Dark Phoenix Phoenix must be destroyed!" The Official Lilandra Thread

[I Am The Knight]

That would be totally unnecessary.

Which is why it will happen

 

[Lip]

That would be totally unnecessary.

But it needs to be grounded and not too intergalactic, remember?

 

[DigificWriter]

I feel a need to put this out there before anybody else suggests it: Jessica Chastain is not playing Emma Frost... because Emma Frost is dead.

Logan's actions in DoFP only undid events that had happened AFTER 1973, and by that point, Emma had been dead for at least a couple of years, having been slaughtered and dissected by Trask.

 

[Frankeh]

Lol... there was an adult Caliban in the 80's and in the 2020's. Safe to say there is no stopping a character showing up again whether dead or not. It frankly doesn't seem to matter to the filmmakers.

 

[DigificWriter]

Lol... there was an adult Caliban in the 80's and in the 2020's. Safe to say there is no stopping a character showing up again whether dead or not. It frankly doesn't seem to matter to the filmmakers.

They clearly intended the Caliban from Apocalypse and the Caliban from Logan to be the same exact character, but "nice try".

 

[Frankeh]

They clearly intended the Caliban from Apocalypse and the Caliban from Logan to be the same exact character, but "nice try".

Nice try, but Mangold put Caliban in Logan before knowing he was in Apocalypse. There was no "intended" there, no "coordination".

 

[DigificWriter]

Even if Mangold didn't initially know that Caliban was already in Apocalypse, it's not actually an example of discontinuity or grounds to assume that FOX would blatantly ignore the stated deaths of characters.

That's where your example falls flat and your argument fails.

 

[Zarex]

Even if Mangold didn't initially know that Caliban was already in Apocalypse, it's not actually an example of discontinuity or grounds to assume that FOX would blatantly ignore the stated deaths of characters.

That's where your example falls flat and your argument fails.

So.....the poster's example falls flat and their argument fails. Only for a completely different justification from what you originally provided (clearly intended, same exact character, blah, blah blah).

Anyhoo, Emma Frost IS alive, as I totally saw her being rescued from Stryker's Three Mile Island mutant experimentation facility. That occurred well after the 70s era events in DOFP.

 

[DigificWriter]

Anyhoo, Emma Frost IS alive, as I totally saw her being rescued from Stryker's Three Mile Island mutant experimentation facility. That occurred well after the 70s era events in DOFP.

Umm, what?

 

[I Am The Knight]

He's talking about X-Men Origins: Wolverine

 

[DigificWriter]

He's talking about X-Men Origins: Wolverine

There are two huge things wrong with that, then:
1) The character we saw in that film was never actually identified - except in non-Canonical promotional materials - as actually BEING Emma Frost

2) The events of that film happened pre-DoFP, and were, although not "erased", rendered obsolete by being relegated to an alternate timeline

Emma Frost (the ACTUAL Emma Frost) is D-E-A-D.

 

[marvelrobbins]

There are two huge things wrong with that, then:
1) The character we saw in that film was never actually identified - except in non-Canonical promotional materials - as actually BEING Emma Frost

2) The events of that film happened pre-DoFP, and were, although not "erased", rendered obsolete by being relegated to an alternate timeline

Emma Frost (the ACTUAL Emma Frost) is D-E-A-D.

they retconed that being not emma frost since they never idneifed her onscreen or credits as emma frost.

post dofp the threemile island events don't happen in present timeline.since wolverine was at aklai lake in 1983 unlike origins.and it took jean,cyclops,and nightcrawler to free him.

 

[DigificWriter]

they retconed that being not emma frost since they never idneifed her onscreen or credits as emma frost.

It wasn't a retcon, because the character in XMO:W was never actually Emma Frost in the first place.

How hard is that for people to understand and accept without being snarky and trying to find reasons to complain?

 

[Zarex]

It wasn't a retcon, because the character in XMO:W was never actually Emma Frost in the first place.

How hard is that for people to understand and accept without being snarky and trying to find reasons to complain?

It can be challenging for folks to accept that something that looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck is in fact a pheasant. But I am not complaining - continuity problems are inevitable in long running series. Even the MCU has had recent continuity concerns with the Spider Man:Homecoming (A MARVEL STUDIOS film that featured the MARVEL STUDIOS production intro) timeline.

 

[DigificWriter]

It can be challenging for folks to accept that something that looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck is in fact a pheasant.

Your analogy fails because, in all actuality, the continuity of the X-franchise is only PERCEIVED to be overly flawed.

