Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[BobJM]

Again, they weren't origin stories in the literal sense of the word, but they were still becoming stories.

Spider-Man starts his film from an unfulfilled place. He hasn't met his first villain yet, hasn't had his first relationship yet, he hasn't even learned the true meaning of responsibility yet. But he does, over the film, acquire all those things, and learn what being a hero truly means, and what his purpose in the MCU, is.

Black Panther tells the history of Wakanda through exposition because it's necessary for us as the audience, to know this history, to understand the events that are about to play out in live narrative. T'Challa's arc of coming of age into a king, Wakanda's arc of change, Okoye's arc of foregoing tradition, Killmonger's rise & fall that challenges the status quo and T'Challa's beliefs-- are not relegated to exposition.

This is all formative stuff in the context of the Black Panther franchise.

That’s all well & fine. It could be the same for the Fantastic Four, that’s all I’m saying. It’s not about the minutia of the origin, just compelling character arcs to thread the film together. Whoever the main villain is can be the first superhero villain that the team encounters if you think that’s necessary; they’ve been otherwise exploring the cosmos & gaining celebrity status.

Well, that's because the film isn't specifically about Mr. Incredible and Elastigirl as a romance. If it was, we would have absolutely seen those moments. No, it's about them as parents and about the family. And the film does not begin with this family already formed as a superhero team. The formation and development of the family ("Incredibles") into a superhero team, is the live narrative of the film. So narratively, the Fantastic Four equivalent of this, would be the same.

The family dynamics are already there though when we meet Violet & Dash (sans the prologue sequence). They’re all familiar with their powers, with the exception of Violet who is hesitant to push her limits. That’s what I mean—I don’t need them the Fantastic Four to grow into their family dynamics or superpowers.

Then what is Grimm's arc? If not him overcoming his insecurities, and accepting himself, ane his body, what would be the internal flaw that he must overcome? What would he learn in this film?
Even the Incredible Hulk which takes place 4 years after the accident, still bolsters a Banner who has yet to come to terms with his condition. Because that absolutely is Banner's formative arc: acceptance

I don’t know; I’m sure the writers can craft something original or mine from any other the many years of FF comics. And those feelings of his needn’t be erased completely, just not at the forefront entirely. We can still see shades of it, and feel resentment. But Alicia can help him through those moments, or his faith can.

 

[Dark Raven]

Oh and I'm 90% sure Peters gonna be in this. So maybe we can have a moment where his intelligence impresses Reed.

Maybe he'll say "Mr Richards, Mr Richards, what shall I do?"

 

[DyeLorean]

I just want a buddy action scene or movie or series with The Hulk and The Thing because I always had those two together when I was playing with my action figures when I was a kid. Make my silly dreams come true, Marvel, come on! You never disappoint!

 

[Marvel united]

That’s all well & fine. It could be the same for the Fantastic Four, that’s all I’m saying. It’s not about the minutia of the origin, just compelling character arcs to thread the film together. Whoever the main villain is can be the first superhero villain that the team encounters if you think that’s necessary; they’ve been otherwise exploring the cosmos & gaining celebrity status.



The family dynamics are already there though when we meet Violet & Dash (sans the prologue sequence). They’re all familiar with their powers, with the exception of Violet who is hesitant to push her limits. That’s what I mean—I don’t need them the Fantastic Four to grow into their family dynamics or superpowers.



I don’t know; I’m sure the writers can craft something original or mine from any other the many years of FF comics. And those feelings of his needn’t be erased completely, just not at the forefront entirely. We can still see shades of it, and feel resentment. But Alicia can help him through those moments, or his faith can.

I completely get it, and I know fans generally don't care for origin stories or characters figuring things out stories. But it's important to remember that these stories are sometimes neccessary.

Esp when you're dealing with a franchise like the MCU that has so many bits & bobs, and moving pieces. The Fantastic Four as a cog in a larger system, are gonna need to have their own distinct identity and place. The first film will have to define and explore what that place is, what that place means, what it means to the characters.

