Robertson Finds Radical Muslims 'Satanic'

No, I was talking about the Bible-based belief "Christianity" in all of it's forms. I am against any kind of Christianity and think any form of it is harmful for humanity.
I just brought that up because some of his responses weren't really applicable to what I was talking about in that he would defend "Christianity" with examples from certain sects that wouldn't be a defense for others.
 
Well he realizes that the different groups are different. What you don't seremto realize is that the different groups are different. Christianity is not inherently evil. It has flaws. But it's not inherently evil. So you read the bible. That does not mean you uinderstand the bible. Which you obviously don't. You're doing what the evangelists do. Taking the bible, reading the parts you want without really looking at the history behind them, and using them to suit your own goals. That does not mean you understand the bible and christianity. Just means you know how to use it to prove yout point, which isn't necesairily valid.
 
religion confuses me in soo many ways. ok for those of you who watch the news to get your info on islam. here are some basics ( once again)

allah is arabic for god, it's not the name. so yes we believe in god. and jesus.
the reason that muslims were mad about the cartoon is not because they just got mad or are insane ( well i didn't really care because i'm just too mellow) but it's the fact that no one living ever saw what muhammad looked like or sounded like, so it wouldn't be fair to make him into something he isn't, even if it's on good terms. i'm not saying they should torch stuff down and become violent like they did.

i mean no one knew what jesus looked like but yet everyone pictures him looking the way that he does in cartoons and statues, and so on and so on.


IMO, i do not believe no see how on earth jesus could be god. if others want to believe i'm ok without i will not pass judgement nor have i ever passed it in anyway. do i believe my religion is the best? hell no, but it's what i believe and not to an extreme. first of all, jesus was born, no? he was born 0000 b.c. no? well what about before then? when the earth was already there, the creatures, everything. well how do you explain that? i mean i'm just asking anybody. jesus prayed, who could he have possibly been praying to? i mean many people worship jesus for dying for their sins. but to say he is god? that's not what i believe, nor could i ever believe it.
 
The Question said:
Well he realizes that the different groups are different. What you don't seremto realize is that the different groups are different. Christianity is not inherently evil. It has flaws. But it's not inherently evil. So you read the bible. That does not mean you uinderstand the bible. Which you obviously don't. You're doing what the evangelists do. Taking the bible, reading the parts you want without really looking at the history behind them, and using them to suit your own goals. That does not mean you understand the bible and christianity. Just means you know how to use it to prove yout point, which isn't necesairily valid.

wil has goals now?:confused:
 
soon...very soon, my plan to quadruple the birth rate in South America will reach fruition!!!! HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Question, your friend has some good points
Thank you. (from Question's friend)
Wilhelm-Scream said:
but obviously hasn't read the Bible all the way through
Ah, but I have. Every word (including all those bloody begats). See following, please.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Please read response to the irresponsible, ignorant, inconsistant, and illogical argument below. There's nothing irresponsible about speaking my mind about this here.
You are absolutely correct. For "irresponsible" I apologize.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I'm very knowledgeable about the Bible and the doctrines of most religions that claim to be "Christian". Most of the time it's ME telling Catholics what "transubstantiation" is and ME informing Christians that God sent bears to maul kids who made fun of a bald man in 2 Kings. Finally, what you're perceiving as inconsistancy and poor logic on my part is actually the illogic and inconsistency of Biblical Christianity as I'm exposing it.
OK. But even Christianity is selective when it comes to the Old Testament. Very, very few Christians (not even a majority of right wing fundamentalists) follow ALL the Old Testament precepts strictly and scrupulously. They eat pork. They don't advocate brutal, even fatal punishments. Jesus himself (when talking about divorce, for example) opposed some Old Testament precepts. Likewise St. Paul (the appropriateness of gentile conversion, his convoluted discussion of celibacy and marriage). Several of the Patriarchs had multiple wives: how many Christians still support that (or ever did!)? Be careful in giving the Old Testament too much weight when discussing what Christians believe. There are too many contradictions.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
Jesus' message was certainly not the "ultimate case" of anything like this. He condemns anyone who "loves God and says he hates his brother" and he time and again proclaims that we should "love one another." How is this adversarial? Again, you're misunderstanding me.
I'm sorry.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I'm talking Spiritually.
This was never clearly stated in your original argument.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Jesus said that he would rather people be "cold" (damned) or "hot" (zealous, surrendering their lives completely to the will of God) and that if you are "lukewarm" God will "spew you out of his mouth"
I've always felt that this was Jesus' activist way of criticizing the wishy-washy, but you are certainly entitled to your interpretation.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
The "all or nothing", "for me or against me" attitude to which I'm referring is based on the teaching "No man cometh to the Father but by me." meaning that if you don't believe in the deity of Jesus or the fact that our only salvation is through his sacrifice on the cross, there are no "do-overs" or grading curve, you are damned, and if you worship any other God but him, you are in direct defiance of the supposed Creator of the Universe.
Actually, the deity of Jesus was not fully accepted until more than a century after his death. And the "no do-over" concept was even later, a product of all-or-nothing Calvinism and its idea of an already pre-destined "elect". The idea of second chances ("do-overs", if you like) has been pretty much accepted by the vast majority of Christians since the late 18th century. Even many right-wing Fundamentalists would argue that their belief in the possibility of being "born again" means that damnation is never inevitable. And one Christian sect-- the Mormons-- even believes that even souls long dead can still be saved: the ultimate "do-over".

