Plot holes/poor storytelling discussion

[roach]

I did too. After Watchmen, where I was meticulously watching how every scene matched up to the comic, it was actually kinda nice to see a movie where I had no idea what was going to happen. I know it's sacrilege to some, and I didn't love everything they changed, but I really didn't mind them mixing things up a little.

if you are doing a storyline from the comics then it should follow the comics with minor tweeks. A story based on a story from the comics...aka X2= God Loves Man Kills is ok for changes

 

[MrWayne]

if you are doing a storyline from the comics then it should follow the comics with minor tweeks. A story based on a story from the comics...aka X2= God Loves Man Kills is ok for changes

agreed on that point as well.. I MYSELF would think ESPECIALLY with something called Origines that they would stay in tune with that origine.. minor tweaking is fine.. but Wolverine got major changes.. and im specifically talking about how and why he got his adamantium... that was not a minor tweak that was a distortion of history...

 

[chaseter]

I did too. After Watchmen, where I was meticulously watching how every scene matched up to the comic, it was actually kinda nice to see a movie where I had no idea what was going to happen. I know it's sacrilege to some, and I didn't love everything they changed, but I really didn't mind them mixing things up a little.

To be fair, we all knew what was going to happen in this movie The X-Men movies follow the comics with some changes. Sure Watchmen was more faithful but it also had quite a few changes. But, anyone who knows the history of any of these franchises knows what is going to happen in these movies. I know what happens in Half Blood Prince

 

[TheZink]

I think I'm one of the few people who actually likes these changes. I think I would find it boring if the movies were exactly the same as the comics. Sure, they'll have to keep the powers more or less the same, and it's always nice if the characters are at least recognisable. But I think, since the comics have so many stoylines, it's nice to know they use their own creativity to shape a story. It adds something, rather than ruining established things.

Changes to a movie is one thing.

Joker in TDK with makeup is fine. The character remains the same. Making Rogue in Xmen not have her abilities like in the comics is fine, as long as you keep continuity over the movies.

What is not fine is undermining or changing details and characters that are already established in a series of movies for no real reason other than "ooohs" and "ahhhs"

Can anyone give a GOOD reason to have changed Cyclops from having Force Optic Blasts, to Laser Beams? The same for the change to Wolverine's experience in Weapon-X and any other inconsistency.

Changes made to characters from the comics didn't bother me if it flowed well with the rest of the movies. Kayla being changed? Didn't mind it. Her and Emma Frost being sisters? Strange, but not really bothersome. Blob's character? He was under-used and really wasn't needed but the change to his character didn't bother me one bit.

I'll be the first to try and accept a change made to a characters history when being brought to film as long as the general feel and personality of the character is there. The changes made in this film would have been similar to Batman using a completely different Batmobile in TDK without any explanation. It doesn't affect the character, its a minor change, but it leaves you saying "Wtf, why change that?"

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I personally think the slight change in Cyclops powers is nothing really.

His powers being a tiny bit different doesn't effect his actual character, his personality. Does it? He led the kids out of the tunnels, he was the leader. That's still Scott Summers.

 

[TheZink]

I personally think the slight change in Cyclops powers is nothing really.

His powers being a tiny bit different doesn't effect his actual character, his personality. Does it? He led the kids out of the tunnels, he was the leader. That's still Scott Summers.

Sure. But why change the powers at all?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I dunno. I don't think it has really changed his powers too much either. It still blasts out of the school roof, not melt through it you know what I mean? It's still a energy beam.

And you gotta think, he hasn't got his visor, surely the beam coming straight out his eyes is different.

 

[TheZink]

I dunno. I don't think it has really changed his powers too much either. It still blasts out of the school roof, not melt through it you know what I mean? It's still a energy beam.

While its not much, its still there. The scorch marks, the tree on fire etc.

And it did more of a "cutting" than "blasting" in this it seemed. There was a nice defined straight line. Without his visor I'd imagine absolute chaos and just big holes everywhere.

And you gotta think, he hasn't got his visor, surely the beam coming straight out his eyes is different.

Didn't seem any different in X1 when he knocked the roof off from the Train Station.


Again, the change itself doesn't mean much to me, but the fact that it was made AFTER the X1 X2 and X3 movies does. If Scott had the same abilities in those movies then fine, cool, whatever. It follows the continuity of the movie universe.