The actual amount of continuity errors in the series can be tallied on one hand.

 

[marvelrobbins]

It wasn't a retcon, because the character in XMO:W was never actually Emma Frost in the first place.

How hard is that for people to understand and accept without being snarky and trying to find reasons to complain?

i will give critics something promational videos idenified her as emma frost.now neith the actual film nor credits idenified her as emma frost so i go by that.they had wiggle room which they used.

plus the emms in origins has no telepathic powers and is siter of silverfox so easy to dismiss that as not emma frost.besides the main events of origins don't happen in this timeline.back in 2014 lauren shueller donnor even said fans could forget about origins and last stand though origins is still important as origin of wolverine and the pre-1973 part are still part of timeline.last stand is important to help get from first class to dofp apocalypic future.last stand's version of phoenix is stillr elvent with apocalypse and dark phoenix it's just xavier now doesn't put the mental blocks in.

emma frost is dead in timeline of series.

 

[Zarex]

Your analogy fails because, in all actuality, the continuity of the X-franchise is only PERCEIVED to be overly flawed.

The actual amount of continuity errors in the series can be tallied on one hand.

How many fingers you got?
http://screenrant.com/times-x-men-movie-timeline-made-no-sense/

 

[DigificWriter]

Let's go through each of those "problems" one by one, shall we?

15. ADAMANTI-UM… WHAT?

2013’s The Wolverine had its ups, its downs, and its outright oddities. The latter category found particular fault with the mutant’s singular skeleton, a gift had been reinforced with adamantium at some point in the 70s. Thanks to the sadistic efforts of Colonel Stryker, Wolverine’s bodily weapons became indestructible destruction devices. But all that goes south the very moment Ichiro Yashida hacks off his blades, revealing a jagged pair of bone claws lurking beneath. It was aesthetically uncomfortable, but at least it raised the narrative stakes.

Sadly, this change proves pointless by the time Professor X (Patrick Stewart) and Magneto (Ian McKellen) approach Wolverine in a post-credit teaser. Aside from the fact that “grave danger” turns out to be decades away, this prelude to Days of Future Past (2014) invents a world where Wolverine has somehow grown back his adamantium claws! Whether aided by Magneto or outside forces, the viewers are provided no excuse or explanation as to the actual cause. Just a fresh pair of blades chalked up to “curious convenience.”

This is something that goes unexplained; that doesn't make it a "problem" or a "continuity error".

14. CEREBRO CREDIT

Charles Xavier always seemed like a straight shooter. A sincere, straightforward man who strived to tell the truth and practice what he preached, regardless of the repercussions. As such, it was strange to find out this slice of humble mutant pie enjoys taking credit for other people’s inventions – namely, Cerebro. It’s established in Bryan Singer’s X-Men (2000) that Xavier and Magneto were the co-creators of the device, which served as a mental gateway to the entire world. Xavier, the towering psychological titan of all mutants, was the obvious author behind this thinking man’s machine, and accepting as much made pretty solid sense.

Then, the revisionist confusion of X-Men: First Class kicked in. The origin story opted to break away from the old man’s assured words and grant credit to a young Hank McCoy (Nicholas Hoult), who’s seen working on Cerebro all by his lonesome. Even with Magneto helping rebuild at the end of Apocalypse, this authorship holds true. Either the Professor is slipping in his old age, or he’s mighty pissy that Hank made such a cool toy without him.

This is a RETCON, and is therefore neither a "problem" NOR a "continuity error".

13. MUTANT CURE CONFUSION

Poor Hank can’t seem to catch a break. A huge plot point in Days of Future Past dealt with Professor X and his inability to cope with pressure. A sodded mess with scraggly hair and a rotten demeanor, he is a lost soul stranded amidst the mutant school circa 1973. He’s also completely powerless, and able to walk, thanks to the efforts of wonderboy scientist Hank McCoy. In an effort to combat Xavier’s physical pain, Hank a.k.a. Beast invented a serum that suppressed mutant genes altogether, while enabling paralysis to disappear as well.

And yet, no one is more surprised than he when a mutant cure is discovered in 2006’s The Last Stand. Flabbergasted at the thought of such a forward thinking concoction, the big blue brain acts as if he hadn’t invented the same exact thing… three decades earlier. Even with the “altered timeline” card that many fans like to play, this doesn’t apply to events before Wolverine’s arrival – leaving this cure as nothing more than a fumbled case of common sense.

Suppressing mutant powers is not anywhere close to being the same thing as removing them entirely, which is what the "cure" itself was purported to do. However, even if you buy that argument, this is still not actually a "problem" or "continuity error".

