Comics One More Day Discussion Thread

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Y' know what would help me sleep at night? Retconning the crap that is OMD... Or Joe Q admitting he is wrong about it... without shifting the blame on MJ, JMS or anyone else but himself...
Dealing with the devil is Heroic... Gee! I never thought of it that way... Oh Satan! there's a kitten stuck in a tree, can you come and get it down?

 

[iloveclones]

My favorite part of this whole Mephisto/Venom discussion is that we just got done being lectured about moral relativism. And now, here we are, justifying shooting someone in the leg, rather than the head in order to defend Venom (frankly, one of the most over-rated villains to ever come down the pike.)

 

[Themanofbat]

In case someone misses it...

By the time Peter made that deal Venom had somewhat reformed and was trying to protect innocent people, in his own twisted way, and while it was a bad decision it still doesn't compare to a deal with the devil. Can you explain how it does?

Spidey making a deal with SATAN and a deal with Venom are not comparable.

Now, if Venom were the lord of the underworld and the antithesis to love, everything that was good and decent, and out to enslave all the souls of mankind....then yeah, I could see your point.

But it's the friggin' devil here. He trumps Venom fifty thousand times over in terms of pure evilness.

I'm not suggesting they're comparable.. the devil is obviously more evil than Venom ever was...

BUT... the point I was trying to make is that when everybody was going on about how irresponsible it was for Peter to make such a deal with Satan, we have precedents of Peter making similar irresponsible deals with other bad guys in the past.

Just because Peter has the "with great power comes great responsibility" motto doesn't mean that he has always taken the responsible road... and his deals with Venom are one of many.

 

[Brand]

In case someone misses it...





I'm not suggesting they're comparable.. the devil is obviously more evil than Venom ever was...

BUT... the point I was trying to make is that when everybody was going on about how irresponsible it was for Peter to make such a deal with Satan, we have precedents of Peter making similar irresponsible deals with other bad guys in the past.

Just because Peter has the "with great power comes great responsibility" motto doesn't mean that he has always taken the responsible road... and his deals with Venom are one of many.

I have to give you credit, TMoB. You've been very careful to avoid discussing the particulars of any "deals" made so far, which in my view is the other important thing to consider. Also, as someone who likes the X-Men (though not Wolverine) I can tell you that Logan has probably killed/maimed more innocents than even Venom, but since he is Marvel's other cash cow everyone gives him a pass for it.

I can think of two instances where the two came to a sort of "deal," but feel free to add more if I'm missing any. There was the time Venom agreed to stop trying to kill Spider-Man (I believe it was after they had just worked together to save Brock's ex-wife from a fallen ferris wheel and Venom realized killing Spider-Man would kill all the innocents he would save, too). However, Peter didn't just give Eddie a free pass and tell him he could go kill all the people he wanted for letting him live a Venom-free life.

The second time I can think of off the top of my head was during "Maximum Carnage," and in that situation the immediate threat was posed by Carnage and his roving band of killers. Peter knew he needed help to stop them, and it would have been stupid of him to turn down Venom's help since apparently every other superhero team (except Cap from the Avengers! ) was out of town. Oh, and Firestar was hanging around, too. Anyway, this was a case of Peter choosing the lesser of two evils (though Venom wasn't even really "evil" at the time; he was in his "Lethal Protector" phase). Carnage was slaughtering hundreds, Venom wasn't. That's a rather simple choice. It's not even a choice, really. Either accept help from your former enemy and stop the murderers or fail and watch people die, probably dieing yourself.

Now, look at the choice in OMD. This is a totally different situation. While the earlier "deals" were about protecting others and stopping evil (with Carnage), in this case the deal is about giving the evil guy (the ultimate evil guy) a victory over god. While the other deals were selfless acts, with Peter putting his life on the line, this one was purely selfish. We were shown time and again how Peter moaned about not being able to stand May's death, how he couldn't be responsible for her passing. As has been stated before, May and MJ took on the responsibility when they convinced him to unmask. May unburdened Peter of any decision when she specifically told him that she was ready to move on - she actually WANTED to be let go, to be with her husband. Yes, it would have been painful, but at that point Peter should have lost any last, lingering shreds of responsibility for her situation - it was time for May to pass on.

Instead, Peter basically guilts MJ into making the deal for him before accepting it himself. Remember, she was very much against it in the beginning and even lashed out at him verbally for basically saying he would blame her if they let May die. That's why the deal was accepted. So, we have selfless acts where Peter risks his life to protect others against a deal with ultimate evil where Peter trades off his wife and their happiness so that his aunt can live and he doesn't have to feel guilty, despite her wishes, her commands, to the contrary. I just don't think you can even begin to compare those situations, and if you do it certainly doesn't come out favorably for your arguments.