 

[Nathan]

I personally think the slight change in Cyclops powers is nothing really.

His powers being a tiny bit different doesn't effect his actual character, his personality. Does it? He led the kids out of the tunnels, he was the leader. That's still Scott Summers.

Just because he leads the kids out because he's listening to a voice in his head, doesn't exactly make him a "leader". I'm not trying to make the character look bad, but he wasn't a born leader as you'd make him out to be, because of that minor scene.

 

[MrWayne]

i think we are spending too much time on this Cyclops thing.. surely there are more important nit picks we can pick apart t:

 

[TheZink]

i think we are spending too much time on this Cyclops thing.. surely there are more important nit picks we can pick apart t:

I think most have been covered. I'm still curious as to how Stryker goes from being arrested to still serving in the US Military with some authority.

How does Creed transform into the X1 version, or is it even the same person?

And just how in the world did Charles arrive at the right point in time?

I mean if we use the same argument that was used against X1, how did Charles know to monitor those mutants at that given time? Or had he been monitoring them for awhile and letting everything happen? Was he watching it like some TV program and just waiting for the right time to intervene? Does his telepathic ability have a range on it without cerebro? If so, then how did he direct Scott through the facility while flying a helicopter to pick up the prisoners?

 

[X-Maniac]

I think most have been covered. I'm still curious as to how Stryker goes from being arrested to still serving in the US Military with some authority.

Simple. Stryker's an evil, lying, scheming son-of-a-gun. It would be easy for him to blame a mutant for Munsen's death - the fatal stab wound could be blamed on a Wolverine claw or a Weapon XI blade, for instance.

How does Creed transform into the X1 version, or is it even the same person?

Easy. John Wraith explains Fred Dukes' weight gain by saying 'we all have our own coding mechanisms' - in other words mutations can progress, appearances can alter. Creed flees the island, becomes increasingly feral, lives out in the forests, eventually in wilds of Baffin Island, turns into some savage forest creature, perhaps even contributing to legends of the Bigfoot.

And just how in the world did Charles arrive at the right point in time?
I mean if we use the same argument that was used against X1, how did Charles know to monitor those mutants at that given time? Or had he been monitoring them for awhile and letting everything happen? Was he watching it like some TV program and just waiting for the right time to intervene? Does his telepathic ability have a range on it without cerebro? If so, then how did he direct Scott through the facility while flying a helicopter to pick up the prisoners?

He may have been alerted to Cyclops by the power display at the school, just as the attack on the White House alerted him to Nightcrawler. He could easily have traced Scott to the island. There's nothing to say all those mutants had been there for six years, so don't try claiming that one. Discovering that Stryker was linked to the government and that he was collecting mutants for experiments would mean it would be unwise for Xavier to go to the authorities, especially as he had no evidence outside of telepathy and his secret Cerebro machine, and he's not a physical fighter type who would storm the facility, so he bided his time and waited for the right moment.

See, it's easy if you have a brain!

 

[Nathan]

so he bided his time and waited for the right moment.

See, it's easy if you have a brain!

That's the only thing I have a problem with. He's the guy that can stop lots, and I mean lots of people in their tracks with his telepathy. He could have frozen everyone, rescued all of the mutants, and everyone would just wonder "Where the hell did the mutants go?".

I have an easier time accepting perfect movie timing and he just arrived.

 

[MrWayne]

hmmmm how long do you think Stryker was walking for to have his feet bleed like that? are we to assume he was wandering for days? then how long does Kaylas powers last for without being touched?

 

[Legion]

That's the only thing I have a problem with. He's the guy that can stop lots, and I mean lots of people in their tracks with his telepathy. He could have frozen everyone, rescued all of the mutants, and everyone would just wonder "Where the hell did the mutants go?".

I have an easier time accepting perfect movie timing and he just arrived.

Xavier is very powerful but he also has his limits. That's part of my problem with X2. When you see him freezing everyone in the museum or possibly kill every mutant or human on Earth it makes you wonder why he even needs the X-Men or why he puts their lives at risk when he has this kind of power.