12. EMMA FROST FLUBBED

Emma Frost (January Jones) first struts her shimmering stuff in 2011’s X-Men: First Class. Playing second-in-command to dapper bad guy Sebastian Shaw (Kevin Bacon), Frost’s ability to turn into diamond was a textbook example of how to make a compelling comic book character completely forgettable. Jones’ portrayal wasn’t exactly well-received by longtime fans, who felt her charisma (or lack thereof) was a little too close to the stiff diamonds she resembled. Sharing a fate similar to that of Bolivar Trask in The Last Stand, the adored comic character was seemingly wheeled back into the well from which she came.

Of course, being that no X-Men role is complete without contradictory info, a similar mutant reemerges at the tail end of X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Spotted as a young woman with the same diamond abilities, the end credits confirmed such an appearance to belong to the one and only Emma Frost. Being that this particular scene was set in 1985, it goes against everything previously established with her adult character in First Class. And if it is fact two different mutants, Fox should’ve done a far better job illustrating that point.

The author of this ScreenRant article seems incapable of understanding basic logic, because, as noted, this "problem" is based entirely on NON-CANONICAL - and therefore completely irrelevant - information and supposition, and is therefore not actually a "problem" OR a "continuity error". At best, it's a RETCON, which, again, does not make it a "problem" or "continuity error".

11. FAKE FIRST CLASS

Again with the dishonesty. This time, Professor X is sharing a moment of poignant reflection with his star pupils: Jean Grey, Cyclops, and Storm. The year is 2000, and director Bryan Singer constructs a scene ripe with emotion, while building a backstory for the team that fans had yet to see. All things considered, it felt sincere when Xavier explains his belief in the trio, stating that they were the first mutants he ever had the pleasure of teaching when he opened his school for the gifted.

We now know this to be utter nonsense, given that the Professor was teaching at least a decade before these three arrived, with what looks to be a seriously large body of young mutants. It’s of minor mention in the original film, but such a blatant disregard for established lore goes a long way in ruining X-Men logic. And seriously, someone’s got to get Xavier under control. Dude’s turned into a pathological liar.

This is not a "problem" or a "continuity error". At best, it's a retcon, and, at worst (and more accurately), it's yet another example of this article's author taking their own opinions and using them to manufacture a "problem" where none actually exists.

10. INCONSISTENT STORMS

Alexandra Shipp’s portrayal of Storm is one of the few things receiving a warm response in X-Men: Apocalypse, and it’s easy to see why. Hailing from the streets of Cairo in this character reboot, the weather-savvy mutant sports a scrappy demeanor and accented touch that puts her in cahoots with the film’s titular villain (Oscar Isaac). Even still, this improved take on the role poses big problems for franchise continuity, in more ways than one.

For starters, Halle Berry’s Storm had not the slightest trace of Kenyan descent – or accent, for that matter. It’s doubtful she would’ve migrated to America, and somehow lost all cultural roots in the span of a decade, but that seems to be the only possible explanation. Secondly, the whole episode with Apocalypse is apparently swept under the rug with Xavier, who instead chooses to lump her in with Cyclops and Jean. Either he’s forgotten another crucial event, or the chrome-domed professor is too bashful to bring it up.

This is not a "problem". It is an expansion of character AND a retcon all rolled into one.

9. MYSTIQUE MISTAKES

The original X-Men trilogy barely made use of Mystique (Rebecca Romijn). Sly, secretive, and seductive, she wasn’t much more than a lethal sidekick for Magneto, a blue body who could hack into the nation’s national security at the drop of a hat. Her emotional association was sparse at best, spurred by cold shoulder treatment of fellow mutants like Professor X and Wolverine. At face value, it’d be fair to assume Mystique never knew these men outside of being mortal enemies. Of course, face value turns into a facepalm when the prequel films show her to be just as vital to the series as any of her sworn male counterparts.

Not only did Mystique (kinda) save the mutton-chopped mutant in Days of Future Past, she grew up by Xavier’s side for decades! On top of that, the close relationship shared with Magneto in Future Past and Apocalypse is unmistakable, yet he’s quick to leaver her behind in The Last Stand. Why? It’s obvious that Jennifer Lawrence enhances the importance of a role, but Mystique’s character progression is so illogical that it’s impossible to take seriously.

This, like the other six things on this list so far, is neither a "problem" nor a "continuity error". It , like the Storm thing, represents both a retcon and an expansion of character, and, furthermore, is in fact explained WITHIN THE ACTUAL NARRATIVE of Days of Future Past.

