Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

[KevanG]

As for the TOAA, the FF showed us that it was Jack 'The King' Kirby so .

 

[Arach Knight]

And Mephisto basically has every defining characteristic of the Prince of Lies. Mephisto is a living embodiment of human evil who tempts mortals and corrupts their souls and rules over the demonic legions as the King of Hell and sworn enemy of Heaven. If it looks like the Devil, walks like the Devil, and sounds like the Devil, it's probably the Devil.

A Class Two Demon or Hell-lord, Mephisto rules a fiery nether realm that he refers to as Hell or Hades, though it is neither the Biblical Hell nor Pluto's Olympian Hades

Mephisto delights in impersonating the Biblical Satan.

https://marvel.com/universe/Mephisto

Following the Demogorge's massive battle with the Elder Gods, the remaining massive primeval energy concentration eventually gave rise to the second class of demons, shaped by the unconscious desire of their earliest human worshipers. Capitalizing on the eventual human belief in a single lord of evil, Satan (from the Hebrew word of adversary), each demon claimed to be that being and named their realms Hell. These Hell-lords included Marduk Kurios (most commonly known as Satan), Bamphomet, Mephisto, Satannish and others (including, allegedly, Murray). Other Hell-lords came from differing origins, such as those cast down from Heaven, including Asmodeus, Beelzeboul, Lucifer, Olivier and allegedly Stoker

https://marvel.com/universe/Hell-lords

So again, there is no being in the Marvel Universe that is actually THE Devil.

 

[Arach Knight]

Also, the One Above All existing does not stop other gods from existing in the Marvel Universe, nor does he have any organized worship of him.

What does worship have to do with the role of The One Above All? The point being made is that The One Above All is not only the supreme being of the Marvel Multiverse, but the creator of the entirety of the Marvel Multiverse. His worship is irrelevant to his deity. Secondly, the case being discussed is God, capital "G", not simply any being of power known as a god. Thor is a god, Odin is a god, yet neither of them even stands a remote chance against The Living Tribunal, whom is more or less God's will expressed as a being. The Living Tribunal is subordinate to The One Above All. I am not really sure what you are attempting to argue or rebut. These are the facts of the Marvel universe. You wish to argue them, then write to Marvel. I am merely relaying the canon as written.

 

[Human Torch]

That list seems suspect to an extent.One that jumped out was Jim Wilson-gay.I know he died of AIDS,but he had a girlfriend.I don't recall hearing he was Bi.(But then in all honesty I hated David's run,so I didn't read much of it.)

 

[Dasher10]

That list seems suspect to an extent.One that jumped out was Jim Wilson-gay.I know he died of AIDS,but he had a girlfriend.I don't recall hearing he was Bi.(But then in all honesty I hated David's run,so I didn't read much of it.)

It wasn't outright stated due to editorial interference but it was heavily implied that he was in the closet and got AIDS from another man. And I'm surprised you mentioned not liking Peter David on Hulk, that was one of the better runs.

 

[Gr0oT]

What does worship have to do with the role of The One Above All? The point being made is that The One Above All is not only the supreme being of the Marvel Multiverse, but the creator of the entirety of the Marvel Multiverse. His worship is irrelevant to his deity. Secondly, the case being discussed is God, capital "G", not simply any being of power known as a god. Thor is a god, Odin is a god, yet neither of them even stands a remote chance against The Living Tribunal, whom is more or less God's will expressed as a being. The Living Tribunal is subordinate to The One Above All. I am not really sure what you are attempting to argue or rebut. These are the facts of the Marvel universe. You wish to argue them, then write to Marvel. I am merely relaying the canon as written.

You wouldn't be trying to equate The One Above All as the Abrahamic god, are you?

 

[Loki882]

Wow, when did a thread about race/gender in Marvel movies turn into a debate about religion/who is the devil?

