The Dark Knight Rises Ra's Al Ghul/More than just a man?

[KidHolland8]

Sorry if someone has already brought this up, I just didn't know where to look or ask,

Through out Bruce's training, Ra's keeps telling bruce to make himself more than just a man, to become an idea. Well, in the comics, Ra's is immortal, he dies and is thrown into the Lazarus Pit and is alive again, but in the nolan-verse, thats impossible, so what if "Ra's Al Ghul" is just an idea, the title of the leader of the group. In BB, "Ra's Al Ghul"(Watanabe) is killed by the falling ceiling, at Bruces party, "Ra's Al Ghul"(Neeson) says "but is Ra's Al Ghul immortal? his methods supernatual", "Ra's Al Ghul" is then killed in the train wreck. who's next in line?

Miranda Tate?
She has said she isn't Talia, maybe she isn't referred to as "Talia Al Ghul", maybe she is "Ra's Al Ghul". "Ra's Al Ghul" means "Demon's Head". Ra's Al Ghul has a specific meaning, Al Ghul is not suppose to be a last name. My theory is Tate is the new Ra's. and the footage of Neeson as Ra's is either nightmares or flashbacks of him and miranda or him and bane.



Just a theory. any input is good input

 

[batlovescatDC]

^ That needs to be in either the Ra's Al Ghul thread, the Bane thread, or the Miranda Tate thread.

 

[KidHolland8]

Beside the point, any thoughts?

 

[CJ]

I think you may be onto something there. I wouldn't be suprised if that's what happens in the movie.

 

[Uroboric Forms]

I've always suspected that Ra's was a title given to the leader of the LOS rather than a name in Nolan's universe. Mainly, what reason would Ra's have for using a decoy, not only with someone who he trusted and was training to be his successor, but also the entire LOS too?

 

[joem4077]

Watanabe's Ra's wasn't the real one. Ducard was always Ra's. As Bruce said, it was just a cheap trick to conceal his real identity.

Now whether or not Nolan's Ra's could in fact live forever is unknown. Maybe he could and just used many of the same looking Asian men with goofy facial hair to be "Ra's" while he was Ducard like we saw from Watanabe to the other guy, or maybe the name Ra's al Ghul is just a title that is passed down either from Ducard's ancestors or from a previously chosen man (non-family)

 

[Mako]

Or Maybe he was just a man named Ra's Al Ghul and the "Supernatural" line was just a nod to the fans???

 

[Rewstar]

I like to think that Ra's Al Ghul is a persona similar to that of the Dread Pirate Roberts

 

[AnneFan]

Watanabe's Ra's wasn't the real one. Ducard was always Ra's. As Bruce said, it was just a cheap trick to conceal his real identity.

Agreed. It's more about hiding who 'Ducard' was to Bruce. Talking about the great Ras Al Ghul in the third person, actually talking about himself and gauging reactions, etc. IMO the Nolanverse Ras is dead and not immortal.

Or Maybe he was just a man named Ra's Al Ghul and the "Supernatural" line was just a nod to the fans???

 

[Jaime45x]

I also see Ras Al Ghul as title and not only a name. Also if you think about it the League of Shadows it's an organization that has been running for centuries and are infiltrated in every level of our society. Just because Ducard/Ras is dead doesn't mean the whole organization dissapeared, there must be someone takes the ride of the organizations and that could be Talia. The only thing I don't understand from this organization it's their obsession with Gotham. I mean there must be more corrupt cities in the world they could target. If the rumors are true and in fact LOS it's behind the events of TDKR then it will be the third time they fail.

 

[AnneFan]

Just because Ducard/Ras is dead doesn't mean the whole organization dissapeared, there must be someone takes the ride of the organizations and that could be Talia.

Of course.

 

[Greens]

KidHolland, you don't have to create a thread for every piece of speculation.

 

[joker1524]

of course hes more than a man...hes zeus in the titans franchise

 

[AnneFan]

I get that the OP is going on the 'the demon's head' title, but if Talia is her name, what's her surname? I'm 100% assuming it's Al Ghul. Making her the daughter of Ras/'Ducard'. Calling herself Ras Al Ghul - her father's name, would be odd. It seems Talia is the leader of the LOS proper, and Bane was kicked out and leads his own gang.