Wilhelm-Scream said:
"one way to salvation". What religion doesn't claim supremacy for itself? So what? This statement is as much (or more) anti-religion as anti-Christian, uh, absolutely. You just made a non-point.
Actually, a real point. If your statements are anti-Christian, that's one thing. But if they are more broadly anti-religious, be clear about that from the start,
Wilhelm-Scream said:
please.we're talking about the fact that if you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God,
But I don't. And the majority of Christians don't. The largest single Christian denomination-- Catholicism-- believes in interpreted Scripture, not Fundamentalism. Others-- Presbyterians, Congegationalists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Swedenborgians, all Orthodox sects, and even some Baptist groups-- are interpreters and analyzers, NOT Fundamentalists. Don't lump it all under "Christianity".
Wilhelm-Scream said:
then Pat Robertson was absolutely right. It is "Satanic" rebellion to believe in anything besides what Jesus taught.
You are absolutely right here. We're back to Pat Robertson and his ilk. Please remember: while Fundamentalists may make the most noise and have the most TV stations, they do NOT represent the majority of Christians around the world (not even the majority of Christians in the United States, although they'd like to think so). Please be clear as to exactly whom you are talking about: Pat Robertson, Fundamentalists, all Christians, or all people of religion.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
There are almost no Christians that actually follow all of God's commands in the Bible.
That is absolutely correct. I love bacon. I don't believe in death as a viable punishment for anything. I am against all forms of chattel slavery. All three of these (and more) were originally Old Testament precepts, and only the third would be dechoed in Christian teachings, but by St. Paul (an interpreter) not Jesus
.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Here I was referring to 2 things...first, the fact that Christians are commanded to "be not unequally yolked" in business, even marriage with non-Christians
Good point. Not a pleasant concept. Nor one followed by most Christians today.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
and are commanded to be seperate from "the world and it's wickedness"
Don't we all wish sometimes to be separate from the world and it's wickedness? Buddhists are very good at this, as are other faiths.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
next, I was thinking of Revelations. If you are one of "the elect", then you are "saved", if you're not, God sends unspeakable torments before death and then you are condemned to eternal punishment for the sins committed over a mere span of decades (the average length of a human life).
To use Revelations, which bears almost NO relation to the teachings of Jesus, is a little extreme. Many Christians, for centuries, were uncertain of the validity of Revelations, and most Christian authorities today (with exception of right wing Fundamentalists) give very little credence to Revelations as anything but symbolic of its time.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Jesus NEVER expressed a prejudice like this. In fact, his Parables were illustrated by his acceptance of outcasts (Samaritans, slaves/servants), and his ministry also accepted and elevated other contemporary outcasts (tax collectors, prostitutes) upon whom the authorities of his time heaped scorn. Again, you are focusing on Jesus' incarnation
Of course. You said nothing in your original to imply anything but Jesus himself, not "Jesus transcendent".
Wilhelm-Scream said:
and completely ignoring the fact that Jesus said he was God
In fact, he called God "Father" in the way you or I might (OK, probably not you, but me), and he never stated that he was God, although he was rather coyly cryptic about it when asked
Wilhelm-Scream said:
and created the universe. Jesus was God made flesh.
This is a post-Jesus, man-made interpretation.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Try reading the flipping
I love that word, "flipping", well done!
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Old Testament and try to repeat what you just said with a straight face.
Again, you can't use the Old Testament (and the post-Jesus' New Testament authors' attempts to use its prophecies) to bolster the new. That is inconsistent. An inconsistency, I concede, that Christian theologians have been guilty of for centuries. Isn't it nice to have such distinguished company? Besides, I refuse to do much of anything with a straight face. That's no fun at all.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
OK. This one I can't believe. First off, it implies that Josef Stalin (an agnostic if there ever was one-- although he headed an atheist government, he himself was not an atheist) would be the ideal lawgiver. Secondly, what is more "common sense" than not killing, not stealing, not lying, and treating others as you would want to be treated? Finally, if the majority is Christian (as is the case in the U.S.) or religious (as is the case in the world), wouldn't simple logic mean that, "in the eyes of the majority", laws enacted by a co-religionist would make "sense". Don't play dumb please.
I never "play" dumb.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I obviously didn't mean EVERY agnostic is going to be an ideal ruler.
Read what you first wrote. It wasn't obviously anything. There was no mention of hypothetical. Therefore, the implied comparison was there, whether intended or not.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I was talking about a certain, hypothetical ruler
You didn't mention "hypothetical" at all. Your statement was declarative.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
who isn't beholden to a diety
is that a God trying to lose weight? Sorry....Please go on...
Wilhelm-Scream said:
forbids work on the Sabbath, immodest attire, commands 10% tithing to the church, blind approval of the state of Israel (God's chosen people, of whom he said "I will bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee), etc.
So you're talking about a Fundamentalist Christian leader. Another hypothetical, since there's never been one. Jimmy Carter came closest. There have been others who sucked up to the Fundamentalists, but the right wing Christians have all been disappointed.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Define "staunch", please. Extremist? If that's your definition of "staunch", then a no "staunch" anything can govern well. This is nonsensical semantics.
Semantics? If you don't define your adjectives, then your argument becomes very confusing and ambiguous. Is your definition of "staunch" Fundamentalist and extremist or is it not? If it is, then I agree with you. If it's not, please be specific. If you don't know, admit it. Are you anti-semantic? Sorry...
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Moving on.
Absolutely...
 
