Question About The Killing Joke...

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I read on another site that The Joker raped Barbara Gordon when he took pictures of her, when I was under the impression that all Joker did was strip Barbara down and snapped a few shots after he shot her. Did he rape her, or is it at least implied that he did?
 
It's left completely ambiguous. One may argue that photographing his daughter's rape would certainly have had a better chance of driving Gordon insane than simply stripping her down, the few pictures shown in the novel itself don't really give any evidence of rape. There's really no other mention or implication of rape. Joker could have simply stripped her while taking the pictures in order to show just how helpless Gordon's now-paralyzed daughter was.
 
It's left completely ambiguous. One may argue that photographing his daughter's rape would certainly have had a better chance of driving Gordon insane than simply stripping her down, the few pictures shown in the novel itself don't really give any evidence of rape. There's really no other mention or implication of rape. Joker could have simply stripped her while taking the pictures in order to show just how helpless Gordon's now-paralyzed daughter was.

Right, and that's the impression I was under... Seeing my daughter paralyzed, bleeding, and stripped against her will would drive me insane enough, and on top of that, I didn't see any implication of rape in the story.

Thanks to both of you.
 
There was no rape.

I never even considered the 'implication' of such, or whatever people cite as their cause for believing otherwise, until a couple of years ago at this site and I was incredulous to it.

We saw what the purpose in Joker taking those pics was; to further Gordon's descent into madness. There was nothing else behind it. It wasn't mentioned or hinted at in the story and the possibility of such hasn't been remotely touched in the 20 years of continuity since TKJ's publication. It's imaginary, misogynistic, bull****. There might as well be speculation that he violated Commissioner Gordon as well.
 
No rape and nothing ambiguous about it :woot:
 
There was no rape.

I never even considered the 'implication' of such, or whatever people cite as their cause for believing otherwise, until a couple of years ago at this site and I was incredulous to it.

We saw what the purpose in Joker taking those pics was; to further Gordon's descent into madness. There was nothing else behind it. It wasn't mentioned or hinted at in the story and the possibility of such hasn't been remotely touched in the 20 years of continuity since TKJ's publication. It's imaginary, misogynistic, bull****. There might as well be speculation that he violated Commissioner Gordon as well.

Not only that, but I've always had the picture that The Joker doesn't do what he does for sexual pleasure, he does it for madness and chaos... I can't really picture The Joker seeking sexual... Anything, really.
 
i see why people could imagine a rape occuring, i certainly wouldnt put it past the joker. but, also, thats clearly not something that DC comics is gonna print.
 
There was no rape. Sexual crimes are not the Joker's thing. And the scene in the hospital would have revealed if she had been sexually assaulted. It's not like they wouldn't have checked for it since they found her naked.
 
Right DC wouldn't allow two recognizable characters such as Joker raping Batgirl, they might for lesser known characters such as the Vertigo imprint.
 
She was not raped. Joker just took her clothes off and took pictures of her naked, crippled body.
 
Not only that, but I've always had the picture that The Joker doesn't do what he does for sexual pleasure, he does it for madness and chaos... I can't really picture The Joker seeking sexual... Anything, really.

I agree as far as TKJ is concerned, but I think the Joker would definitely be
suspect for rape. Many rapists are men who feel weak and they turn to rape to feel empowered and in control, not so much for sexual gratification. I can see the Joker raping a victim especially one like Barbara for just that reason. To exercise his power over Gordon and Batman.

Still I don't think that it was implied that he raped Babs during TKJ.
 
I agree as far as TKJ is concerned, but I think the Joker would definitely be
suspect for rape. Many rapists are men who feel weak and they turn to rape to feel empowered and in control, not so much for sexual gratification. I can see the Joker raping a victim especially one like Barbara for just that reason. To exercise his power over Gordon and Batman.

Still I don't think that it was implied that he raped Babs during TKJ.

I understand your point and agree with it to a certain extent, but I've always pegged the Joker as asexual or homosexual. I don't buy into him raping Gordon's daughter, it just doesn't seem like his style.
 
He didn't rape Barbara...he is The Joker not Dr. Light for goodness sakes.
 
He violated her, that much is clear, and that makes "Did he actually do it" irrelevant. He took one of the most precious things in her life away from her, and he did it in a very cruel manner. If there's not supposed to be a "rape" angle, why would he take off all her clothes? Why did she have to be naked? Alan Moore didn't jus throw that in her, he did so very deliberately.

You can't possibly say that he didn't rape her. The information simply isn't there to make that statement. Nor can you say that "sexual crimes" are not the Joker's thing and use that as a reason why a rape didn't occur. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power. And there is a very, very clear metaphorical "rape" scenario going on with what happens to Barbara. The Joker's actions make that very obvious.
 
I understand your point and agree with it to a certain extent, but I've always pegged the Joker as asexual or homosexual. I don't buy into him raping Gordon's daughter, it just doesn't seem like his style.

Hmm Gay? You think he raped Jason Todd during A Death in the Family? I've heard that rumor as well.
 
Maybe it's left open for interpretation on purpose?

There. Now everybody wins
 
Hmm Gay? You think he raped Jason Todd during A Death in the Family? I've heard that rumor as well.

:dry:

At what point could he have raped Jason? After he beat him senseless with the crowbar, he locked him in the warehouse and blew him up.
 
It is, metaphorically if not actually, a rape (though I suspect if it had been an actual physical rape, neither Batman nor Gordon would have been able to play by the books). It's actually interesting that the book came in for a lot of criticism for the way it objectifies Barbara yet this is one of Alan Moore's recurring themes, the ways in which women are constantly objectified by culture and society and their brutal hierarchies of power.

I've loved The Killing Joke for 20 years now, and I think there are two elements, apart from the perfection of the joke itself, that elevate it to genius. One is the way Jeannie dies in the memory section: electrocuted by a baby bottle warmer she's testing. That's just so completely absurd. It's like (of course) the punch line of a very cruel joke. The other is what happens to Barbara, because it has to be horrifying, in order for Gordon's decision to play by the books, and Batman's decision to renew his offer of help to the Joker, to be as heroic as they are. Or as insane? If this had just been a standard kidnapping plot where she's tied up in a basement somewhere, it would probably just be a good suspense thriller.

But like many comic book manifestations of the Joker, this one is fairly asexual, even in the memory sequence, where Jeannie's insistence that he's good in the sack might seem more like wishful thinking in reconstructing the memory. (I have elsewhere argued that Harley Quinn was invented for the same reason Aunt Harriet was, in response to a gay scare: after Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, which did sexualize the Joker, someone must have decided that if he was to be sexualized, however, nastily, it had to be heterosexually.)

So, in short, no: Barbara is not physically raped. But she and her father are emotionally violated by being forced into situations of extreme vulnerability where any element of choice is removed.
 
:dry:

At what point could he have raped Jason? After he beat him senseless with the crowbar, he locked him in the warehouse and blew him up.

Some people say that Jason's green Robin undies were on backwards in a scene where Batman was holding his dead body.

I'm not sure when it'd supposed to have taken place though.
 
I understand your point and agree with it to a certain extent, but I've always pegged the Joker as asexual or homosexual. I don't buy into him raping Gordon's daughter, it just doesn't seem like his style.

i could see the joker being asexual in the way that he doesnt do it for traditional pleasure. but, im pretty sure the joker would do anything if he personally found it funny and it hurt someone else. i can see him finding a joke in rape, therefore he would rape the person. but not for the traditional sexual kicks.
 
While it wasn't rape, it would still be considered sexual assault/battery in the courts. FWIW.
 

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