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm only going to touch on this one briefly, and I'll get back to you on other situations...

"There was the time Venom agreed to stop trying to kill Spider-Man (I believe it was after they had just worked together to save Brock's ex-wife from a fallen ferris wheel and Venom realized killing Spider-Man would kill all the innocents he would save, too). However, Peter didn't just give Eddie a free pass and tell him he could go kill all the people he wanted for letting him live a Venom-free life."

Where is the responsibilty in this one?

I understand the lesser of two evils in Maximum Carnage, but in this one, Peter chooses to let a known killer go free because he doesn't want Venom to try and kill him. And while you say that he doesn't want Venom to go on killing sprees, whose to say that Venom, again, a known killer, doesn't kill again? It doesn't have to be a spree, it just has to be ONCE and Peter would be responsible for that person's death because of his very irresponsible "deal".

And one more time, I'm not saying that deals with Venom and deals with Satan are on par... duh. Obviously, the Devil deal is far worse, but when you look at this particular deal that you have brought up, we clearly see that there is a precedence for Peter making irresponsible decisions.

And that's all I was trying to point out.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Miss Webb]

I was done with the "Power and Responsibility" line a long time ago.

Power is the ability to influence your surroundings. Responsiblity is a choice. The whole concept with Peter was run into the ground. Sure, he felt responsible because of his actions but that has nothing to do with powers. If that were the case there would be no villians in the MU. Writers sometimes put themselves into a box with a character for no real reason.

 

[Brand]

I'm only going to touch on this one briefly, and I'll get back to you on other situations...



Where is the responsibilty in this one?

I understand the lesser of two evils in Maximum Carnage, but in this one, Peter chooses to let a known killer go free because he doesn't want Venom to try and kill him. And while you say that he doesn't want Venom to go on killing sprees, whose to say that Venom, again, a known killer, doesn't kill again? It doesn't have to be a spree, it just has to be ONCE and Peter would be responsible for that person's death because of his very irresponsible "deal".

And one more time, I'm not saying that deals with Venom and deals with Satan are on par... duh. Obviously, the Devil deal is far worse, but when you look at this particular deal that you have brought up, we clearly see that there is a precedence for Peter making irresponsible decisions.

And that's all I was trying to point out.

Thanks for your time.

First, keep in mind this was when Marvel had turned Venom into a "bad good guy" and they wanted to make him more than one of Spidey's recurring villains. This storyline was meant to do that - it was supposed to get Venom out of the Spidey books so he could go on to star in his own series.

You can find a summary of the entire issue here: http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_amazing/375.html

They have Venom kidnap Peter's parents (who as we later find out aren't his parents) to protect them from Peter, of course. And there are a number of scenes where Venom is shown protecting them or his ex-wife. In fact, the only person he continues trying to kill is Peter until the very end. Despite that, the key information is at the end of the issue.

Venom turns to Spidey yet again about to keep fighting him, but Ann yells at him that "They say you're crazy, but you've never been so stupid!" She tells him that Spider-Man saves innocent lives. Venom realizes that if he kills Spidey, then future innocents may die. Venom thanks Ann and tells Spider-Man to make a deal. Venom won't go after him, and he won't go after Venom. Spider-Man reluctantly agrees. Venom hitches a ride on a passing helicopter and starts to leave. Spider-Man wonders how he can let a psycho go free and throws a tracer on Venom. Venom's symbiote destroys the tracer. Spider-Man thinks to himself that all the pain and fear is gone and he should be happy, but he only feels empty.


That night, Peter checked with his Aunt May and made sure his parents were okay. Ann Weying seems to be fine, but the copter that Venom hitched a ride on was found in Pennsylvania, but Venom was nowhere to be found. Peter says that Venom swore not to come after him, but can he really trust the word of a madman?

There are a few important things that need to be pointed out. First, Venom had been kicking Spidey around fairly handily and, if the fight had continued, it most likely would have ended in Peter's defeat. That obviously wouldn't have been any good. After all, Peter's main objective had been to rescue his parents, which he had accomplished. Plus, there were innocent bystanders (Peter's parents, Eddie's ex) who had already been endangered by the fighting and probably could be injured or killed by continuing the battle. Also, despite agreeing to the deal, Peter still tried to attach a tracer to Venom; he didn't just let Eddie go free without at least trying to track his movements. And he kept an eye out for Venom's activities afterwards. I'd call all that taking responsibility.

