Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

[DrCosmic]

Did someone say Mighty Avengers? Ah, I love that book. Monica Rambeau so should have been the flagship female.

I'd like Monica Rambeau to be the movie verse Captain Marvel.

I gotta admit, I'd like that a heckuva lot. She'd be pretty fracking awesome with her diverse powerset (which makes a little more sense to get from an explosion), longstanding Avengers history (not just Bendis-era stuff), cool and more cohesive supporting cast, menacing archnemesis (Blackout) and her own genre/motif/color scheme/etc that doesn't echo one of the big 4.

I hate "twofer" diversity though. It reeks of tokenism. Give me Spectrum AND Black Panther AND Black Widow, y'know?

We are at a point in society where, if you work hard and pay your dues, opportunities are equal by race and gender.

This is simply untrue. It speaks to a great deal of privilege, as you are free to continue to be ignorant on this issue, and dismiss those without opportunities as people who simply didn't try hard enough, even though most successful people wouldn't last a day as the working poor. You can continue to call the numerous studies on these issues "isolated incidents" and cling to personal anecdotes as though they are equally widespread experiences. You have the privilege of ignoring your privilege. No one can stop you. -shrug-

As for the topic, some people apparently think women and other ethnicities are just as important as white males, as in should be the stars and main characters, not just key supporting players for white males. If the MCU can't deliver that, someone else will. I suspect these people also think that serving current demographics are more important than reflecting 1960s demographics. Wouldn't you agree?

(EDIT: I understand what you're saying. MCU deserves props for going in the right direction, but the people who enjoy the MCU more because it handles diversity better than most, naturally want more, just like they want more of everything else they love about the MCU, and there's really no reason to ever say "enough diversity" is there?)

Also, just so you know, the Black Panther TV series sold quite well for it's budget, Marvel simply decided not to do anymore. Another indication of privilege, where you assume that those who aren't successful didn't do a awesome job as opposed to simply fell to the systemic side effects of racism.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Did someone say Mighty Avengers? Ah, I love that book. Monica Rambeau so should have been the flagship female.



I gotta admit, I'd like that a heckuva lot. She'd be pretty fracking awesome with her diverse powerset (which makes a little more sense to get from an explosion), longstanding Avengers history (not just Bendis-era stuff), cool and more cohesive supporting cast, menacing archnemesis (Blackout) and her own genre/motif/color scheme/etc that doesn't echo one of the big 4.

I hate "twofer" diversity though. It reeks of tokenism. Give me Spectrum AND Black Panther AND Black Widow, y'know?



This is simply untrue. It speaks to a great deal of privilege, as you are free to continue to be ignorant on this issue, and dismiss those without opportunities as people who simply didn't try hard enough, even though most successful people wouldn't last a day as the working poor. You can continue to call the numerous studies on these issues "isolated incidents" and cling to personal anecdotes as though they are equally widespread experiences. You have the privilege of ignoring your privilege. No one can stop you. -shrug-

As for the topic, some people apparently think women and other ethnicities are just as important as white males, as in should be the stars and main characters, not just key supporting players for white males. If the MCU can't deliver that, someone else will. I suspect these people also think that serving current demographics are more important than reflecting 1960s demographics. Wouldn't you agree?

(EDIT: I understand what you're saying. MCU deserves props for going in the right direction, but the people who enjoy the MCU more because it handles diversity better than most, naturally want more, just like they want more of everything else they love about the MCU, and there's really no reason to ever say "enough diversity" is there?)

Also, just so you know, the Black Panther TV series sold quite well for it's budget, Marvel simply decided not to do anymore. Another indication of privilege, where you assume that those who aren't successful didn't do a awesome job as opposed to simply fell to the systemic side effects of racism.

Agree entirely

 

[Chance Jackson]

And don't forget Black Panther did have a TV series. It was short-lived, but they made an attempt. It just didn't work. Same goes with Blade: House of Chthon

I can't speak on black panther but (our esteemed DrCosmic has a rebuttal) from what I had heard The Blade Show had some of Spike TV's highest ratings but it was too expensive to justify making more of.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Although we have yet to see a minority led Superhero film from the MCU such as Black Panther, there is a trend going in in each MCU film. Except for maybe the Incredible Hulk, all of the other MCU films have a black actor/actress in a significant role. Since Iron Man 2, each MCU film has had at least one Black actor as a major cast member.

