The Dark Knight Percieved fauts with the Nolan movies:

[sasquatchs]

I don't think the world itself is as constraining as it's made out to be, it just feels like a lack of confidence made them oversell their approach at the expense of decent drama and surprise.

 

[CaptainClown]

Fact is stranger then fiction

 

[undyingsoul]

I call it more legitimate rather than more realistic...its more down to earth, more subtle and not so flamboyant.

 

[regwec]

The (I shudder to use this word in relation to Nolans series but ok) realistic aspect of this series is probably one of my favorite aspects. Mainly because the reason why I liked Batman was because of how most of these characters weren't incredibly super powered just crazy or freakish in someway. I can definitly see why people don't like it though

Yes, and I don't call for the series to gravitate into some sort of high fantasy, but I think it is problematic if it attempts to be more "realistic" than the most "realistic" comic books.

The physical nature of The Joker is the litmus test for this: if the fictional environment of the movies cannot support the character as he has been written for generations, then that environment should be revised, rather than the character himself.

Batman and his world are subdued by comicbook standards, but not by real world standards. They remain fun, from our perspective, because they are more exciting, flamboyant and theatrical than our own experiences. That isn't a reflection on comics alone- the same goes for James Bond, Die Hard, Scarface and The Godfather. Directors adapting comicbooks shouldn't undermine their best assetts- vibrant characters; strong, operatic themes; spectacular setpieces and great visuals.

I don't want to see anymore characters sold short, or watered down. We have some real icons to (hopefully) await.

Two Face- hideous embodiment of the duality of the human condition.

The Riddler- costumed uber-nerd who treats crime like the rest of us treat sudoku.

The Penguin- eccentric, Capote-esque fat man with lavicious tastes and a shrewd criminal mind.

Catwoman- a kleptocratic ****-tease with a taste for tight leather and corporal punishment.

All of these are potentially cinematic icons- they need to be treated sensitively, and their nuances of character need to be given as much air as their costumes and capers- but for goodness sake don't unplug them from "fun" and connect them to "bland".

 

[undyingsoul]

The physical nature of The Joker is the litmus test for this: if the fictional environment of the movies cannot support the character as he has been written for generations, then that environment should be revised, rather than the character himself.

I highly disagree with that and I also highly disagree that Nolan is taking the fun out of these characters/world.

 

[CaptainClown]

I guess what you would call watered down I would say is more like bringing out the character. Showing that Batman can be a fantasy superhero group and easily switch gears and direction and head towards realism. The characters I dont see them as watered down just a different way of doing things.

 

[undyingsoul]

I guess what you would call watered down I would say is more like bringing out the character. Showing that Batman can be a fantasy superhero group and easily switch gears and direction and head towards realism. The characters I dont see them as watered down just a different way of doing things.

exactly, Batman has always been one the heroes people can relate to IMO and the direction of these movie make it whole lot more relative to me rather than someone being bleached pasty white which i doubt is all that possible anyways. I don't see how Joker is being 'watered down' in comparison to his comic counterpart when he acts and looks like the Joker, so if we were comparing to any Joker artist what do you have to say about Lee Bermejo's interpretation of the joker? is it watered down then?. As I said a couple of posts back I'm frankly sick of the p*ssing contest that is always going on betweens Nolans movies vs. the last four vs. the cartoon vs. the comics/novels

 

[COMPO]

i don't think his realism is ruining the franchise its just giving a new spin on it and besides the characters are the same just revamped like in the comic world.

 

[Monster]

I reckon the 'realism' so to speak is original to the Batman series.

 

[undyingsoul]

There always has and always will be different interpretations of these characters and the world in which they inhabit, so what exactly is THE definitive Joker or Batman? how is it that Nolan bastardizing it when he is giving his own take on it just like every other comic artist/director has? to my knowledge it never told how Joker came to be like he is in his first appearance, so how do we know cane and finger didn't rule him wearing makeup out as a possibility?

 

[sasquatchs]

Yes, and I don't call for the series to gravitate into some sort of high fantasy, but I think it is problematic if it attempts to be more "realistic" than the most "realistic" comic books.

The physical nature of The Joker is the litmus test for this: if the fictional environment of the movies cannot support the character as he has been written for generations, then that environment should be revised, rather than the character himself.