 

[Themanofbat]

There was one time that comes to mind when Venom escapes the Vault and kills one of the security guards... he feels bad about it, but he killed him nonetheless.

And as if a Spider-Tracer would not be noticed by the symbiote... give me a break... and Spidey cannot keep track of Venom at all times when he's on the loose... so what you call "taking responsibility" seems very irresponsible to me.

Another thing is why did Spider-Man ever let Norman go free... especially after Harry was dead. I could understand letting him free (with his amnesia) while Harry could care for his father, but there was no reason after his death... where's the responsibility in that?

And at the end of Marvel Team-Up #1 (1972), Spidey and the Torch decide to cut the Sandman a break because he wanted to see his Mom for X-Mas, and that action almost got them killed in the next issue, which occured "weeks" apart (as seen in #2) where the Sandman could have been hurting and/or killing people otherwise.

Again, none of them compare to Mephisto, I'm just trying to show a point that Peter can make irresponsible decisions from time to time...

'Nuff said.

 

[Brand]

There was one time that comes to mind when Venom escapes the Vault and kills one of the security guards... he feels bad about it, but he killed him nonetheless.

And as if a Spider-Tracer would not be noticed by the symbiote... give me a break... and Spidey cannot keep track of Venom at all times when he's on the loose... so what you call "taking responsibility" seems very irresponsible to me.

Another thing is why did Spider-Man ever let Norman go free... especially after Harry was dead. I could understand letting him free (with his amnesia) while Harry could care for his father, but there was no reason after his death... where's the responsibility in that?

And at the end of Marvel Team-Up #1 (1972), Spidey and the Torch decide to cut the Sandman a break because he wanted to see his Mom for X-Mas, and that action almost got them killed in the next issue, which occured "weeks" apart (as seen in #2) where the Sandman could have been hurting and/or killing people otherwise.

Again, none of them compare to Mephisto, I'm just trying to show a point that Peter can make irresponsible decisions from time to time...

'Nuff said.

And in today's Logic class - the Straw Man fallacy. t:

I never said Peter never made irresponsible decisions - obviously he's just as capable of making them as any other person. My point was that, when he's made a deal with one of his villains (my example being Venom since that's who was being used as an example) he generally had a reason for it; he made those decisions for the good of others, not himself. His deal with Mephisto doesn't fit that pattern.

I wouldn't be surprised by Venom killing a security guard, especially since the guard most likely mocked, abused, tortured, or did something else to take him off Venom's list of "innocents." That's assuming the death happened later when Eddie had become one of Marvel's "bad good guys."

As for the deal with Venom, did you even read the circumstances surrounding it? Peter was protecting the people he thought to be his just-back-from-dead parents, along with Eddie's ex-wife, who would have probably been injured or killed if the fight resumed. Also, it was doubtful Peter could have won since he didn't really have any weapons to actually hurt Venom, and he'd already achieved his goal; he had seen his parents safely out of Venom's clutches. Plus, it never said Peter really planned to let Venom go - the Spider-Tracer was proof of that. He finished the issue worrying about whether or not Venom would come after him again, not whether he should let Venom go or not. Also, just because Peter can't follow Venom 24/7 doesn't mean he probably wouldn't know it if Eddie started up his old killing habits - you can be assured if Marvel turned Venom back to the Dark Side, Spidey would be swinging into action to stop him.

Your GG and Sandman comments actually have little to do with my original point but I'll go ahead and address them. I left comics (was forced out, actually) around the time the Clone Saga was wrapping up, so I never saw Peter "let Norman go." When I came back and saw the first confrontation between the two (Marvel Knights: Spider-Man), Peter beat him up and put him in prison. I haven't read the stories that took place during my absence, but I understand many of them weren't very good. Since I haven't read them I can't really comment on Peter's motivations, but obviously he can make mistakes. I don't think that any "deal" was involved, however.

As for Sandman, if Spidey has any weakness when it comes to his enemies it would have to be compassion. That isn't a comic that I've read, but I can easily see Peter and Johnny letting Flint go. Heck, he's a reformed villain who has helped Spidey out in the past now, so that's a decision that probably turned out best in the end.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

My favorite part of this whole Mephisto/Venom discussion is that we just got done being lectured about moral relativism. And now, here we are, justifying shooting someone in the leg, rather than the head in order to defend Venom (frankly, one of the most over-rated villains to ever come down the pike.)