 

[KidHolland8]

KidHolland, you don't have to create a thread for every piece of speculation.

well i did, so just go with it. not a big deal

 

[BestGirl]

I get that the OP is going on the 'the demon's head' title, but if Talia is her name, what's her surname? I'm 100% assuming it's Al Ghul. Making her the daughter of Ras/'Ducard'. Calling herself Ras Al Ghul - her father's name, would be odd. It seems Talia is the leader of the LOS proper, and Bane was kicked out and leads his own gang.

Why can't her surname be Ducard? Ra's could have been telling the truth and Henri Ducard was his real name prior to adopting the Ra's title.

 

[KidHolland8]

Why can't her surname be Ducard? Ra's could have been telling the truth and Henri Ducard was his real name prior to adopting the Ra's title.

Exactly!

 

[AnneFan]

Chances are high we'll hear something from Talia when she reveals herself.

 

[Victarion]

Maybe "Demon's Head" is meant as a nickname indicative of past schemes he's orchestrated within the League of Shadows? You know--devilishly clever schemes.

 

[He Rises]

I also see Ras Al Ghul as title and not only a name. Also if you think about it the League of Shadows it's an organization that has been running for centuries and are infiltrated in every level of our society. Just because Ducard/Ras is dead doesn't mean the whole organization dissapeared, there must be someone takes the ride of the organizations and that could be Talia. The only thing I don't understand from this organization it's their obsession with Gotham. I mean there must be more corrupt cities in the world they could target. If the rumors are true and in fact LOS it's behind the events of TDKR then it will be the third time they fail.

(The following is just a rant of mine about theories and such, disregard it if you want, it's pretty lengthy )
Yeah you bring up a good point about the League being obsessed with Gotham. The way I think about it is this:

According to Ducard, he said that his first attempt to destroy Gotham was via economics, trying to crash the city's financial system. However, Bruce's parents used their vast wealth to help the city, and later their deaths "galvanized the city into saving itself itself, and Gotham has limped on ever since." (Ducard) Years later, once Bruce has completed his training with the LOS, he learns of their second scheme to "cleanse" Gotham.

Ducard explains in a burning Wayne Manor (this may not be word for word): "Your city is so corrupt we have infiltrated EVERY level of its infrastructure...Now we are back to finish the job, and no misguided idealists will stand in our way. The return to harmony will be unstoppable this time..." After spending years infiltrating Gotham and planting agents within the city, they basically resort to chemical warfare in order to plunge the city into chaos and watch it tear itself apart. I can understand them wanting to finish what they started, because Gotham was probably at its lowest point in BB. But then we know what happened: Batman takes down Ducard and he dies; and the League's plan ultimately fails.

If the League wanted to make a third attempt at destroying Gotham, I would think they'd do it during the Joker's rampage and take advantage of the chaos he created. Unless of course they just werent ready then.

Now consider the setting of TDKR. Most of the movie takes place 8 years after TDK, and the city is finally experiencing some peace. JGL said this to Gordon in a recent TV spot: "When you cleaned up the streets, you cleaned 'em good...pretty soon we'll be chasing down overdue library books." Clearly, this conversation is taking place before Bane arrives in Gotham, but we can still assume that Gotham has perhaps finally become the peaceful utopia Bruce's father envisioned.


So if Gotham is doing great, why would the League want to come in and destroy the city? Unless of course Bane has his own personal vendetta against the city for some reason, after all he considers himself to be "Gotham's reckoning". His mercenaries dont seem very similar to the sword-weilding ninjas Ducard led into Gotham. But at the same time, you can see him using some of the same tactics the League has used in the past:

- Releasing prisoners to add to the chaos
- Targeting the city's financial system
- Isolating Gotham from the outside world

Anyways, this is just my personal rant, disregard it if you please. I'll see you all on July 20

 

[TCCB]

Sorry if someone has already brought this up, I just didn't know where to look or ask,

Through out Bruce's training, Ra's keeps telling bruce to make himself more than just a man, to become an idea. Well, in the comics, Ra's is immortal, he dies and is thrown into the Lazarus Pit and is alive again, but in the nolan-verse, thats impossible, so what if "Ra's Al Ghul" is just an idea, the title of the leader of the group. In BB, "Ra's Al Ghul"(Watanabe) is killed by the falling ceiling, at Bruces party, "Ra's Al Ghul"(Neeson) says "but is Ra's Al Ghul immortal? his methods supernatual", "Ra's Al Ghul" is then killed in the train wreck. who's next in line?