 

[The Question]

A Class Two Demon or Hell-lord, Mephisto rules a fiery nether realm that he refers to as Hell or Hades, though it is neither the Biblical Hell nor Pluto's Olympian Hades

Mephisto delights in impersonating the Biblical Satan.

https://marvel.com/universe/Mephisto

Following the Demogorge's massive battle with the Elder Gods, the remaining massive primeval energy concentration eventually gave rise to the second class of demons, shaped by the unconscious desire of their earliest human worshipers. Capitalizing on the eventual human belief in a single lord of evil, Satan (from the Hebrew word of adversary), each demon claimed to be that being and named their realms Hell. These Hell-lords included Marduk Kurios (most commonly known as Satan), Bamphomet, Mephisto, Satannish and others (including, allegedly, Murray). Other Hell-lords came from differing origins, such as those cast down from Heaven, including Asmodeus, Beelzeboul, Lucifer, Olivier and allegedly Stoker

https://marvel.com/universe/Hell-lords

So again, there is no being in the Marvel Universe that is actually THE Devil.

That's a distinction without a difference. Mephisto has nearly all of the qualities of The Devil, and while there are other Hell Lords, he is consistently portrayed as the most powerful of them all. With that in mind, what exactly is more accurate about saying that he impersonates The Devil than simply saying that he's the Marvel Universe's version of The Devil?

It kind of reminds me of a quote from the Futurama video game:

"You found me out. I'm not really a god. I'm just an ordinary eternal omniscient super-intelligent being."

 

[Dasher10]

Wow, when did a thread about race/gender in Marvel movies turn into a debate about religion/who is the devil?

Let's end this debate right here and now. Loki, Dormammu, Mephisto and Shuma Gorath don't worship themselves but evil spirits exist. This thread is about how to diversify the Marvel U and yes, religion (or lack thereof) is important and should not be ignored. The fact is, that not everyone in the comics is a white, straight, American, cisgendered non-practicing Protestant male.

One of my main complaints is that Black Widow isn't Russian enough. My other big complaint is that War Machine wasn't in the first Avengers but that seems to have been rectified.

 

[The Batman]

I'd like to see a Nick Fury film...that seems more likely to happen than Black Panther at this point.

 

[The Endless]

I'd like Monica Rambeau to be the movie verse Captain Marvel. A woman and she's black. Two birds with one stone. Make her a lesbian too. DIVERSITY!

Plus she's a more interesting character than Carol Danvers.

 

[3dman27]

to answerDasher10
yes he was revealed to be on a military mission at the time of the chitari invasion

 

[Dasher10]

to answerDasher10
yes he was revealed to be on a military mission at the time of the chitari invasion

Only because fans complained about it.

 

[Gr0oT]

Fact remains that they can't have every character they create in the Avengers.
I rather War Machine been excluded from the Avengers as he was than to have Whedon force himself to squeeze him when already they are balancing a huge cast of characters.

Same goes for Falcon in AoU, people might complain if he doesn't make an appearance but that movie is already loaded and it's a fine line between a success like the Avengers and a clustermug like X3.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Fact remains that they can't have every character they create in the Avengers.
I rather War Machine been excluded from the Avengers as he was than to have Whedon force himself to squeeze him when already they are balancing a huge cast of characters.

Same goes for Falcon in AoU, people might complain if he doesn't make an appearance but that movie is already loaded and it's a fine line between a success like the Avengers and a clustermug like X3.

We'll probably see Falcon and War Machine in Avengers 3 because the team that they will have set up by the end of Age of Ultron (Cap, Stark, Thor, Hulk, Barton, Romanoff, Wanda, Pietro and Vision) isn't going to be enough to defeat Thanos (if indeed he's the big bad in Avengers 3, which he probably will be), especially if Thanos gets all of the Infinity Gems, making him near invincible. Cap, Hulk, Thor, Wanda, Pietro and Vision all have superhuman abilities, but still Cap and Quicksilver have very limited superhuman abilities. Cap's abilities come via the Super Soldier Serum and QS has super speed.

The Avengers team we see at the end of Age of Ultron fighting against Ultron won't stand a chance against Thanos. They are going to need more help to defeat Thanos.

We may not see either in Avengers 2 (although there are rumors that War Machine is in this one), it's likely we'll see both in Avengers 3. However, like Stark and Barton, both are ordinary humans that have suits and/or special weapons that give them special abilities. Natasha is a human that kicks major ass. This is where Steven Strange and Carol Danvers come in.