 

[TheZink]

Simple. Stryker's an evil, lying, scheming son-of-a-gun. It would be easy for him to blame a mutant for Munsen's death - the fatal stab wound could be blamed on a Wolverine claw or a Weapon XI blade, for instance.

Sure I'll buy it. Would have been nice to see some kind of scene with it.

Hell, it would have been better the scene with military officers hadn't happened at all. He could have spoken to someone in military command over the phone or some tele-com.

"Sir, Logan just killed Munsen in a fit of rage, you MUST allow me to release Weapon XI"

Easy. John Wraith explains Fred Dukes' weight gain by saying 'we all have our own coding mechanisms' - in other words mutations can progress, appearances can alter. Creed flees the island, becomes increasingly feral, lives out in the forests, eventually in wilds of Baffin Island, turns into some savage forest creature, perhaps even contributing to legends of the Bigfoot.

So almost 100 years over Creed looks the exact same, then changes in a matter of 10-15years to what he looks like in X1?

He may have been alerted to Cyclops by the power display at the school, just as the attack on the White House alerted him to Nightcrawler. He could easily have traced Scott to the island. There's nothing to say all those mutants had been there for six years, so don't try claiming that one. Discovering that Stryker was linked to the government and that he was collecting mutants for experiments would mean it would be unwise for Xavier to go to the authorities, especially as he had no evidence outside of telepathy and his secret Cerebro machine, and he's not a physical fighter type who would storm the facility, so he bided his time and waited for the right moment.

I'll buy tracking Scott after the incident at the High School, hell its something I didn't think of. It would have been nice to hear some conversation between Xavier and Scott while he was leading him out.

Sure ALL of those mutants hadn't been there for 6 years, but you can't deny atleast some had been.

I just think it was a matter of well too convience timing and should have been thought out a little bit better. Just a few simple lines really could have helped it along.

Scott: "Who are you, why are you helping me?"
Xavier: "I heard about your incident at school. You're not alone Scott, I'm here to help."

See, it's easy if you have a brain!

Agreed, but I have a brain and I over think these way too much. It probably would have been better if i just turned my brain off for this movie.

 

[Kanon]

Xavier is very powerful but he also has his limits. That's part of my problem with X2. When you see him freezing everyone in the museum or possibly kill every mutant or human on Earth it makes you wonder why he even needs the X-Men or why he puts their lives at risk when he has this kind of power.

Well, it's actually the museum scene that seems out of character... Xavier has the power to control minds, but he is limited by his own morals...

The young mutant hostages are kind of a limit situation, he could have done somethign though

 

[C. Lee]

So almost 100 years over Creed looks the exact same, then changes in a matter of 10-15years to what he looks like in X1?

We don't know what experiments were done on him between the movies.

I just think it was a matter of well too convience timing and should have been thought out a little bit better. Just a few simple lines really could have helped it along.

Scott: "Who are you, why are you helping me?"
Xavier: "I heard about your incident at school. You're not alone Scott, I'm here to help."

It would have helped some people to understand more...but it would have lessened the big reveal of Stewart.

 

[X-Maniac]

That's the only thing I have a problem with. He's the guy that can stop lots, and I mean lots of people in their tracks with his telepathy. He could have frozen everyone, rescued all of the mutants, and everyone would just wonder "Where the hell did the mutants go?".

I have an easier time accepting perfect movie timing and he just arrived.

Well he only froze people once in the movies, when he was either inside the same room or just outside it. His power range was never established in the movies, and in the films the way pyschic powers are shown are often more like extra-sensory perception, an extended awareness.

For the purpose of the film, what happened was fine. The three people i know who saw it beyond this geekbubble were fine with what happened and thought it a nice touch.

Clearly, we never heard Xavier's voice in Scott's head much earlier, or had flashes of him in Cerebro, in order to make it a surprise when he turned up.

 

[Legion]

^
It would have been really simple to show Scott reading a brochure for Xavier's school when the teacher picks on him at class. Just a small clue to suggest Xavier had already made spotted him.

 

[X-Maniac]

^
It would have been really simple to show Scott reading a brochure for Xavier's school when the teacher picks on him at class. Just a small clue to suggest Xavier had already made spotted him.

It would also have been a very bad idea.

Scott had headaches, that's all we know. There's no suggestion he was checking out mutant school or that Xavier had at that point formally set up a school with promotional brochures.