And the thing about comics is that nobody ever truly grows. Characters are always reset back to their established status quo after every arc or era. Ben Grimm may find peace in his rocky form in one story, and this may even stick for awhile.... But if another writer comes onto the book and wants to explore those issues, suddenly, Grimm's insecurities rear their head once again

Change is never constant in comics.

 

[BobJM]

@Marvel united we’ll have to see how this movie turns out

Do you have a pick for the first movie’s villain? Is it Mole Man?

about the larger MCU, you think we’ll see any guest appearances? I could see maybe Hulk as a talking head on a screen in the lab somewhere, but I’d keep these guys separate for the first outing off. Or maybe Johnny getting miffed that another superhero bumped him off the Top trending list—just to play off the larger MCU while not being fully beholden to it.

 

[Boom]

Rahul Kohli as Reed Richards
Tom Pelphrey as Victor von Doom

 

[Marvel united]

@Marvel united we’ll have to see how this movie turns out

Do you have a pick for the first movie’s villain? Is it Mole Man?

about the larger MCU, you think we’ll see any guest appearances? I could see maybe Hulk as a talking head on a screen in the lab somewhere, but I’d keep these guys separate for the first outing off. Or maybe Johnny getting miffed that another superhero bumped him off the Top trending list—just to play off the larger MCU while not being fully beholden to it.

I didn't mind your pick of Mad Thinker but yeah, I'd probably go with Mole Man. I'd love to see MS recreate this iconic image


As for exploration, you could totally have the Four exploring Subterranea in a 'Journey To The Center Of The Earth' type deal


Kro is being introduced in Eternals so he could appear as well

 

[Crimz]

I don't want to see the teams origin again, but they should not be fully formed in their first film. I don't want them used to their powers or celebrities already. They should still be new to everything and we get to watch them grow over the films. Skipping the origin makes sense considering the previous films, but that doesn't mean that they should skip over all that character development.

 

[Iceman]

I didn't mind your pick of Mad Thinker but yeah, I'd probably go with Mole Man. I'd love to see MS recreate this iconic image
View attachment 40494

As for exploration, you could totally have the Four exploring Subterranea in a 'Journey To The Center Of The Earth' type deal
View attachment 40497

Kro is being introduced in Eternals so he could appear as well

Ha, I love that F4 image.

Also exploration/adventure is important to me. I hope we really get that with F4 as it isn’t that common with superhero films we’ve had.

 

[Iceman]

I just want a buddy action scene or movie or series with The Hulk and The Thing because I always had those two together when I was playing with my action figures when I was a kid. Make my silly dreams come true, Marvel, come on! You never disappoint!

Haha. I think many of us had the same silly dreams and different combinations depending which figures we had as a kid or which characters we were first introduced to in comics. Getting these dreams translated well onto the big (or small) screen in live action is a thing of beauty. I would love to see Hulk and Thing get something together.

 

[Zarex]

I would love to see the FF taking on one of Harvey's pets in a before credit scene, with the team scattered throughout Manhattan and assembling to recreate the iconic FF #1 cover art. But I don't see him working as a film's big bad. I've got Annihilus as the villain for the FF reboot

 

[Detective Conan]

I don't want to see the teams origin again, but they should not be fully formed in their first film. I don't want them used to their powers or celebrities already. They should still be new to everything and we get to watch them grow over the films. Skipping the origin makes sense considering the previous films, but that doesn't mean that they should skip over all that character development.

Exactly. I said a few pages back, that the MCU FF should follow the model of what DC is doing with the Batman and what the MCU did with Spider-Man, and simply have the origin happen off-screen but even though we don’t see how the team got their powers, we do see how the team figures out this whole superhero team thing, and the issues that come about being so new to it. Which is why I don’t want them getting stuff like the Baxter Building and the Fantasti-car until near the end. That stuff should only come as a culmination of their growth as a superhero family finally fully formed.