It's a bit naive to think that the Avengers team we see square off against Ultron will be the only heroes to face off against Thanos in the next one.

 

[Arach Knight]

That's a distinction without a difference. Mephisto has nearly all of the qualities of The Devil, and while there are other Hell Lords, he is consistently portrayed as the most powerful of them all. With that in mind, what exactly is more accurate about saying that he impersonates The Devil than simply saying that he's the Marvel Universe's version of The Devil?

It kind of reminds me of a quote from the Futurama video game:

"You found me out. I'm not really a god. I'm just an ordinary eternal omniscient super-intelligent being."

I look at it this way: The One Above All is unequivocally a benevolent and omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being responsible for creating the entirety of the Marvel Multiverse and beyond. This is analogous to the concept of "One True God." In most monotheistic systems, while a multitude of deities may exist, none is more supreme than the chief deity. For Christians, this is Elohim (aka Jehovah, Ywh etc). For the Fon people of Dahmoney, this would be Nana Buluku. Though the beings are different, the idea is the same.

Similar in concept is the idea of an eternal adversary, great in power, but not quite as powerful as the one supreme creator. This adversary exceeds all other evil beings in power. In the Marvel universe, there is no such nemesis for The One Above All. And as it stands, Mephisto is far from being the most powerful demon in the Marvel unvierse. Mephisto is only a Class Two demon according to the old Marvel handbooks.

Meanwhile, Shuma Gorath is a Class Three, nigh-omnipotent demon capable of destroying realities. Mephisto can't compete. So if one were going on sheer power and evilness, Shuma would fulfill that role. As it stands, Mephisto, like MOST Hell-Lords simply claims to be Satan, without actually being a comparable being. It is all just a ruse. Pretending to be something doesn't mean you get the title, no matter how adept the portrayal.

 

[EssayM]

Wait, I thought this was the Race/Gender thread. How did we get to religion?

 

[The Question]

Similar in concept is the idea of an eternal adversary, great in power, but not quite as powerful as the one supreme creator. This adversary exceeds all other evil beings in power. In the Marvel universe, there is no such nemesis for The One Above All. And as it stands, Mephisto is far from being the most powerful demon in the Marvel unvierse. Mephisto is only a Class Two demon according to the old Marvel handbooks.

That's just straight up not true. In the early Hebrew tradition, Satan wasn't especially powerful. All he did was tempt and manipulate humans through illusions and clever choice of words. He wasn't even God's adversary. He was humanity's adversary, but he was a loyal servant of God. His function in the heavenly hierarchy was effectively that of a prosecuting attorney. His job was to root out the sinful and morally weak and mark them for punishment, as well as making free will possible by giving humans the choice to be something besides good.

The Muslim counterpart of The Devil, known as Iblis or Shaitan, is similarly weak. While he is a very powerful Djinni, he's not the most powerful there is, simply the most powerful and leader of the Djinn who rebelled against God's command for all Angels and Djinn to worship and be subservient to humans and acknowledge them as the stewards of the Earth. Like Satan, his MO boils down to messing with people's heads and maybe making them see stuff. And while his nature as humanity's adversary is much more malevolent, seeing humans as inherently wretched and inferior beings instead of Satan's philosophy of "tough love," he's still not God's enemy, as he still loves and worships God. It's just that they're relationship is complicated and kind of ****ed up.

Even within Christianity, what you describe isn't accurate across the board. In many Christian traditions, The Devil is said to be incredibly weak, a wretched and powerless fallen angel who has only words and parlor tricks at his disposal to turn men against God and can be defeated in card games and bets by wily opponents.

The fact is, The Devil can be a lot of things, and Mephisto is defined entirely by traditional characteristics of the Prince of Darkness. He is the Marvel Universe's version of Satan. Any statements to the contrary are just lawyer speak Stan Lee used to weasel his way around the puritanical guidelines of the Comics Code Authority.

Meanwhile, Shuma Gorath is a Class Three, nigh-omnipotent demon capable of destroying realities. Mephisto can't compete. So if one were going on sheer power and evilness, Shuma would fulfill that role. As it stands, Mephisto, like MOST Hell-Lords simply claims to be Satan, without actually being a comparable being. It is all just a ruse. Pretending to be something doesn't mean you get the title, no matter how adept the portrayal.