The Question said:
Well he realizes that the different groups are different. What you don't seremto realize is that the different groups are different. Christianity is not inherently evil. It has flaws. But it's not inherently evil. So you read the bible. That does not mean you uinderstand the bible. Which you obviously don't. You're doing what the evangelists do. Taking the bible, reading the parts you want without really looking at the history behind them, and using them to suit your own goals. That does not mean you understand the bible and christianity. Just means you know how to use it to prove yout point, which isn't necesairily valid.

Dowhatnow?
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I'm going to let you in on something. Just because you claim to be a Christian and affix that label to yourself, it doesn't mean that you actually worship and obey Christ.
Of course not. But most of us try, in our own different ways."There are varieties of... but one spirit" Sorry, that's St. Paul. How about "in my Father's house there are many mansions." That's Jesus. Doesn't make me right, just Christian.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
David Koresh and Charles Manson said they were Christians.
Yes they were. And bad ones. Just like Osama Bin Laden IS a Muslim. Just a bad one.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
But, I will give you this, the fact that early America had no problem with slavery does line up with Christianity very nicely as the Bible commands "Slaves, obey your masters." and God gave very specific rules on how to engage in slave-ownership.
Good point. However, it is a huge exaggeration to say that "early America had NO problem with slavery" (cap emphasis mine). The debate over the Declaration of Independence, the growing number of anti-slavery movements, the ending of slavery in the north within a short time after the Revolution, the uneasiness of certain slaveholders, and the abolition of the slave trade by the early 19th century show that many people had a problem with slavery. And St. Paul does tell slaves to obey their masters. But God's instructions on slavery appear in the Old Testament (and you don't see ANY Jews today advocating slavery). Still, you make a solid point.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
If you don't think Christians want to snuff out abortion, strip clubs, pornography, the teaching of evolution in schools, etc. BOY you are uninformed and shockingly naive.
Excuse me. I may be naive (wouldn't shock anyone who knows me), but I'm not uninformed. SOME Christians want to snuff out these things. But not all, not even a majority of all for all. For example: Fundamentalists (a minority) want to snuff out all these things AND institute the death penalty AND support war. Catholics (a majority) want to snuff out abortion and pornography, but they are against the death penalty and they see nothing wrong with evolution. The fact that all attempts to snuff out evolution in schools have ultimately failed shows just how ineffectual these Fundamentalists have been in the grreater scheme of things.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I much prefer "flipping". Wow is just so... ordinary.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH BEING AN ACTIVIST?! That means they're ACTively trying to change the world, but when you're delusional enough to think that, due to God's revelation, you have a standard that is unquestionable, not open for debate and actually classifies as God's Cosmic Truth, that is terrifying. The Taliban are activists and they too would say "What's wrong with what we do? It is Allah's WILL!"
Scary s***.
You are absolutely right, now that you've qualified your argument. But certain things classified as "cosmic truths" (no killing, no stealing, no lying, treating folks fairly) still exemplify a "common sense" approach that humanity in general seems to accept. And remember, some of the most positive "activists", like Dr. King, were active Christians.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I admire those Christian activists who support gay rights and gay marriage,I don't know why because they're fools.
Fools for Christ?
Wilhelm-Scream said:
The Bible is very clear about the fact that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.
ONLY the Old Testament. There is no specific reference to homosexuality in Jesus' teachings. And if I can choose to eat pork and reject death as a punishment, why can't I choose to reject the Old Testament admonition against homosexuality?
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Christians who don't believe homosexuality is a sin remind me of those idiots that think the holocaust was a hoax. Um, the evidence that you're wrong is right there, plain to see.
Not at all. I (and hundreds of thousands of practicing Christians) just see it differently. You seem to define Christianity as a monolith that does not allow Freedom of the Will. That is NOT what Christianity is. I may not be right (only God can judge that) but I'm not wrong.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Now THAT'S true. I'm certainly weird.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Don't blame a religion for the flaws of its individuals: flaws we all posess. I'm blaming to parties, the religion for it's flaws AND the followers for theirs.
OK. But here you separate the two. In your original argument you don't.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Actually, Jesus NEVER made this claim outright. Others made it for him. You are wrong here. Read.Your.Bible. before you start making claims about it.
"You say so". (Jesus).
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Furthermore, even if you want to eel and wiggle and twist
I'd love to be able to eel, wiggle, and twist. But I weigh too much.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
out of the truth
Ah, "truth" is it? Now who's the fundamentalist?
Wilhelm-Scream said:
with half-assed Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.
I agree they may be half-assed, but they are Christians.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
do, you still can't deny that the majority of "Christians" believe in the trinity and yet are monotheistic.
Nope. I don't deny that at all. Just as I don't deny that I'm a fat man, I'm a singer, and I'm a writer, yet I'm still one person. The Trinity is the one thing that people often don't get, and it's easy. I am a father, I am a son, and I am my own individual person, yet I am one person. Why can't God have the same ability as an ordinary person? Better still: why are we all hung up on an anthropomorphic God. It is only by thinking of God as a human-like entity that we have trouble with the Trinity. Even Fundamentalists (God Bless 'em) admit that the Biblical anthropomorphizing of God may be symbolic, and that God can be anything or anyone he/she wants to be. Once you think of God as a "thing", an entity, then Trinitarian concepts become clear. At least, since contrasting the Trinity with monotheism is the height of semantics, you have come a long way to overcome your ant-senanticism. Smile.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Really? I thought this was an "imaginary deity". How can a figment of imagination slaughter anybody? You're obviously having trouble understanding the way I talk about Christianity.
Perhaps, but you were not being very clear.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I make arguments against believers by pointing out the zero-logic of their beliefs based on the assumption that they are true, like "So an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent loving, caring God, who is the source of all that is holy, just and good, ordered his followers to kill every woman, child and animal in the city that day."
Old Testament again. There are volumes of theological literature on the benevolent God and the existence of evil. All very interesting.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
But there will also be times that I speak my own mind, such as "imaginary deity". You're taking it all way too literally.
I've been accused of that too. Apologies.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Look. I agree that Christianity has done some ****ty things over 2000 years. Judaism, Islam, and religions around the world all have their flaws and have made mistakes. But these were mistakes of people who fashioned and interpreted their religions to serve their own ends. And to assume that leadership by the non-religious would be an improvement flies directly in the face of history, especially in the 20th century. I don't know wtf you're talking about here.
God is not responsible for the existence of evil and the behavior of evil people, even in His name, but I believe that He can intervene and judge.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Just because I despise organized religion,
So you ARE arguing against religion and not just Christianity?!
Wilhelm-Scream said:
mainly because of the fact that it's adherents, necessarily, arrogantly believe they they know what's right to the exclusion of all other opinions,
In fact, MOST adherents of MOST religions are far less arrogant and absolute than you seem to believe.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
it doesn't mean that I have a blanket love all things irreligious.
I'm glad to hear it.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
That's just stupid.
I've been called that too.
Wilhelm-Scream said:
ARGUMENT: illogical, ignorant, inconsistant. I.D.I.O.T.I.C. [makes no sense to me either]Right back at ya
I do apologize for this last bit. Not necessary. Mea Culpa.
Perhaps I should follow my own beliefs -- "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Ah, well.
In closing: to classify any belief system according to its strictest tenets is a dangerous thing to do. Either you end up qualifying stark reality (i.e. Communism isn't bad because what passes for communism these days does not adhere strictly to Marx) or you sound just as extreme and absolute as those absolute extremists you are trying to counter. And in the case of Christianity, whose tenets often contradict each other, particularly if you give equal weight to both Old and New Testaments, it is an especially specious ambition.
No matter what our background or belief, custom or culture, faith or fealty, we all occupy the same planet. We share the same world, and the only way to make that work in the end is to compromise, adapt, and evolve. Extremists can't (or won't) do this, and as history tells us, extremists never last as long or as are ultimately effective as the rest of us (the majority).
"I am a Hindu, and a Muslim, and a Jew, and a Christian: and so are all of you." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Peace.
 