Iron Man 2- Don Cheadle, Samuel L. Jackson
Thor- Idris Elba, Jackson (post credits)
Captain America: The First Avenger- Derek Luke, Jackson (post credits)
Avengers- Jackson
Iron Man 3- Cheadle
Thor: The Dark World- Elba, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje
Captain America: The Winter Soldier- Anthony Mackie, Jackson
Guardians of the Galaxy- Zoe Saldana, Djimon Hounsou
Avengers Age of Ultron- Jackson, Cheadle (maybe)

Plus the future films:

Cap 3- Mackie
Thor 3- Elba
Avengers 3- Jackson, Cheadle (maybe), Mackie (maybe)

However, whether the trend continues with Ant Man or Doctor Strange remains to be seen. I would hope the trend continues. Bill Foster in Ant Man would be a continuation of that trend as would casting a black woman in the role of Clea or even having Brother Voodoo as a significant role player in Doctor Strange would be good. Casting a black man as one of Strange's baddies would also continue that trend. I do hope Dr. Strange and Ant Man continue the trend. Another option of course would be to throw an existing character into one of those films.

 

[Dasher10]

Did someone say Mighty Avengers? Ah, I love that book. Monica Rambeau so should have been the flagship female.

Not to get too off-topic here but I honestly like Captain Marvel (Carol), Storm, Black Widow and Invisible Woman better as the flagship females. That said, I wouldn't mind Marvel introducing Monica somewhere down the line along with the other female characters they have the rights to like Elektra, Diamondback, She-Hulk, Abigail Brand, Misty Knight, Bride of Nine Spiders, Coleen Wing, Rachel Cole and Cybermancer.

And keep in mind that there's also room for female villains like Hela, Enchantress, Madame Masque, Yelena Belova, Black Lotus, Sin, Umar, Viper (and most of the Serpent Society for that matter), Firebrand, Mercy and Typhoid. So far, all of the villains in the MCU outside of AoS have been male.

I get that most of the A-list females were taken by Fox but there is no reason why Marvel Studios can't take lesser known characters and make them every bit as cool.


And with regards to Fox, they should give Storm a bigger role after DOFP with the past timeline. Here's a chance to show a younger Storm and introduce her backstory, including her rivalry with the Shadow King as well as her thieving skills, martial arts training, etc. She bested Cyclops one on one while she was depowered and Fox for whatever reason doesn't give her enough screen time to develop.

 

[DrCosmic]

Storm would have been great too, she has the second richest backstory in the X-Men (which is saying something when the only one deeper is Wolverine) and she naturally branches out into Wakanda and Avengers and etc. She also was the de facto Flagship female, and they'd put her up whenever they needed a recognizable woman before that, but they decided Carol should get the push for whatever reason.

Invisible Woman is a lot more symbiotic with her team. They'd have to break out some of the FF villains, or more likely remix some FF concepts to make new villains, as well as give her a supporting cast other than her family if they wanted to do an Invisible Woman story that isn't just an FF story with an IW focus. That wouldn't really be true to who IW is, she's a family woman through and through. She's certainly more recognizable than everyone but Storm, but you'd almost have to remake her from scratch to make her a solo heroine. Doable, but no mean feat. I would have preferred that to Carol as well, the same way Wolverine and sometimes Storm are broken out from the X-Men, break out Invisible Woman from the FF.

But even if they had, they wouldn't have the rights to those two now to be a solo female hero in the MCU.

Carol, I truly do like, but sometimes it's just because she's the flagship female. Her history is convoluted and largely uninteresting. Her powerset is typical (and redundant in the MCU) and her uniform is derivative. Her enemies are shared with other more famous heroes. The vast majority of what makes her popular has occurred in the Bendis era, and while I can vouch for DeConnick's run, the rest is just okay to me. This is not to say I don't like her, but it takes a lot more work, imho, to make that happen than it would with the other three ladies in this post.

Rambeau doesn't have those problems. There's a reason she was leader of the Avengers multiple times iirc. She integrates well with them, visually, powerwise, story-wise. She's just a great character for them. She offers, to nod to the topic, diversity of more than just race, without trying to revamp her she also offers diversity of villains, powers, colors (uniform), genre and especially mindset, the same kind of diversity all the white male characters bring. Mighty Avengers, Nextwave, all great stuff with her leading the charge, heck, I liked Marvel Divas, though I may be biased in some way on that one.