1: I wouldn't say Shuma Gorath is any more evil than a Hurricane, but that's just me.

2: The fact that there's other beings out there as strong or stronger doesn't negate his claim to the title of Satan. It does't in any other fantasy or speculative fiction. In the TV series Supernatural, it is flat out stated that Lucifer is less powerful than the Grim Reaper and the Arch-Angel Micheal, and it's implied that he is at least rivaled in strength by the King of the Great Old Ones, but he still counts as Lucifer. Over in the DC Universe, The Devil is a major and very active character over on the Vertigo side of things, and on multiple occasions encounters beings as strong or stronger than he is, including Lovecraft-inspired monstrosities not unlike Shumah-Gorath and the DCU incarnation of Death (which seems to be a pattern). Within a fictional universe involving magic and monsters, the relative strength of that narrative's version of Satan depends entire on that story's cosmology and what they're using supernatural beings to try and say.

 

[Arach Knight]

You are among one of the most eloquent people on this forum Q, and a pleasure to speak to, but I am going to derail your commentary and simply make mention of the fact that I made no mention of Hebrew tradition. I use particular faith systems to demonstrate actual examples, but I was speaking generally of monotheistic systems and the reoccurring theme of a Supreme deity and a Primary adversary. Mentioning Christians or the Fon was not mean to elicit further commentary on specific faiths.

As it stands, although Satan began as a tempter of people, Satan is now chiefly known in later Abrahamic faith systems as being the adversary of God, as depicted in the end times and Armageddon. But this discussion is neither here nor there as we are discussing comicbook fantasy and the fact that the Marvel universe has a well defined lack of a specific "Satan" despite there clearly being a benevolent Supreme deity analogous to "God." That doesn't make The One Above All the Abrahamic God, nor does it make any Marvel demon "Satan" (at least in more than name only or as a proper analog).

As I said before, there is one God in the Marvel universe that is above all other deities, but there is no Satan or Satan analog. The evidence is in canon and canon is rarely a matter for debate. What is, is.

A character playing on human fears and conceptions alongside DOZENS of other equally or more powerful figures is not conducive of any logical inference that one of those numbers would rightfully be considered an analog for Satan. Even if I wanted to entertain such a facile notion, what would give Mephisto greater credence as being the Marvel analog of Satan when there are dozens of other Hell Lords that make the same claim and each refer to their own realm as "Hell"? Because Mephisto appears more often in stories? Because he was featured in a movie?

Logically speaking, Mephisto is no more Satan than Lucifer (a Marvel demon) or Marduk Kurios (a Marvel demon), as they all make similar claims to being "The Devil", perform similar acts of temptation and bartering and each calls their realm Hell. Each looks similar in some respect, to the idea of 'Satan"; Marduk has three heads and wings, like the dragon of end times. Lucifer bears horns (an erroneous and modern depiction), whilst Mephisto is all red and wears a cape (the most erroneous and least Biblically accurate depiction, also from modern times).

As for Stan Lee, he based Mephisto on Mephistopheles, a Germanic folklore demon from the Faust legend. Within the Faust legend, Mephistopheles is not Satan himself, but rather a demon that is at the behest of Satan. So even from a source material standpoint, Mephisto wouldn't be the Marvel analog of "The Devil"

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

You make some good points by the way.


Oh and i did not say it was progress,i just posted the info.
By the way do think it's progress?

See here again.

http://comicsalliance.com/mighty-avengers-al-ewing-tom-brevoort-marvel-race/

I wouldn't classify it as progress, I would call it evidence. We are in the age of diversity and we should enjoy it instead of begging for more and more. I'm not saying you are doing the begging, or calling anyone out imparticular, so please don't take it personally.

I'm saying that as a society, we should enjoy what we have and stop looking for reasons to be upset. If we would have had this level of diversity in the 1950s, or hell, even the 1970s, the world would have had a collective aneurysm.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that the fact that we even have these debates is what bothers me. We have progressed further than most fans are willing to admit. I don't think these "issues" should even exist anymore.

