Question about magic in the DCU.

[TheCorpulent1]

Whoa, when did Tony ever replicate the properties of Thor's energy? If you're talking about that time during the King Thor stuff, Thor gave Tony an energy source to be integrated into mortal technology, and Tony just stuck it in his armor. Harnessing something magical that's specifically made to be harnessed by tech is kind of iffy on proving science and magic are universally similar.

Tarene's meant to be a cosmic messiah. Her purpose as the Designate was to raise all sentient beings in the universe to the next stage of enlightenment or something. So, really, I guess the question is, do you believe Jesus is magic-based or science-based? Basically a similar deal with Tarene.

Also, one of the reasons I hate the Scarlet Witch retcon is because it strengthens the bond between magic and science. Before Disassembled, she was literally just a mutant with probability-altering powers who happened to also study magic under Agatha Harkness and others. Then Disassembled changed it into some sort of mutant chaos magic, which made no sense whatsoever to me.

The others, with the ability to teleport through demonic dimensions, don't bother me. A dimension is a dimension is a dimension; they can be accessed via science or magic.

 

[Aristotle]

Besides, don't knock the people who believe in magick, our ancestors believed in it and they've gotten us this far.

1) That's not a very stellar endorsement. 2) "Irrationality" is not a pejorative. I believe that irrationality is just as important as rationality.

 

[BrianWilly]

Whoa, when did Tony ever replicate the properties of Thor's energy? If you're talking about that time during the King Thor stuff, Thor gave Tony an energy source to be integrated into mortal technology, and Tony just stuck it in his armor. Harnessing something magical that's specifically made to be harnessed by tech is kind of iffy on proving science and magic are universally similar.

Thor's exact words to Thialfi was that he should take the fragment of jewel, "enchanted with the magic of Asgard," to Tony Stark so "that he might replicate it for communities the world over." Unless Thor was just being ignorant about his own powers and that wouldn't have actually worked -- which seems unlikely, given the rest of what Thor had done during that run -- he fully intended for Stark to replicate the effects of a magical enchantment. And Tony says, "This armor is powered by the same enchantment that gives your hammer its strength." Enough that we're even talking about magic that is specifically designed to interact with technology -- already a pretty damning cross -- or that someone with a scientific background could actually study and utilize an entirely mystical enchantment, but all this is on top of the fact that he's meant to replicate an enchantment with technology? Powering tech with magic? Replicating magic with tech? That's, like, precisely what it means for magic to be veering close to science, and vice versa.

Tarene's meant to be a cosmic messiah. Her purpose as the Designate was to raise all sentient beings in the universe to the next stage of enlightenment or something. So, really, I guess the question is, do you believe Jesus is magic-based or science-based? Basically a similar deal with Tarene.

But see, in the DCU, someone like Jesus is very overtly not science-based. It's never been quite so politically-incorrect as to literally state that Jesus is magic or anything, but it's a pretty significant lack of ambiguity; you'd never hear someone in DC say, "It doesn't matter if [noun] is science-based or magic-based."

Also, one of the reasons I hate the Scarlet Witch retcon is because it strengthens the bond between magic and science. Before Disassembled, she was literally just a mutant with probability-altering powers who happened to also study magic under Agatha Harkness and others. Then Disassembled changed it into some sort of mutant chaos magic, which made no sense whatsoever to me.

Don't you mean changed it to not chaos magic, 'cause obviously chaos magic doesn't exist duh?

...wait...

...BENDIS

.

The others, with the ability to teleport through demonic dimensions, don't bother me. A dimension is a dimension is a dimension; they can be accessed via science or magic.

Well the point is not to bother you, the point is that the connection exists. You yourself even say that a dimension is a dimension, meaning that labels like scientific and magical are just that in this instance: meaningless labels. Hell, a perspective like "they can be accessed via science or magic" is the exact sort of interpretation that a universe with strong divides between the two abstractions wouldn't use. Again, you'd never hear someone in DC say "Let's take a Boom Tube to Faerie," or "This ancient incantation provides unholy passage...to Qward." I mean sure, a dimension need not be blatantly scientific or magical, but if it's got demons from hell, it's probably not meant to keep us guessing. Using a mutant power to get to one place or another is one thing, but the fact that your biological nature is intrinsically tied to an innately mystical plane of existence? That's not even subtext anymore. It's flat out text. And, man, we haven't even talked about Marvel's Darkforce yet.

 

[The Question]

you'd never hear someone in DC say, "It doesn't matter if [noun] is science-based or magic-based."

That's mostly because the DCU mystics are often bogged down in the ritual and religiosity of their craft. You will sometimes see more obscure magicians communing with the spirits of modern technology, or scientists accessing mystical realms via their science. In fact, I distinctly remember a a scene in Young Justice where Mxyzptlk was summoned by technopagans invoking the holy "ctrl alt delete."

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, DC has actually had plenty of that. An interesting recent example would be Gerber's new Dr. Fate tale in Countdown to Mystery. And of course, there's always Abra Kadabra, the 64th-century tech guy who's so advanced, it looks like magic but isn't. (On the other hand, he later made a deal with Neron to be an actual magician, so that might negate the whole thing.)

 

[BrianWilly]

How is the new Dr. Fate involved in tech?

Kadabra's actually a good example of what I'm talking about. It may look like magic, sure...but the final word is that it isn't. There's no ambiguity, it's science. The whole fact that he's actually using science is a significant factor of the guy's origin.

You will sometimes see more obscure magicians communing with the spirits of modern technology, or scientists accessing mystical realms via their science.

Off the top of my head I can remember very few instances of this.

Mxyzptlk is a valid example, though. For the longest time I had never gotten any impression that he was anything but scientific, but then Rucka comes and says that he's actually using spells and is affected by the Spectre's tirade against magic, and...*shrug*

 

[The Question]

Off the top of my head I can remember very few instances of this.

Well, I did say they were obscure. The first that springs to my mind is from the very first arc of Hellblazer, where an old buddy of Constantine's is shown using both magick and computer hacking skills to astral project into the internet for kicks.

 

[Aristotle]

How is the new Dr. Fate involved in tech?

Have you been reading it?

 

[BrianWilly]

Yes, and loving it.