Discussion in 'Misc. Comics Films' started by Picard Sisko, Dec 8, 2012.
I'm surprised that know one has questioned me on why Iron Man and DKR are so low.
Well I'll ask now. lol
Why are they so low?
From the perspective of a big Spider-Man fan.
7) Superman 2
9) Iron Man
10) The Crow
So yeah, from my perspective it's pretty much a disappointment overall in how Spidey has been portrayed on film.
You still have Spider-Man 2 at your #5 though, that's really high. What are your next 10 films or so on your list?
12) XM: FC
17) Batman Returns
My personal top ten:
1) The Avengers
2) The Amazing Spider-Man
3) The Dark Knight (Rises? Maybe, need to watch it again)
4) Spider-Man 2
5) Captain America: The First Avenger
6) X2: X-Men United
7) Scott Pilgrim
8) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
9) Batman (1989)
10) Watchman or V for Vendetta
Sorry, double post
I am a huge Spider-Man fan (he's my favorite superhero after Bats). However, I don't think we have yet seen a Spider-Man film that should be considered to be one of the greatest comic book films ever made. I thought Spider-Man 1 & 2 were alright films but half-assed Spider-Man adaptations. It lacked the essence, tone, and spirit of Spider-Man and also portrayed the characters inaccurate. Spider-Man 3 was just plain awful in every way. As for TASM, I give it props for it being a good movie and for being the first film I can consider to be an accurate Spider-Man film because it portrays the characters, tone, and spirit of the comics accurately but it's still by no means a great film or the Spider-Man film I'm waiting for. I'm still waiting for the Spider-Man film that I think deserves to be called great and will blow everyone's minds away. It would be a shame if a member of the "Big Three" superheroes (Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man) doesn't get that film in live-action when 2 out of the Big Three have already got an epic great movie like that at least once or twice. Heck, even Iron Man got his first Iron Man film (which was great) and is presumably getting another great film next year, and also was a major character in one of the best comic book movies ever made thus far (The Avengers).
TASM was the movie Spider-Man needed but not the movie he deserved. It was the movie Spider-Man needed in the sense that it truly brought the comics to life and portrayed the characters accurately. But it's not the movie he deserves in the sense that he deserves a great movie very epic-in-scale just like how Batman got the Nolan films (minus TDKR, which I didn't like) and like how Superman got the first two Donner films (which were just that at least for their time) and will presumably also get Man of Steel to be just as great and epic.
It's time to get serious, Sony. You have your first good, accurate, and up-to-date Spider-Man adaptation. You got your perfect cast. You got the right tone. You got the origin out of the way. You got the burden of rebooting a big franchise out of the way. Now it's time to get serious. Give us that great Spider-Man movie that deserves to be considered one of the greatest comic book movies ever made and in the top 10. I really hope TASM 2 will be just this.
I'd vote for Avengers, Watchmen, TDK and S-M 2 as well then.
May I ask why did you want to get the perspective of only Spider-Man fans?
Well, why not? These are the Spider-Man boards, and I just wanted to see how Spider-Man fans view CBMs in general.
Although the Raimi films never really depicted Spider-Man very accurately, I still think that Spider-Man 2 should be considered one of the greatest CBMs ever made. It depicts the life of a superhero, the struggles that come along with it, and the sacrifices that must be made in order to be one. Compared to movies that portray Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Fantastic 4, the X-Men, etc., this movie IMO shows us what superheroes would really be like if they existed.
SM1 is a great origin film, and it really set the standard for CBMs in general at the time. I still love watching it despite the film's aging, and think it stands as one of the best comic book adaptions of all time (based on my signature, you can see that lol)
I think with the new trilogy, they really have the opportunity to make one of the greatest CBMs. TASM set up the franchise so well IMO.
Imo, it would be logical to ask this in other areas of these boards though to see what those fans of view CBMs as well.
1. The Dark Knight
2. Spider-Man 2
3. V For Vendetta
4. Batman Begins
5. Batman (1989)
6. The Dark Knight Rises
7. Spider-Man (2002)
8. Superman: The Movie
9. A History of Violence
10. X-Men: First Class
11. The Avengers
12. Iron Man
13. Batman Returns
14. X2: X-Men United
16. Sin City
18. Road to Perdition
19. Superman II
21. Spider-Man 3
23. Blade II
24. The Amazing Spider-Man
25. Dark City
I just kept going until it showed up.
Agreed. I'd actually go further. I think Raimi nailed the tone and spirit of the Stan Lee comics and really the tone of the Spidey comics from the 1960s to the late 1980s, even if he didn't get the details of Peter Parker, Mary Jane et al. right. I agree that the details are off, but the overall tone is right. TASM does not feel like the comics. It feels like a studio film trying to pander to what they think are popular trends (i.e. seriousness of Dark Knight, reboot of Bond/Batman, high school angst of Twilight).
It is not really the comics, even if Garfield has Peter down better. Just my opinion.
While I agree with what you said about the Raimi films, I disagree a little bit about TASM. It does feel like Ultimate Spider-Man to me, with elements of the original Stan Lee/Steve Ditko era of Amazing Spider-Man.