I'm born and raised in "the south," and I still live here. I know that racism in general is still an issue in small pockets of the country. I see them. But I also see that my area, Charleston, SC is one of the more diverse cities in the country. Diversity and acceptance are now in the majority, and racism is the "little brother."

We all should band together and enjoy what we have. Bask in this time and be please with how far we have come as a society. We shouldn't have these debates. We shouldn't look for characters to change from white to black or male to female. Create new characters, expand our comic realms naturally. Feature previously overlooked characters, like Agent Carter and Falcon.

Bottom line, sit back and enjoy the ride. We ARE in that time. Don't let the few racial issues outshine the amazing diversity and acceptance we have in the world.

I am glad you said not 50/50. We are off to a good start. I agree with everything you said here.

Thank you sir (or ma'am). I'm just tired of racism and sexism taking center-stage in our world when we should be past it. And it many instances, we are.

 

[Dasher10]

I wouldn't classify it as progress, I would call it evidence. We are in the age of diversity and we should enjoy it instead of begging for more and more. I'm not saying you are doing the begging, or calling anyone out imparticular, so please don't take it personally.

I'm saying that as a society, we should enjoy what we have and stop looking for reasons to be upset. If we would have had this level of diversity in the 1950s, or hell, even the 1970s, the world would have had a collective aneurysm.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that the fact that we even have these debates is what bothers me. We have progressed further than most fans are willing to admit. I don't think these "issues" should even exist anymore.

I'm born and raised in "the south," and I still live here. I know that racism in general is still an issue in small pockets of the country. I see them. But I also see that my area, Charleston, SC is one of the more diverse cities in the country. Diversity and acceptance are now in the majority, and racism is the "little brother."

We all should band together and enjoy what we have. Bask in this time and be please with how far we have come as a society. We shouldn't have these debates. We shouldn't look for characters to change from white to black or male to female. Create new characters, expand our comic realms naturally. Feature previously overlooked characters, like Agent Carter and Falcon.

Bottom line, sit back and enjoy the ride. We ARE in that time. Don't let the few racial issues outshine the amazing diversity and acceptance we have in the world.



Thank you sir (or ma'am). I'm just tired of racism and sexism taking center-stage in our world when we should be past it. And it many instances, we are.

Okay, but a lot of these characters aren't being developed. There are some but properties like Black Panther and Captain Marvel didn't get greenlit as fast as Doctor Strange and Ant-Man did and while I like Doctor Strange, Ant-Man isn't the most important character in the Marvel U and has nowhere near as big of a fanbase, nor a long running solo series unless you count Eric O'Grady who was often despised by fans.

I mean, I'm happy that Luke Cage and Jewel are getting his own shows but the fact remains that characters who demand a higher budget to do right but aren't considered to be the norm by 1960s standards are getting the shaft, even if they're well established characters. Once a solo film like Black Panther, War Machine, Captain Marvel, Black Widow, She-Hulk or Blade gets announced, then topics like these will stop popping up.

 

[Loki882]

I wouldn't classify it as progress, I would call it evidence. We are in the age of diversity and we should enjoy it instead of begging for more and more. I'm not saying you are doing the begging, or calling anyone out imparticular, so please don't take it personally.

I'm saying that as a society, we should enjoy what we have and stop looking for reasons to be upset. If we would have had this level of diversity in the 1950s, or hell, even the 1970s, the world would have had a collective aneurysm.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that the fact that we even have these debates is what bothers me. We have progressed further than most fans are willing to admit. I don't think these "issues" should even exist anymore.

I'm born and raised in "the south," and I still live here. I know that racism in general is still an issue in small pockets of the country. I see them. But I also see that my area, Charleston, SC is one of the more diverse cities in the country. Diversity and acceptance are now in the majority, and racism is the "little brother."

We all should band together and enjoy what we have. Bask in this time and be please with how far we have come as a society. We shouldn't have these debates. We shouldn't look for characters to change from white to black or male to female. Create new characters, expand our comic realms naturally. Feature previously overlooked characters, like Agent Carter and Falcon.