scream, you need to realize one thing. Most people aren't made to face the facts like you and I (since I share 99% of your beliefs). You can't go up to an ordinary man and tell him everything he has been told all is life is false and how his life is blah blah..

The truth is once a man grows older the harder it is for him to except the truth, that religion is nothing more than a way to give the common man whos too busy to care. First of all most "christians" don't believe anything, I can garantte you most just go to church every sunday not knowing jack **** about religion or anything other than their own lives.

Stop attacking religion just because you don't belieave it, what you believe is probably closer to truth than any religion BS but you have to be objective, not everyone is a philosopher. I remember from a very young age (as far back as 6/7) me wondering if the earth is flat and about god and I used to ask my mom. Some people are born like that.

I'll post something more sensible, I know i dont make alot of sense.
 
The Question said:
Christianity is not inherently evil.
I believe the fact that it is a fantasy, but not just a harmless fantasy like, say, dressing up as elves and fighting with cardboard swords in the forest, but instead a fantasy that teaches it's adherents that it is actually Cosmic Truth and that it is the source for all knowledge regarding how one should conduct one's self and that anyone who contradicts those teachings is wrong is, yeah, very evil.
We disagree. Boo Hoo.
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I believe the fact that it is a fantasy, but not just a harmless fantasy like, say, dressing up as elves and fighting with cardboard swords in the forest, but instead a fantasy that teaches it's adherents that it is actually Cosmic Truth and that it is the source for all knowledge regarding how one should conduct one's self and that anyone who contradicts those teachings is wrong is, yeah, very evil.
We disagree. Boo Hoo.
Every religion teaches that (especially the 3 big ones).
 