I don't think Sony has any interest in doing anything truly great. They just want to keep punching the buttons that have made them 3 billion ww. A slight recallibration like TASM, but nothing transformative. We'll get some good films and nothing more. Nolan happened because Batman hit rock bottom and WB allowed him to excercise his talents as a result. The terrible SM3 was the biggest Spidey film to date financially, far from rock bottom. Never had Superman lows either which is why we have Nolan godfathering MoS.
Will Webb have the control over this that Nolan had? I doubt it myself. Sadly, it feels like Spidey needs to fail big in order be saved from mediocrity. And at that point he'd revert back to meddling Marvel Studios and it's cookie cutter ways. Basically he's stuck for the forseeable future. We may not get a trancendent Spider-Man film for twenty + years
The first two Spider-Man films were some of the greatest CBMs of their time. They aged, sure, but I still think they should be recognized for that. The Avengers will probably age greatly in 10 years (trust me, it will, like every other film that is not a classic) and I'm sure people will call it cheesy and such.
And honestly, how do you know Sony will never allow for a great Spider-Man film?
People are calling the Avengers cheesy now. Like Raimi's Spider-films, it embraced it. SM1 and SM2 were dated when they were released. New millenium films with 60's era sensibilties. Even Webb got caught up in the cheese a bit with TASM. I don't want a great "comic film", I want a film that goes beyond the frame and is great period.
I don't know and I hope I'm proved wrong in 2014. But I've got four films that make my point. The bottom line for them is money and if it ain't broke they have no real incentive to fix it.
I wouldn't say the Raimi films were dated when they were released. The Avengers was just as corny as TASM. "I'm bringing the party to you guys." "I don't see how that's a party." It has its funny moments, but it really is going to age a lot given enough time.
I think 2 out of 4 films are great, one is good, and the other is terrible. So really, "that's just like, your opinion, man." Overused quote, I know. But seriously, do you not think that Marvel/Disney are just trying to make a ton of cash, too? What is considered "great" is different from everyone's perspective.
Hey, I think the Avengers is more corny. The best character moments in TASM were better then the Avengers imo, the problem was there was nowhere near enough of them.
Raimi's films were a nod to the Lee/Ditko/Romita era. The melodrama was played up big time in performance, dialogue and direction. JJJ was straight out of a forties screwball comedy. They were fun and entertaining films, but far from great. My love for the character even makes me overrate SM2 I'll admit, although it still has the best action sequence of any film in the genre.
Sure they are, I'm not arguing that. I think Spidey would be worse off at MS because they'd more then likely move the character back in the Raimi direction, which is the last place I'd like him to be at this point in time. Been there, done that.
The test for true greatness is how a film ages, not so much in terms of special effects, but how it resonates with people years later. There is no way Raimi's films or the Avengers will stand the test of time like Nolan's films.
It is interesting to see what Spidey fans think of the Spidey films as well as other CBMs. Not every Spidey fan is happy with the films we've got.
I think the Nolan films aren't going to stand the test of time. Batman Begins aged just as much as the Raimi films in my eyes, and TDKR will definitely age as well, considering how flawed it was. The Dark Knight has already aged, too, over the past 4 years for me as well. I think that Ledger's performance will always be loved and appreciated, but the film itself is not a classic. Certain parts of the film will look pretty hokey, such as Commissioner Gordon's last speech, "Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight." Really, did they just pull words out of a hat? And I think people will look back and think that the whole Batman being a symbol thing went to far, especially since he's only been Batman for about a year in total.
EDIT: How could I not forget the Batman "throat cancer" voice? Ouch... Michael Keaton's Batman had an intimidating voice without having to go that far...
You have to admit, though, some do believe they've seen the best Spidey film already, lol.
But, I would say, though, we should ask this question for every fan of particular superheroes as well.
Side note: I typed out superherpes
A voice will make the films age? That's just nitpicking, but that won't age any kind of film.
TDK and TDKR will definitely go through the test of time, I guarantee it. As four years have passed and TDK is still the talk of the town with CBMs, people will be talking about TDKR in 2016.
I'll eat my own socks if this isn't true.
I definitely think that TASM is the best Spidey film to date (as I'm sure you've figured out by now), but if someone wants to make a better one in the future I'll happily accept their efforts. I'm always up for being impressed. I certainly don't think it's impossible for someone to do better than TASM, but the bar has been set high (imo).
I'll sort of agree with you on this one. I know you love TDKR (I myself was a fan, although I thought the film had a few flaws), but TDK was a media darling of CBM's, largely because of Heath Ledger. I think Nolan's trilogy on a whole will stand the test of time, but the ONE Bat-Nolan film that will truly stand out in 10-20 years will be TDK. The other two won't be forgotten, but Ledger's Joker had a cultural affect that I never quite saw with either of the other films. That's not to say that TDK is unquestionably the best (although many would argue it is), just that it had the biggest impact.
3. BB and TASM(can't separate these 2)
4. First Class
5. Spiderman 2