Batman and his world are subdued by comicbook standards, but not by real world standards. They remain fun, from our perspective, because they are more exciting, flamboyant and theatrical than our own experiences. That isn't a reflection on comics alone- the same goes for James Bond, Die Hard, Scarface and The Godfather. Directors adapting comicbooks shouldn't undermine their best assetts- vibrant characters; strong, operatic themes; spectacular setpieces and great visuals.

I don't want to see anymore characters sold short, or watered down. We have some real icons to (hopefully) await.

Two Face- hideous embodiment of the duality of the human condition.

The Riddler- costumed uber-nerd who treats crime like the rest of us treat sudoku.

The Penguin- eccentric, Capote-esque fat man with lavicious tastes and a shrewd criminal mind.

Catwoman- a kleptocratic ****-tease with a taste for tight leather and corporal punishment.

All of these are potentially cinematic icons- they need to be treated sensitively, and their nuances of character need to be given as much air as their costumes and capers- but for goodness sake don't unplug them from "fun" and connect them to "bland".

I don't think the Joker's appearance reflects on the psychology of the others. Only Two-Face physically compares but there's no way to separate the deformity from the character.

There is plenty of precedent for blandness from Begins though, Bruce reputation as Batman might be theatrical but Nolan's shown him to be straight-laced and wholesome in his motivation, and you couldn't get less deviant than the chaste Rachel. Throw the unthreatening stereotype Falcone in there too. But to me it's more superficial execution rather than being the wrong approach entirely

 

[fcrowelle06]

exactly, Batman has always been one the heroes people can relate to IMO and the direction of these movie make it whole lot more relative to me rather than someone being bleached pasty white which i doubt is all that possible anyways. I don't see how Joker is being 'watered down' in comparison to his comic counterpart when he acts and looks like the Joker, so if we were comparing to any Joker artist what do you have to say about Lee Bermejo's interpretation of the joker? is it watered down then?. As I said a couple of posts back I'm frankly sick of the p*ssing contest that is always going on betweens Nolans movies vs. the last four vs. the cartoon vs. the comics/novels

looks more like some junkie dressing up like a joker wannabe....yeah,as i said before, I'll take the perma-clown over the sloppy make-up any day of the week

 

[fcrowelle06]

There always has and always will be different interpretations of these characters and the world in which they inhabit, so what exactly is THE definitive Joker or Batman? how is it that Nolan bastardizing it when he is giving his own take on it just like every other comic artist/director has? to my knowledge it never told how Joker came to be like he is in his first appearance, so how do we know cane and finger didn't rule him wearing makeup out as a possibility?

ummm...the comics...B:TAS....and no not Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns or his All Star Batman and Robin, which is essentially the thought process of Frank Miller if he was batman

 

[Anguissette1979]

ummm...the comics...B:TAS....and no not Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns or his All Star Batman and Robin, which is essentially the thought process of Frank Miller if he was batman

ummm... haven't there been many MANY comic versions of Batman/Joker? Isn't B:TAS just an adaptation of a comic and if we used that as "definitive source material" isn't that just like a giant game of telephone? An adaptation of an adaptation of one of a number of sources (the different comic eras)...

 

[fcrowelle06]

ummm... haven't there been many MANY comic versions of Batman/Joker? Isn't B:TAS just an adaptation of a comic and if we used that as "definitive source material" isn't that just like a giant game of telephone? An adaptation of an adaptation of one of a number of sources (the different comic eras)...

yes, your right there has been many interpretations of them, but those interpretations deal with their behavior or their origin or their character, but this is the first in their 70 YEAR LONG HISTORY that someone decided, hey maybe the Joker shouldn't be a perma-clown....FINE I GET IT, but just because I think Heath ledger will be great in the role, doesn't mean that I have to like the look of a spattered Junkie Joker more than the look of the Clean, Perma-clown, and Perma-white Joker in every single incarnation

 

[undyingsoul]

yes, your right there has been many interpretations of them, but those interpretations deal with their behavior or their origin or their character, but this is the first in their 70 YEAR LONG HISTORY that someone decided, hey maybe the Joker shouldn't be a perma-clown....FINE I GET IT, but just because I think Heath ledger will be great in the role, doesn't mean that I have to like the look of a spattered Junkie Joker more than the look of the Clean, Perma-clown, and Perma-white Joker in every single incarnation

there is no definitive version is what i'm getting at, and im glad they are breaking a 70 year tradition its called originality.