Xavier rescues his First Class, his first ever students, at the end of the movie, so there is no school actually running at that point and no brochures. It makes sense that Xavier would only begin publicly advertising after the island facility was wrecked and Stryker left. He wouldn't be advertising a mutant facility while Stryker was actively capturing mutants.

You're not thinking this through.

 

[uchiha_itachi]

Simple. Stryker's an evil, lying, scheming son-of-a-gun. It would be easy for him to blame a mutant for Munsen's death - the fatal stab wound could be blamed on a Wolverine claw or a Weapon XI blade, for instance.



Easy. John Wraith explains Fred Dukes' weight gain by saying 'we all have our own coding mechanisms' - in other words mutations can progress, appearances can alter. Creed flees the island, becomes increasingly feral, lives out in the forests, eventually in wilds of Baffin Island, turns into some savage forest creature, perhaps even contributing to legends of the Bigfoot.




He may have been alerted to Cyclops by the power display at the school, just as the attack on the White House alerted him to Nightcrawler. He could easily have traced Scott to the island. There's nothing to say all those mutants had been there for six years, so don't try claiming that one. Discovering that Stryker was linked to the government and that he was collecting mutants for experiments would mean it would be unwise for Xavier to go to the authorities, especially as he had no evidence outside of telepathy and his secret Cerebro machine, and he's not a physical fighter type who would storm the facility, so he bided his time and waited for the right moment.

See, it's easy if you have a brain!

he says coping mechanisms not coding...thats why he holds the beer up saying hes an achoholic

 

[Legion]

It would also have been a very bad idea.

Scott had headaches, that's all we know. There's no suggestion he was checking out mutant school or that Xavier had at that point formally set up a school with promotional brochures.

Xavier rescues his First Class, his first ever students, at the end of the movie, so there is no school actually running at that point and no brochures. It makes sense that Xavier would only begin publicly advertising after the island facility was wrecked and Stryker left. He wouldn't be advertising a mutant facility while Stryker was actively capturing mutants.

You're not thinking this through.

I don't think Xavier ever did any "public advertising". It seemed all of the students were ones that he selected and persuaded to join. Maybe not a "formal brochure" but a letter or invitation for a personal meeting.

It wouldn't need to be like "Hello mutant, come join our mutant school." Xavier somehow got lots of kids to join his school, not just the ones he rescued from Stryker, alot were probably like Bobby Drake. His parents had no idea,their son was a mutant or what kind of school he was joining.

I also never imagined the Xavier school being the same establishment it was in the films we saw when the original X-men joined. It was probably only a small group of students.

Btw Xavier had probably tried to help Jason Stryker before his father had him frozen....not after. So he was seeing students. Jason's disappearance is probably what drew his attention to Stryker's facility on 3 mile island. You're the one not thinking things through.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Sure ALL of those mutants hadn't been there for 6 years, but you can't deny atleast some had been.

Actually, most likely none of those mutants had been there for 6 years.

There is no indication that Stryker is actually involved in mutant experimentation at the time of Team X. In fact, the Team X mission is to find the source of adamantium that is what spearheads Stryker's experiments.

It would take time for Stryker to actually find the raw source of adamantium, to figure out how to get it in it's pure, raw, liquid state, figure out what he wanted to do with it, set up his facilities for the experimentation, and then round up the mutants for the experimentations.

It's actually LEAST likely that even one of those mutants (outside of Jason Stryker) was there for 6 years.

 

[BMM]

It would also have been a very bad idea.

Scott had headaches, that's all we know. There's no suggestion he was checking out mutant school or that Xavier had at that point formally set up a school with promotional brochures.

Xavier rescues his First Class, his first ever students, at the end of the movie, so there is no school actually running at that point and no brochures. It makes sense that Xavier would only begin publicly advertising after the island facility was wrecked and Stryker left. He wouldn't be advertising a mutant facility while Stryker was actively capturing mutants.

You're not thinking this through.

I think that’s debatable as, according to movie continuity, Jason has already murdered his mother a year after having returned from Xavier’s School. Also, unless Jean Grey looks exceptionally young for her age in comparison to Cyclops, Xavier has already established the School, as noted by the brochures Mr. and Mrs. Grey are shown holding at the beginning of The Last Stand.