 

[Marvel united]

I would love to see the FF taking on one of Harvey's pets in a before credit scene, with the team scattered throughout Manhattan and assembling to recreate the iconic FF #1 cover art. But I don't see him working as a film's big bad. I've got Annihilus as the villain for the FF reboot

Hmm, I'm very curious as to why you think Mole Man wouldn't work as a villain. You could do some crazy, fantastical things with him

Exactly. I said a few pages back, that the MCU FF should follow the model of what DC is doing with the Batman and what the MCU did with Spider-Man, and simply have the origin happen off-screen but even though we don’t see how the team got their powers, we do see how the team figures out this whole superhero team thing, and the issues that come about being so new to it. Which is why I don’t want them getting stuff the Baxter Building and the Fantasti-car until near the end. That stuff should only come as a culmination of their growth as a superhero family finally fully formed.

That's.... Exactly what I suggested

The Batman is by no means an origin story but it's still a Year 2 Batman who hasn't figured everything out yet. Heck, he doesn't even have a rogues gallery yet. Reeves wants us to be invested in the journey of Bruce

 

[Zarex]

Hmm, I'm very curious as to why you think Mole Man wouldn't work as a villain. You could do some crazy, fantastical things with him.

Harbey's a B-Lister who works as a troublemaker. But I never bought him as an actual threat to the FF. I'd much prefer a really scary dude like Annihilus than a pathetic sort like Mr. Elder.

 

[Crimz]

Harbey's a B-Lister who works as a troublemaker. But I never bought him as an actual threat to the FF. I'd much prefer a really scary dude like Annihilus than a pathetic sort like Mr. Elder.

Could combine the two by having the monsters Mole Man controls be from the Negative Zone and Annihilus is the real big bad of the film with Mole Man being the "mini boss". Because while Annihilus is a better threat he is also weak when it comes to motivation and complexity. Harvey could handle the complexity while Annihilus poses the big threat to the team. You'd also get to explore two interesting and unique places in the film, Subterranea/Monster Isle and the Negative Zone.

The MCU films mix and match concepts and villains all the time, this can be another instance of that.

 

[Silvermoth]

Imagine if instead of the Kirby Mole Men Mole Man had giant star nosed moles type mole men

 

[WatchProtect]

Nightmare fuel

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

While I know they say they are going slower on "origins" and I get wanting to jump into the action... I think it should be something we see in pretty stark detail.

I wouldn't have a problem with say, a non-linear story telling where at film's start we see them dealing with the aftermath of the "mission" that gave them powers, but ala LOST or a Tarantino film I think if that's so they need to intersplice the events of the test flight or whatever they choose with where they are in the "now" of the film's story.

 

[Crimz]

While I know they say they are going slower on "origins" and I get wanting to jump into the action... I think it should be something we see in pretty stark detail.

I wouldn't have a problem with say, a non-linear story telling where at film's start we see them dealing with the aftermath of the "mission" that gave them powers, but ala LOST or a Tarantino film I think if that's so they need to intersplice the events of the test flight or whatever they choose with where they are in the "now" of the film's story.

The great thing about a shared universe is that you don't even have to show their origin in their film. You can show the accident in another and the actual FF film can take place sometime afterwards. So the accident can be relatively recent for the team without having to waste valuable screen time on it.

The team's origin is the least interesting thing about them imo. It's a means to an end and we've already had several films wasting too much time on it. The movie shouldn't skip the ramifications from it, but it should also not dwell on it.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Of all the announcements across what is set to be released, this one 'excites' me more than anything else, not least, for the fact, at least, we'll FINALLY get a decent version one would have thought, with Feige at the wheel and with it back in the studio's handling.

Off the bat, I think the director choice is wrong, I would have gone for some like Robert Zemekis, safe pair of hands with SFX whilst having budget and scope for the 'family' elements.

In effect, they need to replicate a live action The Incredibles, and the irony of that is not lost on me, believe me. I would personally set it in the original 60's concept and we know time travel is now 'possible' in the MCU so that's for me, the way forward.