 

[fcrowelle06]

based on what...Nolan's realistic vision? I'm sorry I don't call that originality, Nolan simply brought the closest vision of Batman from the comics to the Real World, it wasn't original, he just took a concept and did it better, the thought of the Joker not being permanently a clown or perma-white isn't an original thought, many comic book writers have discussed that take but have deviated from it at the last minute from making him too human, sympathetic, less monstrous, The Perma-clown gives him DIFFERENT

 

[Anguissette1979]

based on what...Nolan's realistic vision? I'm sorry I don't call that originality, Nolan simply brought the closest vision of Batman from the comics to the Real World, it wasn't original, he just took a concept and did it better, the thought of the Joker not being permanently a clown or perma-white isn't an original thought, many comic book writers have discussed that take but have deviated from it at the last minute from making him too human, sympathetic, less monstrous, The Perma-clown gives him DIFFERENT

I don't think cutting your face into a permanent smile (or playing up hideous scars made by someone else) makes him any less monstrous - in fact, that would be more terrifying to me than someone who had a chemical accident...

 

[Ama Zing]

Agreed, it's much creepier for a guy to permanently disfigure himself for little logical reason.
Perma-white Joker's creepy, but a self-white Joker's just a step creepier.

 

[undyingsoul]

based on what...Nolan's realistic vision? I'm sorry I don't call that originality, Nolan simply brought the closest vision of Batman from the comics to the Real World, it wasn't original, he just took a concept and did it better, the thought of the Joker not being permanently a clown or perma-white isn't an original thought, many comic book writers have discussed that take but have deviated from it at the last minute from making him too human, sympathetic, less monstrous, The Perma-clown gives him DIFFERENT

how is he sympathetic and less of a monster if he wears makeup? so you sympathize with real world psycho's and serial killers because they aren't permanently pasty white with green hair? do you you see them as less of monster for their appearance rather than their psychosis and horrible acts of violence? I'm not saying Joker should look like a normal person he should at LEAST wear the makeup but i'm saying I would rather see Nolan stay true to the personality of the Joker rather than him make his appearance identical to one of the comics or TAS as long as his appearance gives me the joker vibe and he looks joker-ish enough to me then i'm fine with makeup

 

[undyingsoul]

and i dont like it when people says he could just be any average killer in paint because if people turned out looking like that from being dunked into chemicals someone could do that just as easy IMO and I think it makes Joker creepier that he actually CHOOSES to embody the clown esque look rather than it being an accident.

 

[fcrowelle06]

yeah well I would be more frightened of a guy who can't take off the make-up and has a chilling smile while gutting me (Makes you want to laugh doesn't it, Artie...Jokerites will remember this line) frankly were never gonna agree, so let's drop this moot point, but I'll take the comics character of him being permanent in killing Jason Todd, crippling Barbara Gordon, killing Sarah Essen and countless women, men, and children as a perma-clown over Nolan's version, even though I bet it will be fantastic

 

[Stotch]

and i dont like it when people says he could just be any average killer in paint because if people turned out looking like that from being dunked into chemicals someone could do that just as easy IMO and I think it makes Joker creepier that he actually CHOOSES to embody the clown esque look rather than it being an accident.

Agreed 100%. I've made that point out to others before.

 

[fcrowelle06]

how is he sympathetic and less of a monster if he wears makeup? so you sympathize with real world psycho's and serial killers because they aren't permanently pasty white with green hair? do you you see them as less of monster for their appearance rather than their psychosis and horrible acts of violence? I'm not saying Joker should look like a normal person he should at LEAST wear the makeup but i'm saying I would rather see Nolan stay true to the personality of the Joker rather than him make his appearance identical to one of the comics or TAS as long as his appearance gives me the joker vibe and he looks joker-ish enough to me then i'm fine with makeup

actually I symapathize with everyone who's y'know...REAL,, besides I'm a christian, it's kinda of like..my job

 

[undyingsoul]

yeah well I would be more frightened of a guy who can't take off the make-up and has a chilling smile while gutting me (Makes you want to laugh doesn't it, Artie...Jokerites will remember this line) frankly were never gonna agree, so let's drop this moot point, but I'll take the comics character of him being permanent in killing Jason Todd, crippling Barbara Gordon, killing Sarah Essen and countless women, men, and children as a perma-clown over Nolan's version, even though I bet it will be fantastic

so because it was perma white joker killing jason and crippling barbara makeup joker isnt capable of it?