Demopheles. Exactly; that’s why I want you to take religion *** grano salis. I want you to see that one must meet the requirements of the people according to the measure of their comprehension. Where you have masses of people of crude susceptibilities and clumsy intelligence, sordid in their pursuits and sunk in drudgery, religion provides the only means of proclaiming and making them feel the hight import of life. For the average man takes an interest, primarily, in nothing but what will satisfy his physical needs and hankerings, and beyond this, give him a little amusement and pastime. Founders of religion and philosophers come into the world to rouse him from his stupor and point to the lofty meaning of existence; philosophers for the few, the emancipated, founders of religion for the many, for humanity at large. For, as your friend Plato has said, the multitude can’t be philosophers, and you shouldn’t forget that. Religion is the metaphysics of the masses; by all means let them keep it: let it therefore command external respect, for to discredit it is to take it away. Just as they have popular poetry, and the popular wisdom of proverbs, so they must have popular metaphysics too: for mankind absolutely needs an interpretation of life; and this, again, must be suited to popular comprehension. Consequently, this interpretation is always an allegorical investiture of the truth: and in practical life and in its effects on the feelings, that is to say, as a rule of action and as a comfort and consolation in suffering and death, it accomplishes perhaps just as much as the truth itself could achieve if we possessed it. Don’t take offense at its unkempt, grotesque and apparently absurd form; for with your education and learning, you have no idea of the roundabout ways by which people in their crude state have to receive their knowledge of deep truths. The various religions are only various forms in which the truth, which taken by itself is above their comprehension, is grasped and realized by the masses; and truth becomes inseparable from these forms. Therefore, my dear sir, don’t take it amiss if I say that to make a mockery of these forms is both shallow and unjust.

Philalethes. But isn’t it every bit as shallow and unjust to demand that there shall be no other system of metaphysics but this one, cut out as it is to suit the requirements and comprehension of the masses? that its doctrine shall be the limit of human speculation, the standard of all thought, so that the metaphysics of the few, the emancipated, as you call them, must be devoted only to confirming, strengthening, and explaining the metaphysics of the masses? that the highest powers of human intelligence shall remain unused and undeveloped, even be nipped in the bud, in order that their activity may not thwart the popular metaphysics? And isn’t this just the very claim which religion sets up? Isn’t it a little too much to have tolerance and delicate forbearance preached by what is intolerance and cruelty itself? Think of the heretical tribunals, inquisitions, religious wars, crusades, Socrates’ cup of poison, Bruno’s and Vanini’s death in the flames! Is all this to-day quite a thing of the past? How can genuine philosophical effort, sincere search after truth, the noblest calling of the noblest men, be let and hindered more completely than by a conventional system of metaphysics enjoying a State monopoly, the principles of which are impressed into every head in earliest youth, so earnestly, so deeply, and so firmly, that, unless the mind is miraculously elastic, they remain indelible. In this way the groundwork of all healthy reason is once for all deranged; that is to say, the capacity for original thought and unbiased judgment, which is weak enough in itself, is, in regard to those subjects to which it might be applied, for ever paralyzed and ruined.

Demopheles. Which means, I suppose, that people have arrived at a conviction which they won’t give up in order to embrace yours instead.

Philalethes. Ah! if it were only a conviction based on insight. Then one could bring arguments to bear, and the battle would be fought with equal weapons. But religions admittedly appeal, not to conviction as the result of argument, but to belief as demanded by revelation. And as the capacity for believing is strongest in childhood, special care is taken to make sure of this tender age. This has much more to do with the doctrines of belief taking root than threats and reports of miracles. If, in early childhood, certain fundamental views and doctrines are paraded with unusual solemnity, and an air of the greatest earnestness never before visible in anything else; if, at the same time, the possibility of a doubt about them be completely passed over, or touched upon only to indicate that doubt is the first step to eternal perdition, the resulting impression will be so deep that, as a rule, that is, in almost every case, doubt about them will be almost as impossible as doubt about one’s own existence. Hardly one in ten thousand will have the strength of mind to ask himself seriously and earnestly—is that true? To call such as can do it strong minds, esprits forts, is a description more apt than is generally supposed. But for the ordinary mind there is nothing so absurd or revolting but what, if inculcated in that way, the strongest belief in it will strike root. If, for example, the killing of a heretic or infidel were essential to the future salvation of his soul, almost every one would make it the chief event of his life, and in dying would draw consolation and strength from the remembrance that he had succeeded. As a matter of fact, almost every Spaniard in days gone by used to look upon an auto da fe as the most pious of all acts and one most agreeable to God. A parallel to this may be found in the way in which the Thugs (a religious sect in India, suppressed a short time ago by the English, who executed numbers of them) express their sense of religion and their veneration for the goddess Kali; they take every opportunity of murdering their friends and traveling companions, with the object of getting possession of their goods, and in the serious conviction that they are thereby doing a praiseworthy action, conducive to their eternal welfare. [Footnote: Cf. Illustrations of the history and practice of the Thugs, London, 1837; also the Edinburg Review, Oct.-Jan., 1836–7.] The power of religious dogma, when inculcated early, is such as to stifle conscience, compassion, and finally every feeling of humanity. But if you want to see with your own eyes and close at hand what timely inoculation will accomplish, look at the English. Here is a nation favored before all others by nature; endowed, more than all others, with discernment, intelligence, power of judgment, strength of character; look at them, abased and made ridiculous, beyond all others, by their stupid ecclesiastical superstition, which appears amongst their other abilities like a fixed idea or monomania. For this they have to thank the circumstance that education is in the hands of the clergy, whose endeavor it is to impress all the articles of belief, at the earliest age, in a way that amounts to a kind of paralysis of the brain; this in its turn expresses itself all their life in an idiotic bigotry, which makes otherwise most sensible and intelligent people amongst them degrade themselves so that one can’t make head or tail of them. If you consider how essential to such a masterpiece is inoculation in the tender age of childhood, the missionary system appears no longer only as the acme of human importunity, arrogance and impertinence, but also as an absurdity, if it doesn’t confine itself to nations which are still in their infancy, like Caffirs, Hottentots, South Sea Islanders, etc. Amongst these races it is successful; but in India, the Brahmans treat the discourses of the missionaries with contemptuous smiles of approbation, or simply shrug their shoulders. And one may say generally that the proselytizing efforts of the missionaries in India, in spite of the most advantageous facilities, are, as a rule, a failure. An authentic report in the Vol. XXI. of the Asiatic Journal (1826) states that after so many years of missionary activity not more than three hundred living converts were to be found in the whole of India, where the population of the English possessions alone comes to one hundred and fifteen millions; and at the same time it is admitted that the Christian converts are distinguished for their extreme immorality. Three hundred venal and bribed souls out of so many millions! There is no evidence that things have gone better with Christianity in India since then, in spite of the fact that the missionaries are now trying, contrary to stipulation and in schools exclusively designed for secular English instruction, to work upon the children’s minds as they please, in order to smuggle in Christianity; against which the Hindoos are most jealously on their guard. As I have said, childhood is the time to sow the seeds of belief, and not manhood; more especially where an earlier faith has taken root. An acquired conviction such as is feigned by adults is, as a rule, only the mask for some kind of personal interest. And it is the feeling that this is almost bound to be the case which makes a man who has changed his religion in mature years an object of contempt to most people everywhere; who thus show that they look upon religion, not as a matter of reasoned conviction, but merely as a belief inoculated in childhood, before any test can be applied. And that they are right in their view of religion is also obvious from the way in which not only the masses, who are blindly credulous, but also the clergy of every religion, who, as such, have faithfully and zealously studied its sources, foundations, dogmas and disputed points, cleave as a body to the religion of their particular country; consequently for a minister of one religion or confession to go over to another is the rarest thing in the world. The Catholic clergy, for example, are fully convinced of the truth of all the tenets of their Church, and so are the Protestant clergy of theirs, and both defend the principles of their creeds with like zeal. And yet the conviction is governed merely by the country native to each; to the South German ecclesiastic the truth of the Catholic dogma is quite obvious, to the North German, the Protestant. If then, these convictions are based on objective reasons, the reasons must be climatic, and thrive, like plants, some only here, some only there. The convictions of those who are thus locally convinced are taken on trust and believed by the masses everywhere.
 