Casting wise, I get the calls for Blunt and Krasinski, Reed and Sue HAVE to demonstrate a bond, we haven't had that so far in previous versions.

As a four, they are actually hard characters to cast, they are way more complex than you first give thought to, and it all depends on at what stage you are to 'place them' within the universe at large. Plus no origin either, thanks. We as comic book fans know it and by now, so do the general public.

 

[Zarex]

I would show the origin with a nightmare sequence. We see an abbreviated version of the mission and the aftermath through Ben's POV and he awakes with a start after morphing into the Thing. He then recites a Jewish prayer to calm himself down.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I would show the origin with a nightmare sequence. We see an abbreviated version of the mission and the aftermath through Ben's POV and he awakes with a start after morphing into the Thing. He then recites a Jewish prayer to calm himself down.

I think a lot of long time fans, for obvious reasons, want to see Ben's heritage given some shine.

I do too...


But I remember that in the comics more often than not, Ben is Jewish in a definite cultural sense but I never got that he was, before or after changing, that he was particularly observant, which is the case for many real life people with Jewish roots (People of all kinds of faith, really. I myself did ten years of Catholic school... So of course... Now I'm an atheist.) who are raised with all the signifiers of the American Jewish experience but who aren't regulars at Temple.

I remember the Infinity Crusade crossover and Starlin had Ben being one of the heroes that wasn't taken in by The Goddess who was using a combo of mind influence and people's faith to get them on her side. Ben is asked why he wasn' taken in by her influence or power and he responds with a story about his Aunt... Not that one, one of Petunia's sister. At a young age Ben sees her die from a disease despite all his prayers to God. After, that's when he became a non-believer.

I'm not saying THAT should be what Ben is in the MCU.

In fact, even as an atheist I think a GREAT subplot for Ben in the first film would be him coping with his situation by diving back into his Jewish heritage.

 

[ernesth100]

There was on F4 Comic with Ben where he nearly dies fighting the Hulk. I was thinking the MCU could do that plotline but replace the Hulk with Abomination of Ross/Red-Hulk.

In the story, Ben has a few hours until he can finally turn human for a day and *ahem* be with his girl. Hulk attacks, but he's mind controlled.

Long story short, Ben ends up with like 5 minutes or so until he turns back human and the Hulk is beating the rock off his skin literally. So with one last punch, Ben winds up, knocking the Hulk out cold and himself in the process as well as missing the once a year chance he gets to be human.

It's a small story but I'll always remember. Everyone always like Reed or Johhny. But Ben is where the real character development is at.

Say what you want about F4 2005, but that scene where Ben looks at his wife. And she just drops the ring and leaves. Shatters me everytime. He's not like the Hulk, he can't go normal at first. Even in the God forsaken garbage for that is Fant4stic. The moment where we see Ben literally stuck as a pile of struggling rock.

Moments like these let me know who the film makers have the most bond with. Despite being the least human, Ben is the easiest to relate too.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Harbey's a B-Lister who works as a troublemaker. But I never bought him as an actual threat to the FF. I'd much prefer a really scary dude like Annihilus than a pathetic sort like Mr. Elder.

I mean, Mole Man himself has never been as much a threat to the F4, its his "pets" that are the problem. Having them recapture out-of-control extraterrestial creatures that are threatening the city seems like the perfect debut threat, IMO. I'd hate to see Annihilus so soon, he's a planet-level threat, and I always think its best to stay small in first outings.

 

[Detective Conan]

The team's origin is the least interesting thing about them imo. It's a means to an end and we've already had several films wasting too much time on it. The movie shouldn't skip the ramifications from it, but it should also not dwell on it.

You know who else thought the same?

Stan and Jack. Remember Fantastic Four # 1 already begins with them operating as a superhero team(sans the costumes) and the origin is covered briefly in a mere five pages in a flashback. When you have that in mind, think about how many FF movies waste time taking two hours trying to tell an origin story that was only covered in a short flashback in an already short comic book and hope Marvel avoids the same mistakes the previous movies made.