Overrated Batman writers

[Arkard]

Frank Miller
Of course we should all be grateful to him for giving us the great novel which is The Dark Knight Returns, which only helped to spark more interest to the Batman after O'Neil finally pulled it out of the swamps of the Silver Age and we definitely be grateful for one of the inspirations for Begins, Year One... but really, the man is terribly overrated as a Batman writer.
He only knows one type of male characters: broken down, almost suidical in their "boldness", heavy drinkers who are also quasi insane. Why must Batman be a big, though unshaven brute who might as well be in a straightjacket as the guys he rills in. Why do we need, and worse yet, yearn for a brooding nutcase dressed as a Bat, when we can have the composed genius that is not afraid to crack a joke or throw a quip, ala the Denny O'Neil Batman. You know, something that is not cliche...
And please dont get me started about Miller's female characters. If there were so many prostitutes in the world as he claims there are, chances are people would start loosing their virginity at age 12. Not that there would be anything wrong with that, I am just saying... not every woman sells her ass for cash. Maybe Miller has some repressed childhood memories...

The point: we should be thankful to Miller for TDKR, and Year One, we should be thankful to him for emphasasing the noir touch to Batman, but this is all in the past. Miller did his greatest Batman works, and then went to deliver the biggest pieces of garbage in the Batman collection. It's over for him, yet fans and DC sometimes act as Miller can do no wrong.
Well new's flash: he did, he can, and he most likely will. Give the man a rest. Let him write more Sin City.

Grant Morrison
Eh... again, same as Miller, there is alot to be thankful to the man. Well, I dont know if "alot" but there is something. "Arkham Asylum". Morrison was the first person I remember to not piss on the silver Age prankster Joker. He recognised him and actually managed to build a comprehensive thesis that did not look or smell like he pulled it out of his ass: The Super Sanity theory. It was GOOD. It made sense. It explained so much. But then it got overused and raped in Morrison's latest issue.
The carved smile Grinch Joker is terrible. OK? He has got cheapened to the point I cannot stand him nor care for him. The Super Sanity theory actually managed to royaly f~ck The Joker while saving his ass in the past. If he is so "crazy" that he rewrites hismelf, there is absolutely no reason not to make him a flower smelling all around happy go lucky hippy in a couple of years, cause hey, such a nutcase, you dont know what he will do next... please, take that sh~t away.
While Morrison has a good pen in writing a story, I feel he does not understand Batman's universe at all. He rather has his own vision to which he writes Batman, no matter how off they may be at points. Basically, he is the comic book equivalent of Tim Burton. True, they have real gems in their work, but they are most often about THEM. His stories are most often shockers with little respect to the essentials of characters. Yet DC would let him write a story where The Joker rapes and eats babies cause hey, he is Grant "Batman should tap a different ass each issue cause he is that hardcore cool" Morrison, the man who can do no wrong...

And I assume that the majority of you are above the age of 12 so I see no reason to prefix this rant with "In my oppinion".

Discuss. Or not.

 

[CConn]

You're a poo head.

 

[Arkard]

Thank you, so are you, buttface.

 

[CConn]

lol, for serious...

I agree with Miller. While he has written some great Batman stories, his written some pretty horrible ones as well, and should be judged for all of his Batman work. Not just DKR and YO. It's been years since he wrote Batman vs. Spawn, it's been years since he's written DKSA, it's been decades since he wrote ASB&R. It's time people realize, writing bad Batman stories isn't just a phase for Miller; it's become a continuous trend.

Grant Morrison, I don't agree firstly. Firstly, Morrison's not even THAT well known as a Batman writer. JLA and Animal Man have always been what he was known, and what (most) of the praise he receives is directed at. As a Batman writer, personally, I'm enjoying his writing as much as I ever have.

That said, even if I wasn't, I wouldn't expect everyone in the world to immediately think less of him within a few months of his run starting. Basically, I think we should give people - and his run itself - some more time to be accurately judged before we declare him this or that. I'm not saying you shouldn't dislike what he's doing at the moment, just that public perception always takes sometime to change.

 

[Arkard]

I didnt mean Morrison is famous for Batman, but Morrison is an overally very famous comic book writer, and just as many of the likes of him did in the past, I am starting to think he believed all the legends about himself and really got off loose on the whole creating part, basically just doing "his thing" (very much like Burton) without due respect to the essentials of Batman.
I stand by my statement that I feel he does not get Batman. But he sells. I know alot of people... unfortunely I know them, who would buy an issue JUST because Morrison had his hand in it. And that gets on my nerves. Morrison is reaching cult status and I think, OK, whatever, but dont let him become another Miller, basically letting him do whatever the hell he wants with the character. And DC will publish it. Cause it sells.