Philalethes. So it seems. Still I take a higher standpoint, and keep in view a more important object, the progress, namely, of the knowledge of truth among mankind. And from this point of view, it is a terrible thing that, wherever a man is born, certain propositions are inculcated in him in earliest youth, and he is assured that he may never have any doubts about them, under penalty of thereby forfeiting eternal salvation; propositions, I mean, which affect the foundation of all our other knowledge and accordingly determine for ever, and, if they are false, distort for ever, the point of view from which our knowledge starts; and as, further, the corollaries of these propositions touch the entire system of our intellectual attainments at every point, the whole of human knowledge is thoroughly adulterated by them. Evidence of this is afforded by every literature; the most striking by that of the Middle Age, but in a too considerable degree by that of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Look at even the first minds of all those epochs; how paralyzed they are by false fundamental positions like these; how, more especially, all insight into the true constitution and working of nature is, as it were, blocked up. During the whole of the Christian period Theism lies like a mountain on all intellectual, and chiefly on all philosophical efforts, and arrests or stunts all progress. For the scientific men of these ages God, devil, angels, demons hid the whole of nature; no inquiry was followed to the end, nothing ever thoroughly examined; everything which went beyond the most obvious casual nexus was immediately set down to those personalities. “It was at once explained by a reference to God, angels or demons,” as Pomponatius expressed himself when the matter was being discussed, “and philosophers at any rate have nothing analogous.” There is, to be sure, a suspicion of irony in this statement of Pomponatius, as his perfidy in other matters is known; still, he is only giving expression to the general way of thinking of his age. And if, on the other hand, any one possessed the rare quality of an elastic mind, which alone could burst the bonds, his writings and he himself with them were burnt; as happened to Bruno and Vanini. How completely an ordinary mind is paralyzed by that early preparation in metaphysics is seen in the most vivid way and on its most ridiculous side, where such a one undertakes to criticise the doctrines of an alien creed. The efforts of the ordinary man are generally found to be directed to a careful exhibition of the incongruity of its dogmas with those of his own belief: he is at great pains to show that not only do they not say, but certainly do not mean, the same thing; and with that he thinks, in his simplicity, that he has demonstrated the falsehood of the alien creed. He really never dreams of putting the question which of the two may be right; his own articles of belief he looks upon as à priori true and certain principles.

