Superman in SR was not only the "friend" Reeve made him. In SR he was the hero, but also he felt alone and troubled by so many people asking for help like he was some kind of God.
I remember, "I hear everything. You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior, but every day I hear people crying for one" very well as it was the first time in a movie that I get Superman's side of the story. But mostly I remember the speech he got from Jor-el (that he couldn't have consciously remember but somehow he did), now being given to Jason.
Superman in MoS has great lines and great acting. i am not the one denying that. But IN Returns he was an accessible character as you can see he's not only an icon. there's something more going on inside him.
Again, he did have a personality. You yourself call him "introspective." And well, he's coming back from a long lonely trip that has made him aware that he is alone. And then he can smile, be nice to people he rescues, then angry when there's this last chance of saving earth from Luthor island, etc. Far from not having a personality.
And this isn't saying MoS's Superman was bad or anything of the like.
But not the only.
Well, I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree then.I forgot SR was a Superman movie when I didn't see an actual Superman due to the actor (and his costume) and when the writing turned him into a stalking deadbeat dad and someone who leaves earth without a word for a few years to go on a ghost hunt (and tries to get it on with a woman who is already taken). The ´´I'm still Superman`` scene is worse than ANYTHING in MOS and also a disgrace to Superman. Didn't feel like Superman at no point to me, unlike MOS.
Well, you mention the lines and number of things he said as an issue so I thought that was what you meant.
He was there, no problem, but the invasion and the reasons behind it was far a more important. In fact THAT was what brought Superman into the game. Because invaders were looking for him.
And yet he said and did things.
I said that SR was not more about Luthor and Lois that MOS was about Zod.
I know it wasn't about Zod, although it could be seen as so.
Did we need the fun and the excitement? I'd say this is not a matter of necessity as much as simply rescuing the best elements of the character.
If the story gets stalled, then that's bad writing. Showing Superman amazing the world shouldn't have to stall anything.
MOS is definetely better, but the SR scene "I hear everything" was incredibly well done. The music in SR was better. Him saying bye to Lois on the plane after he saved them was well done as well. Not gonna lie, was very emotional was Supes was getting his ass kicked as well.
MOS is just a superior film. I was breathtaken by certain scences with the film. You now whats sad is ive never properly even got through SR. It was just to dank and desolate with no emotional impact. I thought MOS was the most human Sups we've seen realized on the big screen which is an accomplishment on and of itself.
Yeah, Just because we have got a shiny new toy, let's throw away the old one.
Jumping onto bandwagon mentality, whatever is new is good, whatever is old must be bad.
Most of those who fail to see any merits in SR, are basically fans of movies with CGI effects and action.
Or they maybe just really don't like Superman Returns.
Also as the great Barney Stinson once. Said "new is always better"
Even better, most of them used to hate nodding Donner and having Jesus references, and MOS did both.
In MOS, Superman is never introduced properly to citizens of metropolis, i saw that burger commercial that showed Superman interacting with ordinary citizens, but in the movie itself no such thing.
hell, people of Gotham got to talk with Batman !
no one is saying that there arent good things in Superman Returns, since there is some, but they are extremely few and far in between, and the negative heavily outweighs the good in that film...
the general audience agreed,and obviously Warner Bros agreed- otherwise we would have a franchise with Routh and Singer at the helm... but that's not what happened.
you can call Superman Returns a good film all you want and love it as much as you want-and there's nothing wrong with that in the least- but the plain and simple truth is that it didn't work. I love Superman The Movie with all my heart, but that doesnt change the fact that even though it's timeless, a classic, and is close to my heart, in the eyes of the GA, it's outdated, and it's time to move on.
Singer failed to realize that, rehashed STM, and failed
Snyder saw the opportunity, made it, and we are seeing its results
the general audience is who they make these movies for, not us. they go with what makes money, because that's what they plan to do all along: make money.
Not nearly as overt though. SR just kept pounding the masiah/Jesus/Donner nods/ to a point it stopped being fun and became more redundant borderlining on a parody.
Trust me, once the hype and novelty wear off, people will turn on MoS in spades. It's just a matter of time.
Crap happens, man. So far MOS is a rotten tomato and SR is not.
But MOS still payed lots of homages to STM.
And Snyder rehashed STM and SII too.
Isn't it too early to tell what GA are going to do?
Just as much. Jor-el saying that Kal-el will never be alone, Lara saying he'll be different, Pa Kent saying he's here for a reason. Superman holds Zod just like Reeve held Stamp. Crucifixion pose right there, Superman is 33 years old...
Man of Steel by a mile.
Man of Steel, by a MILE
and I still like Superman Returns.
and even the representatives of RT say that they're shocked at the score, which shows that even they think it was a great movie, but all that aside the score of a movie on RT does not make or break a movie.
homaghes are fine... a complete rehash is what Superman Returns is
really, because last time i checked, there's a heck of a lot more going on in this film than there ever was in Superman The Movie and Superman II... tons more action, no amnesia kiss, none of the corniness... and if what you say is true, then the GA would of said so as well, yet so far, no one has made that claim... on the other hand, the GA is ENJOYING the film, much more than they enjoyed SR
lets see... SR had a $270 million dollar budget and only broke $200 million
MOS has a $175 million dollar budget, and companies OTHER than the GA has already made up for the budget, something SR never got.
but this is an argument based on personal references and opinions, which will become an endless debate... you wanna like the travesty called Superman Returns, fine, go ahead. but dont expect people to always agree with you.
So do I it's just my big problems with Superman Returns are the fact that its a few good sequences spread out with either boring or pointless stuff in between. However, I didn't think the plane sequence from Superman Returns couldn't be topped but that was before I watched the final hour of Man of Steel.
As someone who was introduced to Superman through Superman 1 and 2., I can can say in imo, that MOS is the best Superman film since 1980. To me it called back to such diverse representations as the 40's cartoons, The Donner films, Smallville, and the post crisis comics. At the same time, it blended the Nolan realism with a 50's sci fi feel during the George Reeves era.
In alot of ways , it took alot of the strengths of SR and eliminated alot of the weaknesses imo. For me personally it hit all the write notes. I retold the myth without giving us a point by point rehash of the Donner film, it brought new aspects to the myth without being so radical it was unrecognizable, the handled old themes in a practical and realistic way, It balanced emotional and touching moments with the non stop action people have been longing for in a Superman film, and it set a foundation that a series of MOS sequels and JLA can build from.