That's 'cause clueless people 1) don't pay attention to my lectures and 2) like Venom. heh. t:

 

[kguillou]

Hey I was just thinking of something, i was re-reading OMD and remember that lady in red? We never found out who she was but she said i'm a posibility yet to occur...Could it be scarlet witch? In OMD she was talking about making probabilities into possibilities, wasn't that scarlet witch's original power? I dunno, maybe that was forshadowing that potentially scarlet witch will play a role in peter's life later?...

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Hey I was just thinking of something, i was re-reading OMD and remember that lady in red? We never found out who she was but she said i'm a posibility yet to occur...Could it be scarlet witch?

Are you talking about the little girl in red???? I dont remember any other person in red with simular dialoge.

 

[kguillou]

No i'm talking about the mysterious woman in red that appeared in part 3, she was talking to peter about probabilities turning into possibilities. We never found out who she was. In part 4 she said " I'm a possibility yet to come..." I'm surprised no one else has been talking about this. I think its scarlet witch.

 

[T'Jai]

she was a grown up May Parker...

 

[kguillou]

I dont think so, because she said " I'm a possibility yet to come. But that's a discussion for another time...". Therefore i'm pretty sure it was someone else. If it was may then they might as well have said it.

 

[T'Jai]

due to the deal May was retconned out...question answered

 

[Dark Spidey]

she was a grown up May Parker...

Yeah that's the way I read it too.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'm only going to touch on this one briefly, and I'll get back to you on other situations...



Where is the responsibilty in this one?

I understand the lesser of two evils in Maximum Carnage, but in this one, Peter chooses to let a known killer go free because he doesn't want Venom to try and kill him. And while you say that he doesn't want Venom to go on killing sprees, whose to say that Venom, again, a known killer, doesn't kill again? It doesn't have to be a spree, it just has to be ONCE and Peter would be responsible for that person's death because of his very irresponsible "deal".

And one more time, I'm not saying that deals with Venom and deals with Satan are on par... duh. Obviously, the Devil deal is far worse, but when you look at this particular deal that you have brought up, we clearly see that there is a precedence for Peter making irresponsible decisions.

And that's all I was trying to point out.

Thanks for your time.

I'll just touch on this briefly, Pete LIED when he made his deals with venom. The first was after venom had saved someone and pete thought well as long as he tries to save rather than kill I'll leave him along but the minute he slips up I'm coming after him (which he did). Also Venom always managed to escape from any holding facility and kill a crap load of people doing it. So Pete's first deal saved a lot of lives. He completely lied on the second but venom got away after the last big fight. He was intending on taking venom down after carnage. All Pete's deals with venom were out of necessity and generally involved Pete not really honoring them because venom was a killer and Pete was just trying to save lives. (although comparing venom to satan would be like comparing captian america to venom)

This is a little different from making a deal with the devil (who doesn't even try and conceal his identity or trick Pete) ON HIS OWN TERMS!

The first deal/s make sense because he can always go back on them and they save people immediately, whereas the second only (forcibly) saved the life of someone who asked to die anyway!

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No i'm talking about the mysterious woman in red that appeared in part 3, she was talking to peter about probabilities turning into possibilities. We never found out who she was. In part 4 she said " I'm a possibility yet to come..." I'm surprised no one else has been talking about this. I think its scarlet witch.

That was baby May or an other child they may have had.....you need to read that page completly.It seems to look different but plame that on the artist but read it again and you'll see its the same person.

 

[Mephisto]

^ I LOVE bongs!

 

[DoomRulz]

You should try shisha.

 

[Miss Webb]

Y' know what would help me sleep at night? Retconning the crap that is OMD... Or Joe Q admitting he is wrong about it... without shifting the blame on MJ, JMS or anyone else but himself...
Dealing with the devil is Heroic... Gee! I never thought of it that way... Oh Satan! there's a kitten stuck in a tree, can you come and get it down?

I hope you've got a big pink pill ready...I doubt Joey Q will do True Confessions anytime soon.

And the numbers keep rising as we creep towards half a million thread responses!

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Nah... I've got Back issues and Spider-girl to keep me happy...

 

[DACMAN]

The principle remains the same. It's the angel dealing with the devil.

That is offically the dumbest thing ever. It's not angel dealing with the devil. It's angel making a deal with the devil that makes the devil happy. You make it sound like he beat the devil up or something.

 

[Miss Webb]

she was a grown up May Parker...

Mephisto in drag again, wearing that red wedding dress.