8. BOLIVAR TRASK, PLEASE STAND UP

The Last Stand really stuck it to the X-Men franchise in 2006. It strived to cram so many characters and storylines into a single overstuffed mess that it only succeeded in tainting the entire saga. As a result, there’s been plenty that Singer and screenwriter Simon Kinberg (The Last Stand co-writer) have had to ignore moving forward, and none have proven more bizarre than iconic villain Bolivar Trask. Initially portrayed by actor Bill Duke in X3, the Sentinel mastermind was an opportunity that proved more wasteful than it was exciting. For being vital to one of the greatest X-Men story arcs in existence, the dastardly human was far from compelling onscreen.

By the time this sick puppy returned in Days of Future Past, Trask had somehow transformed from the black, 6’4’’ Bill Duke to 4’5’’ to the white little person, Peter Dinklage – a doozy that damn near no one could pretend to ignore. Some fans have even attempted to use the fact that Duke was never directly called Bolivar as proof he could be another “Trask,” though the film’s commentary firmly disproves any such delusions.

This, like so many of the other "problems" on this list, is a RETCON.

7. STRYKER STRUGGLES

Days of Future Past is the best X-Men film for several reasons. Continuity is not one of them. Excluding the “bone claw” debacle, the closing scenes are curiously misleading in what they suggest for sequel X-Men: Apocalypse. Unconscious amidst the wreckage of Magneto’s hissy fit, Wolverine is pulled from the river by what looks to be a young William Stryker (Josh Helman). Come to find out, it’s actually Mystique in disguise, and all is well with the mutant team as they alter the past and save a Dystopian future.

Funnily enough, this doesn’t seem to be the case when Wolverine (Hugh Jackman) finally shows his face in Apocalypse. Wired up and brainwashed as part of the Weapon X program, the savage mutant looks as though he didn’t do too hot in the decade following Future Past. Not only does this contradict the twist ending of the last film, but it also sparks other common sense questions; namely, why has no one bothered to find out where he’s been? Or more importantly, does this mean we can erase the backstory horror of X-Men Origins.

6. ANGEL

They did it again! Someone at Fox should get a reward for the most recast characters in a single franchise, because these X-Men movies are taking it to the next level. Angel (Ben Hardy), the punk sporting scraper, is introduced as early as 1983. Relegated to fighting in underground clubs, the mutant is quickly swept up by the charm of Apocalypse, who reinforces his exposed wings with unbreakable metal. That he fights, lives, and ultimately dies as one of the Four Horseman is a big fat disservice to the character, who served as one of the X-Men’s founding members in the comic books.

Naturally, Angel appears once more in The Last Stand, first as struggling kid, and then as an angry young man eager to support his mutant brethren. Played by a troubled Ben Foster, the portrayal once again bypassed Angel’s source material decency. On top of this, the idea that he was a twenty-something in the 80s, died, and was born again to be the same age nearly two decades later is laughable. It wouldn’t be so bad if the films actually made relevant use of these recycled characters, but each return trip proves equally as disappointing.

This is not a "problem". It is a narrative conceit based on the concept of Days of Future Past creating a completely new timeline, something that this article's author is either unwilling to comprehend or completely incapable of comprehending.

5. ENDLESS SUMMERS

Alex Summers (Lucas Till) was recruited by the X-Men in 1962, placing the young mutant in his mid 20s (or at least his late teens). Given that sibling Scott was a grown man comes the early 2000s, this would imply Alex is a good four decades older than his little brother – a feat unachievable by most human parents. To make matters worse, Xavier spots a younger version of Scott in First Class, which means the man also known as Cyclops should technically be in his 50s by the time the original X-Men comes about. Obviously, this isn’t the case, implying that either the boy in question was freakishly similar, or the Summers brothers have unlocked the key to eternal youth.

Don’t worry, it gets better. Jumping forward (or backward?) to Apocalypse in 1983, Scott has only grown to teenage status, while Alex continues to look the exact same he did two decades prior. By some unseen magical force, these two have the ability to defy all logic and be whatever age required in the story. Incredibly convenient for the filmmakers, not so much for viewers. On the bright side, this entry raises the bar that much higher for botched continuity.

This is yet another example of this article's author manufacturing "problems" where none actually exist based solely on non-canonical information and supposition.