Miranda Tate?
She has said she isn't Talia, maybe she isn't referred to as "Talia Al Ghul", maybe she is "Ra's Al Ghul". "Ra's Al Ghul" means "Demon's Head". Ra's Al Ghul has a specific meaning, Al Ghul is not suppose to be a last name. My theory is Tate is the new Ra's. and the footage of Neeson as Ra's is either nightmares or flashbacks of him and miranda or him and bane.



Just a theory. any input is good input

Apology accepted. I came up with this very thought right after the Marion denial of "Talia Al Ghul" being in the movie. When everyone was saying "oh she's just lying to divert attention" I said well maybe she's not lying per se "talia" may not be in the film but maybe she's "ra's al ghul" since as you and I have already said is a TITLE so...we shall see. But I think for all intents and purposes she'll be Talia.

And Bane is forming his own League...maybe he'll call it the League of Reckoners or something

 

[Polaris23]

well i did, so just go with it. not a big deal

Atta boy!

 

[BestGirl]

(The following is just a rant of mine about theories and such, disregard it if you want, it's pretty lengthy )
Yeah you bring up a good point about the League being obsessed with Gotham. The way I think about it is this:

According to Ducard, he said that his first attempt to destroy Gotham was via economics, trying to crash the city's financial system. However, Bruce's parents used their vast wealth to help the city, and later their deaths "galvanized the city into saving itself itself, and Gotham has limped on ever since." (Ducard) Years later, once Bruce has completed his training with the LOS, he learns of their second scheme to "cleanse" Gotham.

Ducard explains in a burning Wayne Manor (this may not be word for word): "Your city is so corrupt we have infiltrated EVERY level of its infrastructure...Now we are back to finish the job, and no misguided idealists will stand in our way. The return to harmony will be unstoppable this time..." After spending years infiltrating Gotham and planting agents within the city, they basically resort to chemical warfare in order to plunge the city into chaos and watch it tear itself apart. I can understand them wanting to finish what they started, because Gotham was probably at its lowest point in BB. But then we know what happened: Batman takes down Ducard and he dies; and the League's plan ultimately fails.

If the League wanted to make a third attempt at destroying Gotham, I would think they'd do it during the Joker's rampage and take advantage of the chaos he created. Unless of course they just werent ready then.

Now consider the setting of TDKR. Most of the movie takes place 8 years after TDK, and the city is finally experiencing some peace. JGL said this to Gordon in a recent TV spot: "When you cleaned up the streets, you cleaned 'em good...pretty soon we'll be chasing down overdue library books." Clearly, this conversation is taking place before Bane arrives in Gotham, but we can still assume that Gotham has perhaps finally become the peaceful utopia Bruce's father envisioned.


So if Gotham is doing great, why would the League want to come in and destroy the city? Unless of course Bane has his own personal vendetta against the city for some reason, after all he considers himself to be "Gotham's reckoning". His mercenaries dont seem very similar to the sword-weilding ninjas Ducard led into Gotham. But at the same time, you can see him using some of the same tactics the League has used in the past:

- Releasing prisoners to add to the chaos
- Targeting the city's financial system
- Isolating Gotham from the outside world

Anyways, this is just my personal rant, disregard it if you please. I'll see you all on July 20

Could just be a pride thing. The League has tried to destroy Gotham twice and failed. I don't get the impression that they've ever not completed a mission before.

 

[godisawesome]

Maybe they see their actions as a form of deterrent: Utterly destroy one city and the rest of the world will fall in line. Maybe they think the city is still corrupt: the peace is held together by a lie, and it's suggested the politicians at the top may still be corrupt as all get-out with class tensions seething below the surface. And maybe they see Gotham as still not being good enough to survive.

I do think revenge and pride play a big part in this, though. Talia and her forces probably still sting from being defeated 9 years ago, but are wary of loosing to Batman again. Bane and his forces offer the chance for more overt destruction of the city; they build themselves up to annihilate Gotham in a very public manner but end up catalyzing Gotham's citizens into rising up against them and earning a true peace.

 

[TanneRain]

I was under the impression that Bane was expelled from the LoS at an earlier time for being too brutal or something along those lines. I remember it from an excerpt from The Complete Dark Knight Manual or something that covered all three films.