Demopheles. So that’s your higher point of view? I assure you there is a higher still. First live, then philosophize is a maxim of more comprehensive import than appears at first sight. The first thing to do is to control the raw and evil dispositions of the masses, so as to keep them from pushing injustice to extremes, and from committing cruel, violent and disgraceful acts. If you were to wait until they had recognized and grasped the truth, you would undoubtedly come too late; and truth, supposing that it had been found, would surpass their powers of comprehension. In any case an allegorical investiture of it, a parable or myth, is all that would be of any service to them. As Kant said, there must be a public standard of Right and Virtue; it must always flutter high overhead. It is a matter of indifference what heraldic figures are inscribed on it, so long as they signify what is meant. Such an allegorical representation of truth is always and everywhere, for humanity at large, a serviceable substitute for a truth to which it can never attain,—for a philosophy which it can never grasp; let alone the fact that it is daily changing its shape, and has in no form as yet met with general acceptance. Practical aims, then, my good Philalethes, are in every respect superior to theoretical.

Philalethes. What you say is very like the ancient advice of Timaeus of Locrus, the Pythagorean, stop the mind with falsehood if you can’t speed it with truth. I almost suspect that your plan is the one which is so much in vogue just now, that you want to impress upon me that

The hour is nigh
When we may feast in quiet.

You recommend us, in fact, to take timely precautions, so that the waves of the discontented raging masses mayn’t disturb us at table. But the whole point of view is as false as it is now-a-days popular and commended; and so I make haste to enter a protest against it. It is false, that state, justice, law cannot be upheld without the assistance of religion and its dogmas; and that justice and public order need religion as a necessary complement, if legislative enactments are to be carried out. It is false, were it repeated a hundred times. An effective and striking argument to the contrary is afforded by the ancients, especially the Greeks. They had nothing at all of what we understand by religion. They had no sacred documents, no dogma to be learned and its acceptance furthered by every one, its principles to be inculcated early on the young. Just as little was moral doctrine preached by the ministers of religion, nor did the priests trouble themselves about morality or about what the people did or left undone. Not at all. The duty of the priests was confined to temple-ceremonial, prayers, hymns, sacrifices, processions, lustrations and the like, the object of which was anything but the moral improvement of the individual. What was called religion consisted, more especially in the cities, in giving temples here and there to some of the gods of the greater tribes, in which the worship described was carried on as a state matter, and was consequently, in fact, an affair of police. No one, except the functionaries performing, was in any way compelled to attend, or even to believe in it. In the whole of antiquity there is no trace of any obligation to believe in any particular dogma. Merely in the case of an open denial of the existence of the gods, or any other reviling of them, a penalty was imposed, and that on account of the insult offered to the state, which served those gods; beyond this it was free to everyone to think of them what he pleased. If anyone wanted to gain the favor of those gods privately, by prayer or sacrifice, it was open to him to do so at his own expense and at his own risk; if he didn’t do it, no one made any objection, least of all the state. In the case of the Romans, everyone had his own Lares and Penates at home; they were, however, in reality, only the venerated busts of ancestors. Of the immortality of the soul and a life beyond the grave, the ancients had no firm, clear or, least of all, dogmatically fixed idea, but very loose, fluctuating, indefinite and problematical notions, everyone in his own way: and the ideas about the gods were just as varying, individual and vague. There was, therefore, really no religion, in our sense of the word, amongst the ancients. But did anarchy and lawlessness prevail amongst them on that account? Is not law and civil order, rather, so much their work, that it still forms the foundation of our own? Was there not complete protection for property, even though it consisted for the most part of slaves? And did not this state of things last for more than a thousand years? So that I can’t recognize, I must even protest against the practical aims and the necessity of religion in the sense indicated by you, and so popular now-a-days, that is, as an indispensable foundation of all legislative arrangements. For, if you take that point of view, the pure and sacred endeavor after truth would, to say the least, appear quixotic, and even criminal, if it ventured, in its feeling of justice, to denounce the authoritative creed as a usurper who had taken possession of the throne of truth and maintained his position by keeping up the deception.

Demopheles. But religion is not opposed to truth; it itself teaches truth. And as the range of its activity is not a narrow lecture room, but the world and humanity at large, religion must conform to the requirements and comprehension of an audience so numerous and so mixed. Religion must not let truth appear in its naked form; or, to use a medical simile, it must not exhibit it pure, but must employ a mythical vehicle, a medium, as it were. You can also compare truth in this respect to certain chemical stuffs which in themselves are gaseous, but which for medicinal uses, as also for preservation or transmission, must be bound to a stable, solid base, because they would otherwise volatilize. Chlorine gas, for example, is for all purposes applied only in the form of chlorides. But if truth, pure, abstract and free from all mythical alloy, is always to remain unattainable, even by philosophers, it might be compared to fluorine, which cannot even be isolated, but must always appear in combination with other elements. Or, to take a less scientific simile, truth, which is inexpressible except by means of myth and allegory, is like water, which can be carried about only in vessels; a philosopher who insists on obtaining it pure is like a man who breaks the jug in order to get the water by itself. This is, perhaps, an exact analogy. At any rate, religion is truth allegorically and mythically expressed, and so rendered attainable and digestible by mankind in general. Mankind couldn’t possibly take it pure and unmixed, just as we can’t breathe pure oxygen; we require an addition of four times its bulk in nitrogen. In plain language, the profound meaning, the high aim of life, can only be unfolded and presented to the masses symbolically, because they are incapable of grasping it in its true signification. Philosophy, on the other hand, should be like the Eleusinian mysteries, for the few, the élite.