Now because Carol is the flagship female in comics, I don't think they can skip over her in any way in the MCU, but it might be interesting and wise to make Captain Marvel a sort of buddy movie with Rambeau and Danvers.

 

[Matt312]

I found a interesting blog about Doctor Strange.
http://section244.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-mystic-eyes-of-doctor-strange.html

Movie Ticket Sales Rise 4% Worldwide on Soaring China Growth (2)
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...es-4-percent-worldwide-on-soaring-china-sales

"Catering to Chinese viewers a hurdle for Hollywood"
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2013-12/10/content_17163230.htm
The Painted Veil, Shanghai and Snow Flower and the Secret Fan - all films featuring prominent Hollywood stars - flopped in the Chinese market.
Chinese audiences may be shifting away from Western films in general, with domestic films enjoying a 144 percent increase to $1.11 billion in the first half of 2013.
One of 2012's biggest surprises was the runaway hit comedy Lost in Thailand, a Chinese film that earned $195 million. By contrast, international films saw a drop of 21.3 percent to $675 million this year.
All of this has Hollywood scrambling to find the right mix. Transformers 4 will star Chinese actors Han Geng and Li Bingbing and feature scenes shot in China. Most innovatively, it has cast some roles in the movie from a television show aired in China.

DreamWorks vs. Disney: a Battle for China
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/dreamworks-vs-disney-a-battle-for-china-zXpv2_f0T46dG18~HMAG9w.html

http://www.deadline.com/2014/01/han-sanping-china-film-group-leaving/
So then why not make a Asian male lead for Marvel.

 

[EssayM]

Not fully on topic, but I recently got exposed to the awesomeness that is Donald Glover's stand-up, and I just love his reaction to the whole Spiderman thing (paraphrased):

ANONYMOUS INTERNET USER: So if we're making Spiderman black, why don't we just have Michael Cera play Shaft?

DONALD GLOVER: Uh...YES!? That would be amazing! Who wouldn't want to see that?!

 

[Chance Jackson]

Not fully on topic, but I recently got exposed to the awesomeness that is Donald Glover's stand-up, and I just love his reaction to the whole Spiderman thing (paraphrased):

ANONYMOUS INTERNET USER: So if we're making Spiderman black, why don't we just have Michael Cera play Shaft?

DONALD GLOVER: Uh...YES!? That would be amazing! Who wouldn't want to see that?!

Love Childish Gambino

 

[metaphysician]

Stupid question, but. . . Black Panther TV show? I'd never even heard of such a thing.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Stupid question, but. . . Black Panther TV show? I'd never even heard of such a thing.

I think it was animated.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Stupid question, but. . . Black Panther TV show? I'd never even heard of such a thing.

I think it was animated.

I watched the whole thing on you tube one saturday awhile ago, the animation style was rough

 

[Six]

If you think about it, Marvel have just greenlit 2 TV shows with females as leads, Agent Carter and Jessica Jones, they have 1 ensemble with a balance of male and female, they have Luke Cage who is African American, and you never know, they might make Danny Rand Asian, which would mean out of all those shows only 1 will be focused on a white guy.

But yes, Black Panther still needs a movie.

 

[Chance Jackson]

If you think about it, Marvel have just greenlit 2 TV shows with females as leads, Agent Carter and Jessica Jones, they have 1 ensemble with a balance of male and female, they have Luke Cage who is African American, and you never know, they might make Danny Rand Asian, which would mean out of all those shows only 1 will be focused on a white guy.

But yes, Black Panther still needs a movie.

Has Rand ever been anything other than a Blonde WASPy type? if they add diversity to his slice of the world I could see that coming via Shang Chi assuming marvel has the live action rights

 

[Loki882]

If you think about it, Marvel have just greenlit 2 TV shows with females as leads, Agent Carter and Jessica Jones, they have 1 ensemble with a balance of male and female, they have Luke Cage who is African American, and you never know, they might make Danny Rand Asian, which would mean out of all those shows only 1 will be focused on a white guy.

But yes, Black Panther still needs a movie.

Which is good. Unfortunately, it's counterbalanced by the fact that they have ZERO films with females or minorities as leads. And since MANY more people see the movies than watch the TV shows, one has more weight than the other.