Bottom line, sit back and enjoy the ride. We ARE in that time. Don't let the few racial issues outshine the amazing diversity and acceptance we have in the world.



Thank you sir (or ma'am). I'm just tired of racism and sexism taking center-stage in our world when we should be past it. And it many instances, we are.

Except that that's not how it works. If we just except the status quo and never push for more, then that leads to stagnation and nothing ever changes or improves. This is especially true when the arguments for why we don't have more are wholly unconvincing. For example, why we don't have more female-led superhero movies, the arguments are more like excuses and they fall flat when subjected to even the most basic analysis/scrutiny. I see no reason to just "enjoy what we've got" in this case. Quite simply, what we've got is not good enough, not even close.

 

[Arach Knight]

We are in the age of diversity and we should enjoy it instead of begging for more and more.

I'm saying that as a society, we should enjoy what we have and stop looking for reasons to be upset. If we would have had this level of diversity in the 1950s, or hell, even the 1970s, the world would have had a collective aneurysm.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that the fact that we even have these debates is what bothers me. We have progressed further than most fans are willing to admit. I don't think these "issues" should even exist anymore.

I realize that you mean well, but you are speaking from a position of privilege. There are no shortages of characters in film, television, literature or comicbooks, that will represent what you look like and with whom you identify ethnically speaking. Consequently, that makes it easy for you to say "we shouldn't talk about racism anymore", because institutional racism is not an issue you have to deal with or otherwise give thought to.

It is unfair to wish for others to remain silent about a legitimate grievance simply because it bothers you to discuss such an important matter. If this country were truly diverse, there wouldn't be such a disparity in minority representation in the media.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/oct/30/entertainment/la-et-mn-race-and-movies-20131030

If diversity were no longer an issue, then little Black children wouldn't face the threat of expulsion for refusing to cut their natural hair. If a White child has their hair let loose, it will drop down flat. Black hair on the other hand will poof outward. Is any consideration given to the natural state of a Black person's hair? No. Instead, a White standard is imposed and disparity breeds in how Black children are treated in schools, all because of the desire to wear one's hair naturally, just as the other children are allowed to do.

http://rt.com/usa/vandyke-school-hair-expulsion-401/


Just because there is progress does not mean that the ailment has been cured. It simply means that the patient is in recovery. And this patient, the American nation, has been in recovery for 149 years, ever since Blacks were freed from slavery.

And the time is even less than that if referring to women, because women have only had moderately comparable rights since 1920, when women were allowed to hold office and vote. So women haven't even had as much opportunity to fight for their own representation. To this day, income disparity between men and women is approximately 20% difference for the same exact work. You may find such measures to be "good enough", but for the minorities and women who still suffer from this disparity, there is still much work to be done.

Might Avengers however, is a good start in the world of comics.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Fact remains that they can't have every character they create in the Avengers.
I rather War Machine been excluded from the Avengers as he was than to have Whedon force himself to squeeze him when already they are balancing a huge cast of characters.

He's balancing an even bigger cast for AoU

Same goes for Falcon in AoU,people might complain if he doesn't make an appearance but that movie is already loaded and it's a fine line between a success like the Avengers and a clustermug like X3.

Then Feigi and Whedon should have made the Maximoff kids PoC: Native American, Mestizo, South Asian or anything to diversify the cast that we do end up with

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

Okay, but a lot of these characters aren't being developed. There are some but properties like Black Panther and Captain Marvel didn't get greenlit as fast as Doctor Strange and Ant-Man did and while I like Doctor Strange, Ant-Man isn't the most important character in the Marvel U and has nowhere near as big of a fanbase, nor a long running solo series unless you count Eric O'Grady who was often despised by fans.

I mean, I'm happy that Luke Cage and Jewel are getting his own shows but the fact remains that characters who demand a higher budget to do right but aren't considered to be the norm by 1960s standards are getting the shaft, even if they're well established characters. Once a solo film like Black Panther, War Machine, Captain Marvel, Black Widow, She-Hulk or Blade gets announced, then topics like these will stop popping up.

I really doubt that Feige and Marvel are saying they aren't developing Black Panther because he's black or Captain Marvel because she's a woman. The Black Panther story would be very similar to the Thor story and the Captain Marvel story can be seen as too complex to introduce without first introducing the Kree in GOTG.