For me, I would much rather have them bring in new talents to the industry. Remember how it was in the past? Writers stayed on for years with the Bats. Now? Huh! They come in for an issue or a story arc or two, screw wuith continuity or mess up the basics, cash their check and so long.

I just dont get all the hype around Morrison, he has alot "hir or miss" ideas. Which doesnt really say good things about his "talent".

 

[silentflute]

Jeph Loeb- the man is a complete hack.

 

[Arkard]

Well I happen to like Loeb, but I may give you that The Long Halloween is certainly not the best Batman story ever written, as some "fans" will have you believe.

 

[CConn]

I didnt mean Morrison is famous for Batman, but Morrison is an overally very famous comic book writer, and just as many of the likes of him did in the past, I am starting to think he believed all the legends about himself and really got off loose on the whole creating part, basically just doing "his thing" (very much like Burton) without due respect to the essentials of Batman.

No offense, but most everyone does "their thing" with Batman. That's exactly what Frank Miller did on DKR.

I stand by my statement that I feel he does not get Batman.

What don't you think he gets about him? Personally, I certainly don't think he's the best Batman writer in the world, but it's not like he writes Batman like Frank Miller does; a lunatic.

But he sells. I know alot of people... unfortunely I know them, who would buy an issue JUST because Morrison had his hand in it.

Maybe because they like what Morrison writes. I mean, while his current Batman run might not have been universally beloved, his recent Seven Soldiers run was. As was his work on 52.

The man is, IMO (yes, I'm 12), a very good writer. And deserving of much of the praise he gets. And he's yet to have a Frank Miller-like slump where he can't write anything good. He can, he does. In most people's minds, at least.

And that gets on my nerves. Morrison is reaching cult status and I think, OK, whatever, but dont let him become another Miller, basically letting him do whatever the hell he wants with the character. And DC will publish it. Cause it sells.

Oh, I agree there. But, like I said, I don't believe he's anywhere near a slump in quality.

For me, I would much rather have them bring in new talents to the industry.

Well, DC did just sign the small-name Sean McKeever to help write one of their biggest series, so there one example, at least.

Remember how it was in the past? Writers stayed on for years with the Bats.

Actually, in the distant past, didn't writers only write random issues of books? I mean, if you look at Denny O'Neil's bibliography, you'll see - while he did write Batman for years - most of it was sporadic issues. He never really had a long, complete, run on either Batman or Detective. Yet, look what he was able to do with the book and the character.

Now? Huh! They come in for an issue or a story arc or two, screw wuith continuity or mess up the basics, cash their check and so long.

Grant Morrison and Paul Dini are both going to be on Batman and Detective for (at least) a year, and have been publically invited by Dan Didio to stay on for "as long as they'd like".

I just dont get all the hype around Morrison, he has alot "hir or miss" ideas. Which doesnt really say good things about his "talent".

Well, personally, I do get the Hype. Animal Man was one of the best comic runs ever, his years-long JLA run was fantastic, Arkham Asylum was fantastic, 52 was fantastic, and I'm enjoying his Batman run. There's really not much else he could do to improve that track record.

 

[Tojo]

agree about morrison. i hate his work.

And i hate some of Miller's work too, but then again DKSA is not overrated because no-one actually rated it in the first place. He either does something amazing or does something totally un-readable.

 

[Tojo]

Sorry i meant to say i hate Morrisons Batman work.

 

[CConn]

I will say, I do think Loeb's Batman work is a bit overrated. While TLH was a great story, I was never greatly impressed by Batman's characterization in it. I don't quite know how to put it, but to put it simply, Loeb seemed to put more effort into characterizing the villains rather than Batman himself.

 

[CConn]

Sorry i meant to say i hate Morrisons Batman work.

Which is my point exactly. When people praise Morrison, I really don't think it's his Batman work they're praising (although, obviously, Arkham Asylum is very well-liked).

 

[Tojo]

Arkham Asylum is very well liked by me also, but his current run....his Superman....

 

[CConn]

Most people ****ing love his Superman.

 

[Arkard]

No offense, but most everyone does "their thing" with Batman. That's exactly what Frank Miller did on DKR.