 

[DA_Champion]

Marvel is moving in the right direction.

 

[Matt312]

This is one of the reason's why there are no asian male leads. It's one thing for Colbert Report satire. But Deadspin's white writers calling asian's "gooks" is just racist. I hope that not how most American's feel towards the asian community
Deadspin calls asians "Gooks"
http://deadspin.com/gooks-dont-get-redskins-joke-1553907157

 

[eon001]

I found a interesting blog about Doctor Strange.
http://section244.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-mystic-eyes-of-doctor-strange.html

Movie Ticket Sales Rise 4% Worldwide on Soaring China Growth (2)
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...es-4-percent-worldwide-on-soaring-china-sales

"Catering to Chinese viewers a hurdle for Hollywood"
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2013-12/10/content_17163230.htm
http://www.deadline.com/2014/01/han-sanping-china-film-group-leaving/
So then why not make a Asian male lead for Marvel.

Love this idea. I've always had a problem with Western heroes being the saviors of foreign lands in movies. Part of the reason why I disliked Tom Cruise's Last Samurai. The last samurai of Japan happens to be a Caucasian guy that learns the complexed art of Bushido in like 6 months?

Making Dr Strange Asian could make creative and business sense.

 

[MakeMinesMarvel]

I dont want just a Black Super Hero im fine with what we've got except Black Panther. I want Asian/Latin/Indian/Middle Eastern heroes. I want every race represented. Thanos is real and he's coming I dont just want all white heroes in the final battle. I want animal based heroes and heroes of different worlds besides Asgard. Like a Tigra for example

 

[Arach Knight]

This is simply untrue. It speaks to a great deal of privilege, as you are free to continue to be ignorant on this issue, and dismiss those without opportunities as people who simply didn't try hard enough, even though most successful people wouldn't last a day as the working poor. You can continue to call the numerous studies on these issues "isolated incidents" and cling to personal anecdotes as though they are equally widespread experiences. You have the privilege of ignoring your privilege. No one can stop you. -shrug-

You beautiful, beautiful human you.

 

[eon001]

I dont want just a Black Super Hero im fine with what we've got except Black Panther. I want Asian/Latin/Indian/Middle Eastern heroes. I want every race represented. Thanos is real and he's coming I dont just want all white heroes in the final battle. I want animal based heroes and heroes of different worlds besides Asgard. Like a Tigra for example

Totally agree. We get so caught up with the Black minority we forget there is a whole planet of other nationalities that aren't getting a fair shake.
China and the Latin market are turning into a huge box office areas so it makes good business sense to branch out also.

 

[Matt312]

Totally agree. We get so caught up with the Black minority we forget there is a whole planet of other nationalities that aren't getting a fair shake.
China and the Latin market are turning into a huge box office areas so it makes good business sense to branch out also.

I agree.

 

[Loki882]

Love this idea. I've always had a problem with Western heroes being the saviors of foreign lands in movies. Part of the reason why I disliked Tom Cruise's Last Samurai. The last samurai of Japan happens to be a Caucasian guy that learns the complexed art of Bushido in like 6 months?

Making Dr Strange Asian could make creative and business sense.

Except that Tom Cruise WASN'T the Last Samurai in that movie. He fought with them and wore the armor, but he wasn't a Samurai. Ken Watanabe's character was "The Last Samurai" and his death brought their age to an end. Or, if you look at it another way, the entire village were the last Samurai (since Samurai is both singular and plural) and them being wiped out in the final battle brought the Samurai age to an end.

 

[DrCosmic]

^That makes sense, but would you be surprised if that's news to me? I mean, some people call Bruce Willis' character "Die Hard."

 

[eon001]

Except that Tom Cruise WASN'T the Last Samurai in that movie. He fought with them and wore the armor, but he wasn't a Samurai. Ken Watanabe's character was "The Last Samurai" and his death brought their age to an end. Or, if you look at it another way, the entire village were the last Samurai (since Samurai is both singular and plural) and them being wiped out in the final battle brought the Samurai age to an end.

If that's true, then they don't do a good enough job getting that message across.

He completes the training, kills a bunch of ninjas, fights with the samurai, and ends up being the last survivor of the final battle, in a movie called "The Last Samurai".

I'll except that there may be a hidden/read between the lines message, but why does it have to be hidden?