As for the others you mentioned, War Machine has been a main character in two films and doesn't have the fan base or interesting storyline to warrant a solo film yet, Black Widow has had a central role in three films now with arguably more promotion than any other character in the MCU (sans Iron Man), She Hulk wouldn't happen before another Hulk movie and Blade had three solo films, the first of which was the first big studio Marvel superhero film of our era (the only Marvel ones before it were the horrible CA films, Howard the Duck, Fantastic Four in 1994 and the 1989 Punisher).

Except that that's not how it works. If we just except the status quo and never push for more, then that leads to stagnation and nothing ever changes or improves. This is especially true when the arguments for why we don't have more are wholly unconvincing. For example, why we don't have more female-led superhero movies, the arguments are more like excuses and they fall flat when subjected to even the most basic analysis/scrutiny. I see no reason to just "enjoy what we've got" in this case. Quite simply, what we've got is not good enough, not even close.

I'm not saying status quo. My biggest point was towards fans to stop demanding that some characters be changed. Improvement in quality is always in demand. But demanding that Marvel, or any studio make specific movies or change a characters race or gender just for the Hell of it is ridiculous to me.

And don' forget Black Panther did have a TV series. It was short-lived, but they made an attempt. It just didn't work. Same goes with Blade: House of Chthon

We haven't seen a female lead yet, but we will. Black Widow wasn't the lead in her films, but she played a very important role and has gotten a load of screen time in three movies. Jessica Jones will be getting her own Netflix mini-series soon.

Then I look at it from the business standpoint. If they would have done a Ms. Marvel film, She-Hulk film, Scarlet Witch film, even a Black Widow film in Phase one, the MCU wouldn't be what it is. Those stories aren't the most exciting and they wouldn't pull in the GA like they could make Iron Man, Captain America or Thor do. They are now at a time where they can potentially make one, because they have the GA at their finger tips, as well as us CBM fans.

And another side note regarding women in these films, keep in mind Pepper Potts was shown as CEO of Stark Industries, had a big part in killing Obadiah Stane and killed Aldrich Killian. She saved Iron Man's butt on multiple occasions. She wasn't exactly a damsel in distress. Then throw in Peggy Carter who was a badass in CATFA, had her own One Shot where she not only completed a mission that was expected to require three agents, was shown fighting the gender battle (and succeeding) at a time when it was at its worst AND is getting her own network TV series.

Maybe what we have released on BluRay, in theaters and on TV right now isn't good enough. But what they have in the pipeline is a BIG step towards what people have been wanting. Sure, the biggest films will be the "white guys," but those are the characters they have rights to that the GA was somewhat familiar with for the last 50 years. Soon, we'll have a mini-series with a female lead, a mini-series with a black male lead, a TV series with a female lead and likely a Black Panther film.

It's not like the ONLY characters shown to be accepted or "badasses" are white males. Agent Carter, Black Widow, Kurse, Falcon, Nick Fury, Pepper Potts, War Machine, Heimdall, Gamora... All examples in the MCU of women or "POC" with key roles and some of the most impressive moments in the MCU thus far.

I realize that you mean well, but you are speaking from a position of privilege. There are no shortages of characters in film, television, literature or comicbooks, that will represent what you look like and with whom you identify ethnically speaking. Consequently, that makes it easy for you to say "we shouldn't talk about racism anymore", because institutional racism is not an issue you have to deal with or otherwise give thought to.

It is unfair to wish for others to remain silent about a legitimate grievance simply because it bothers you to discuss such an important matter. If this country were truly diverse, there wouldn't be such a disparity in minority representation in the media.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/oct/30/entertainment/la-et-mn-race-and-movies-20131030

If diversity were no longer an issue, then little Black children wouldn't face the threat of expulsion for refusing to cut their natural hair. If a White child has their hair let loose, it will drop down flat. Black hair on the other hand will poof outward. Is any consideration given to the natural state of a Black person's hair? No. Instead, a White standard is imposed and disparity breeds in how Black children are treated in schools, all because of the desire to wear one's hair naturally, just as the other children are allowed to do.

http://rt.com/usa/vandyke-school-hair-expulsion-401/


Just because there is progress does not mean that the ailment has been cured. It simply means that the patient is in recovery. And this patient, the American nation, has been in recovery for 149 years, ever since Blacks were freed from slavery.