There is a difference between the different style of your writing (or drawing) and messing with the essentials. I mean, would it be OK if I wrote a story that depicted Bats as a self opressed homosexual with The Joker as his ex lover? And then go on, "woah man, relax, this is just my thing". It wouldn't be OK, it would go againts the dynamics of the character, the essentials I am mentioning all the time.
Sure, it could find it's place to an Elseworld if I wrote it good, but into the continuity. When you mess with the essentials DC has to go through all the crap which is Infinite Crisis. Though written quite nicely, I always crack a pity smile when I heard the story of the multiple universes. And the reason for it is one: the writers, who just wanted to do their own thing. To me, when you sit to a legend wich is Batman, you leave your ego at the door.
Be creative, but dont f~ck with the basics.

As for Miller: Well his Batman is set long in the future, we dont know what happened between now and then, so he is mostly forgiven for that. It did not meddle in the continuity.

What don't you think he gets about him?

His Batman is most often bland, and one dimensional. Nothing more than "Yeah, there is this cool guy wo is a billionaire and fights crime dressed as a Bat". This is where Morrison's Batman end, a typical character I never felt anything for.
And for The Joker- like I said, he looks at him as a guy who can do ANYTHING. And I mean anything. He does not see the theatricality of The Joker, he just sees him as a killing machine with a clownish face. Though I do like The Joker in Arkham Asylum, he was missing the heart of the character.

Well, DC did just sign the small-name Sean McKeever to help write one of their biggest series, so there one example, at least.

Good news.

Actually, in the distant past, didn't writers only write random issues of books? I mean, if you look at Denny O'Neil's bibliography, you'll see - while he did write Batman for years - most of it was sporadic issues. He never really had a long, complete, run on either Batman or Detective. Yet, look what he was able to do with the book and the character.

Denny was the main guy in DC for years, he overlooked alot of the creating process. This is how many good issues came to be. I feel whoever is checking up on the issues at DC now is really, really lazy.

Grant Morrison and Paul Dini are both going to be on Batman and Detective for (at least) a year, and have been publically invited by Dan Didio to stay on for "as long as they'd like".

Ugh... well then, I am glad I am not buying the issues.

Well, personally, I do get the Hype. Animal Man was one of the best comic runs ever, his years-long JLA run was fantastic, Arkham Asylum was fantastic, 52 was fantastic, and I'm enjoying his Batman run. There's really not much else he could do to improve that track record.

I meant the people praising him as the best Batman writer since O'Neil. He is not.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Jeph Loeb- the man is a complete hack.

Loeb's work with Tim Sale is absolute golden. Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, his issues on Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Catwoman: When in Rome, Superman: For All Seasons, Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, and Hulk: Grey are amazing.

However without Sale, Loeb is a hit and miss. His first arc on Superman/Batman "Public Enemies," was awesome. The second arc "Supergirl from Krypton" was so-so. The rest was just pure crap. His run on Supergirl was crap. His run on Batman with the "Hush" arc was good, but nothing great. His run on Wolverine has been pretty damn cool so far.

 

[silentflute]

Loeb's work with Tim Sale is absolute golden.

It's crap.


Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, his issues on Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Catwoman: When in Rome, Superman: For All Seasons, Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, and Hulk: Grey are amazing.

They're all laughable.His Batman work is derivative, his Superman plain uninspired and hi Marvel stuff is just retelling a story for the sake of updating.It's all pretentious crap.

However without Sale, Loeb is a hit and miss. His first arc on Superman/Batman "Public Enemies," was awesome. The second arc "Supergirl from Krypton" was so-so. The rest was just pure crap. His run on Supergirl was crap. His run on Batman with the "Hush" arc was good, but nothing great. His run on Wolverine has been pretty damn cool so far.

Sale is the equivalent of Loeb -on the art side of things.

 

[Motown Marvel]

anyone who calims grant morrison is over rated can go get hit by a truck.

 

[Arkard]

No can do chief.

 

[Mee]

I thought Morrison's latest Joker issue was the best of his run (dissapointing as it is) so far.

Frank Miller, I dunno what you would rate him. YO and DKR were great, but since then his Bat-work is crap. (that's the general opinion anyway, and mine) So can he really be overrated?

Jeph Loeb's stuff is great. Though I don't see what the big deal is with Haunted Knight. TLH, DV, and Hush are three of my favorite Batman stories.


But people are going to have different views, even jokingly I don't see why this has to turn into "buttface, get hit by a truck! "

 

[Tojo]

Loeb's work with Tim Sale is absolute golden. Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, his issues on Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Catwoman: When in Rome, Superman: For All Seasons, Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, and Hulk: Grey are amazing.