4. PROFESSOR P. XAVIER

Fans were pretty pissed when Professor X bit the bullet in The Last Stand. The death of the iconic character was shocking on several grounds; least of all being the fact that it arrived so early in the trilogy’s (supposed) final chapter. Director Brett Ratner, the pariah of the mutant community, also bungles the murder to the point where it barely feels relevant or deserved for one of the franchise’s core members. Not only was he killed, but Dark Phoenix went the extra mile and obliterated his body outright, solidifying the fact that Xavier had taught his final class.

Then, as if Fox execs decided to pencil in a happy ending, the post-credits of the film show a comatose body that looks eerily familiar. Come to find out, the body belongs to P. Xavier, Charles’ brain dead identical twin, and a perfect vessel for the Professor’s orphaned psyche. Even if this wasn’t the most ridiculous thing to occur in the entire franchise (which it certainly is), it still leaves quite a few continuity flaws heading into Days of Future Past (2014). Most glaringly: how is it that this new body shares the same exact paralysis as Charles? Hmm…

This, like the Mystique thing, is an example of this article's author ignoring actual narrative explanations in order to find something to complain about, and doing so based solely on their own opinions.

3. MOIRA MACTAGGERT, M.D.

The Last Stand post-credits, aside from setting up Xavier’s resurrection, also manages to bungle the existence of Moira MacTaggert. Originally conceived as a genetic expert in the comic books, the MacTaggert spotted here is nothing more than a physician aiding the new Xavier’s body. Played by English actress Olivia Williams, it was meant as a sly nod and nothing more, another case of utterly wasting a character. Matters were made even worse with the arrival of X-Men: First Class, which recast MacTaggert as a CIA agent specializing in mutant infiltration.

Dropping the Scottish origins of the role, Rose Byrne’s perky take on the character was wildly different than anything fans had seen before – or should have seen. Given MacTaggert’s existence as a thirty-something government agent in the 1960s, she would have to be nearing 80 come the new millennium – a logic that’s clearly ruined by the appearance of 38-year-old Williams. Unless these two are mother and daughter who share the same name, this is yet another idea that fails to add up.

The only place that this "fails to add up" (like so many of the other things on this list) is in this author's mind.

***

I'm not even going to bother addressing the final two "problems" on this list because they're so patently outrageous and manufactured that it's not even worth my time responding to them.

There is not a single "issue" on that list that represents an actual continuity error within the X-verse.

 

[Lip]

Logan's actions in DoFP only undid events that had happened AFTER 1973

And both Bolivar Trask and Moira were born before 73.

Actually Jubilee, Psylocke and Angel too, because they are not only 10 years old in Apocalypse.


It's just so much easier to admit they don't care about that, and the continuity of this franchise is a mess. That is just a fact.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ The Trask thing is a RETCON, and therefore does not and CANNOT represent a continuity error.

How hard is it for people to understand that?

The Moira example is simply people refusing to use common sense, logic, and critical thinking in order to find an explanation and instead choosing to hold it up as a problem simply for the sake of having something to complain about and criticize the X-franchise for.

Also, while it might be "easier" to sit here and criticize the X-franchise for "continuity errors" when half the things that are being criticized are not in fact examples of "f-ed up continuity", doing so is totally disingenuous and smacks strongly of "alternative facts".

 

[Frankeh]

Your analogy fails because, in all actuality, the continuity of the X-franchise is only PERCEIVED to be overly flawed.

The actual amount of continuity errors in the series can be tallied on one hand.

I see you work with alternative facts just like the president.

It is a fact that X-Men First Class doesn't line up with lines of dialogue by Xavier, not a question of perception by any means. And Singer ADMITTED that.

 

[DigificWriter]

RETCONS ARE NOT CONTINUITY ERRORS, so, yet again, "You get nothing. You lose. Good day, Sir".

 

[Frankeh]

You tried it. Even if that was true, retcons are NOT a good thing, so people are fully in their right to give this franchise **** for it.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

I don't get why people are hung up on the Moira and Trask thing. Especially the Trask thing. Senator Trask's first name is never even mentioned, so he and Bolivar Trask only share the same last name. How many human beings on this earth share the same last name as someone else? Damn near every single one.

As for Moira, while it's somewhat less likely for Xavier to be friends with two people with that particular first and last name, it's still not impossible. Especially since they might be related for all we know. We know Moira has kids, after all.

 

[DigificWriter]

You tried it. Even if that was true, retcons are NOT a good thing, so people are fully in their right to give this franchise **** for it.

Retcons are only a problem or a "bad thing" when people want to have something to whine about.

Retconning is a perfectly acceptable and accepted storytelling tool that gets used all the time in fiction.