And the time is even less than that if referring to women, because women have only had moderately comparable rights since 1920, when women were allowed to hold office and vote. So women haven't even had as much opportunity to fight for their own representation. To this day, income disparity between men and women is approximately 20% difference for the same exact work. You may find such measures to be "good enough", but for the minorities and women who still suffer from this disparity, there is still much work to be done.

Might Avengers however, is a good start in the world of comics.

First of all, why do you assume I'm from a "position of privilege?" Frankly I'm offended by that. The ONLY thing you know for sure about me is that I have access to the internet and means to post here. Don't assume you know anything about me more than that. The only thing I will tell you about me in this regard is I grew up in the South. Look up North Charleston, SC sometime. That's where I live. It's not exactly in a "position of privilege." And I went to a high school with race wars and riots. So I've seen it first hand.

But I digress. I'll move on with my argument as professionally as I can.

I didn't want to get into a big race thing, but I will hit a few small points on what you mention (I originally wasn't going to, but why not?).

Diversity and discrimination are still problems in small pockets. I never said they are completely gone. They never will be. But in the grand scheme of this country, they're NOTHING like they used to be. We are at a point in society where, if you work hard and pay your dues, opportunities are equal by race and gender. I know many women that make more than men of the same job, and many minorities that make more than their white counterparts as well. It's individually based. (I'll throw this in there... I am a male, I make less than a female with the exact same title and position with me, who has less experience and minimal skills required for the position. I trained HER on how to do most of her job, and I still make less. So there are isolated incidents supporting both sides.) Race issues will always exist in some places. There are places where some whites will always hate minorities, and there are places where blacks will always look at white people as "the man." It's inevitable.

The point I was trying to get across is that we need to stop looking back and look ahead to what we have been working towards. We as a society have put forth a TON of effort to equalize things, and we've done a lot better than some people are willing to give credit for. We have rules in place at colleges that force a certain percentage of students to be minorities and a certain percentage to be female. However, on the same token we still have HBCUs. See this quote below from The Washington Post:

“Although I appreciate all races and have friends of all kinds at home, I definitely think that Howard was created for black students and the integrity of the majority black institution should remain that way,” said Courtland Lackey, a junior at Howard. “I don’t see why other races would attend when it was created for the benefit and growth of our black race and culture.”

Link

When we still have things like BET and the Confederate Flag so prominent, we continue to display the separation based on race that we just don't need anymore. We subconsciously support a separation on race and discrimination by having these symbols out there. There's an organization put in place for the sole purpose of advancing "colored people," the NAACP. There are still places where the KKK is active. Both are a disgrace in my eyes (for different reasons, but both racially based).

Back on the topic of looking back instead of ahead, we have many young black people complaining about slavery and separation, none of which were ever enslaved of forced to be separated by race. I personally know a number of black parents who tell their children to take advantage of situations because of what the "white man" did, because "the man" will always try to keep you down, just because they're black. I know many people who teach their kids to hate minorities because being white is "just better." Both are equally disgraceful and disrespectful, not only to the people, but to this nation and the ethical qualities we try to instill in our society. As long as we still have these lessons being taught and these attitudes in our world, we will never make progress. That's the point I've been trying to get across.


As for the movies, TV shows and specifically Marvel movies, the forum we are in, I think they have made great strides, they've done a lot to show diversity on race and gender lines, and will continue to do more and more. They have two secret projects slated for Phase 3. For all we know, they are Black Panther and Ms. Marvel. Or they could be Ghost Rider and Blade. We don't know. So yes, I still think we should enjoy the progress that has been made, enjoy where we are and watch as it continues to grow.


That ended up being a LOT longer than I expected. I know we aren't going to agree, and that's fine. That's what makes the world go round. I've said my peace and I'm going to stop here. (I didn't go back to proofread, so please disregard any misspellings, typos, grammar errors or nonsensical ramblings.)