However without Sale, Loeb is a hit and miss. His first arc on Superman/Batman "Public Enemies," was awesome. The second arc "Supergirl from Krypton" was so-so. The rest was just pure crap. His run on Supergirl was crap. His run on Batman with the "Hush" arc was good, but nothing great. His run on Wolverine has been pretty damn cool so far.

I kindof agree. I love reading his work when with Sale. TLH, SFAS, C:WIR etc(not Dark Victory though and i don't read Marvel).

I really enjoyed Public Enemies too, disliked the second volume of Hush immensley and thought his second and thrid arc of Superman/Batman were terrible.

But TLH is a favourite for me.

 

[CConn]

There is a difference between the different style of your writing (or drawing) and messing with the essentials. I mean, would it be OK if I wrote a story that depicted Bats as a self opressed homosexual with The Joker as his ex lover? And then go on, "woah man, relax, this is just my thing". It wouldn't be OK, it would go againts the dynamics of the character, the essentials I am mentioning all the time.

But Morrison doesn't dipict Batman as a "self-oppressed homosexual". And does nothing close to that. Hell, even you have admitted that he only writes a bland Batman.

Sure, it could find it's place to an Elseworld if I wrote it good, but into the continuity. When you mess with the essentials DC has to go through all the crap which is Infinite Crisis. Though written quite nicely, I always crack a pity smile when I heard the story of the multiple universes. And the reason for it is one: the writers, who just wanted to do their own thing. To me, when you sit to a legend wich is Batman, you leave your ego at the door.
Be creative, but dont f~ck with the basics.

When did Morrison **** with the basics of Batman?

As for Miller: Well his Batman is set long in the future, we dont know what happened between now and then, so he is mostly forgiven for that. It did not meddle in the continuity.

His characterization of Batman greatly changed and influenced how Batman was characterized in continuity, though.

His Batman is most often bland, and one dimensional. Nothing more than "Yeah, there is this cool guy wo is a billionaire and fights crime dressed as a Bat". This is where Morrison's Batman end, a typical character I never felt anything for.
And for The Joker- like I said, he looks at him as a guy who can do ANYTHING. And I mean anything. He does not see the theatricality of The Joker, he just sees him as a killing machine with a clownish face. Though I do like The Joker in Arkham Asylum, he was missing the heart of the character.

I look at it this way, Morrison has outright stated that the Joker is many different things. Has always been many different things. And will always be many different things. The Joker in Batman #1, The Joker in the campy stories of the 60s and the Joker of today are all valid and equally-worthwhile versions of the character. In short, Morrison believes in inclusiveness when it comes to the Joker. He thinks all versions of the character should be celebrated.

You, however, come at me saying you personal opinion of the Joker is the outright best, and the "true" interpretation of the character, and any of the ones you don't like, are wrong, and "messes with the essentials." You're being exclusive when it comes to the Joker. You think only your vision of the character should be celebrated.

No offense, but if I had to choose between your opinion, and Morrison's, I choose his without a moment's hesitation.

Denny was the main guy in DC for years, he overlooked alot of the creating process.

Was Denny the main guy in DC in 1971? Because that's when he started writing sporadic issues of Batman and Detective.

This is how many good issues came to be. I feel whoever is checking up on the issues at DC now is really, really lazy.

How so?

Ugh...

Oh, so DC promoting long creative runs are only a good when you personally like the writer in particular?

I meant the people praising him as the best Batman writer since O'Neil. He is not.

I have honestly not seen a single person say he was the best Batman writer since Denny O'Neil. Nothing even close to that, actually.

 

[CConn]

Marvel stuff is just retelling a story for the sake of updating.It's all pretentious crap.

How is retelling stories pretentious? I mean, they're obviously unoriginal, but - having read them - I really don't see any pretentiousness in it.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I would say Morrison,he`s the most overrated writer at DC.But Miller made many contributions to Batman.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Loeb's work with Tim Sale is absolute golden.

It's crap.


Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, his issues on Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Catwoman: When in Rome, Superman: For All Seasons, Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, and Hulk: Grey are amazing.

They're all laughable.His Batman work is derivative, his Superman plain uninspired and hi Marvel stuff is just retelling a story for the sake of updating.It's all pretentious crap.

However without Sale, Loeb is a hit and miss. His first arc on Superman/Batman "Public Enemies," was awesome. The second arc "Supergirl from Krypton" was so-so. The rest was just pure crap. His run on Supergirl was crap. His run on Batman with the "Hush" arc was good, but nothing great. His run on Wolverine has been pretty damn cool so far.

Sale is the equivalent of Loeb -on the art side of things.

You hate writers like Loeb and Morrison simply because they completely contradict your little personal vision of Batman.