Philalethes. I understand. It comes, in short, to truth wearing the garment of falsehood. But in doing so it enters on a fatal alliance. What a dangerous weapon is put into the hands of those who are authorized to employ falsehood as the vehicle of truth! If it is as you say, I fear the damage caused by the falsehood will be greater than any advantage the truth could ever produce. Of course, if the allegory were admitted to be such, I should raise no objection; but with the admission it would rob itself of all respect, and consequently, of all utility. The allegory must, therefore, put in a claim to be true in the proper sense of the word, and maintain the claim; while, at the most, it is true only in an allegorical sense. Here lies the irreparable mischief, the permanent evil; and this is why religion has always been and always will be in conflict with the noble endeavor after pure truth.

Demopheles. Oh no! that danger is guarded against. If religion mayn’t exactly confess its allegorical nature, it gives sufficient indication of it.

Philalethes. How so?

Demopheles. In its mysteries. “Mystery,” is in reality only a technical theological term for religious allegory. All religions have their mysteries. Properly speaking, a mystery is a dogma which is plainly absurd, but which, nevertheless, conceals in itself a lofty truth, and one which by itself would be completely incomprehensible to the ordinary understanding of the raw multitude. The multitude accepts it in this disguise on trust, and believes it, without being led astray by the absurdity of it, which even to its intelligence is obvious; and in this way it participates in the kernel of the matter so far as it is possible for it to do so. To explain what I mean, I may add that even in philosophy an attempt has been made to make use of a mystery. Pascal, for example, who was at once a pietist, a mathematician, and a philosopher, says in this threefold capacity: God is everywhere center and nowhere periphery. Malebranche has also the just remark: Liberty is a mystery. One could go a step further and maintain that in religions everything is mystery. For to impart truth, in the proper sense of the word, to the multitude in its raw state is absolutely impossible; all that can fall to its lot is to be enlightened by a mythological reflection of it. Naked truth is out of place before the eyes of the profane vulgar; it can only make its appearance thickly veiled. Hence, it is unreasonable to require of a religion that it shall be true in the proper sense of the word; and this, I may observe in passing, is now-a-days the absurd contention of Rationalists and Supernaturalists alike. Both start from the position that religion must be the real truth; and while the former demonstrate that it is not the truth, the latter obstinately maintain that it is; or rather, the former dress up and arrange the allegorical element in such a way, that, in the proper sense of the word, it could be true, but would be, in that case, a platitude; while the latter wish to maintain that it is true in the proper sense of the word, without any further dressing; a belief, which, as we ought to know is only to be enforced by inquisitions and the stake. As a fact, however, myth and allegory really form the proper element of religion; and under this indispensable condition, which is imposed by the intellectual limitation of the multitude, religion provides a sufficient satisfaction for those metaphysical requirements of mankind which are indestructible. It takes the place of that pure philosophical truth which is infinitely difficult and perhaps never attainable.

Philalethes. Ah! just as a wooden leg takes the place of a natural one; it supplies what is lacking, barely does duty for it, claims to be regarded as a natural leg, and is more or less artfully put together. The only difference is that, whilst a natural leg as a rule preceded the wooden one, religion has everywhere got the start of philosophy.

Demopheles. That may be, but still for a man who hasn’t a natural leg, a wooden one is of great service. You must bear in mind that the metaphysical needs of mankind absolutely require satisfaction, because the horizon of men’s thoughts must have a background and not remain unbounded. Man has, as a rule, no faculty for weighing reasons and discriminating between what is false and what is true; and besides, the labor which nature and the needs of nature impose upon him, leaves him no time for such enquiries, or for the education which they presuppose. In his case, therefore, it is no use talking of a reasoned conviction; he has to fall back on belief and authority. If a really true philosophy were to take the place of religion, nine-tenths at least of mankind would have to receive it on authority; that is to say, it too would be a matter of faith, for Plato’s dictum, that the multitude can’t be philosophers, will always remain true. Authority, however, is an affair of time and circumstance alone, and so it can’t be bestowed on that which has only reason in its favor, it must accordingly be allowed to nothing but what has acquired it in the course of history, even if it is only an allegorical representation of truth. Truth in this form, supported by authority, appeals first of all to those elements in the human constitution which are strictly metaphysical, that is to say, to the need man feels of a theory in regard to the riddle of existence which forces itself upon his notice, a need arising from the consciousness that behind the physical in the world there is a metaphysical, something permanent as the foundation of constant change. Then it appeals to the will, to the fears and hopes of mortal beings living in constant struggle; for whom, accordingly, religion creates gods and demons whom they can cry to, appease and win over. Finally, it appeals to that moral consciousness which is undeniably present in man, lends to it that corroboration and support without which it would not easily maintain itself in the struggle against so many temptations. It is just from this side that religion affords an inexhaustible source of consolation and comfort in the innumerable trials of life, a comfort which does not leave men in death, but rather then only unfolds its full efficacy. So religion may be compared to one who takes a blind man by the hand and leads him, because he is unable to see for himself, whose concern it is to reach his destination, not to look at everything by the way.

Philalethes. That is certainly the strong point of religion. If it is a fraud, it is a pious fraud; that is undeniable. But this makes priests something between deceivers and teachers of morality; they daren’t teach the real truth, as you have quite rightly explained, even if they knew it, which is not the case. A true philosophy, then, can always exist, but not a true religion; true, I mean, in the proper understanding of the word, not merely in that flowery or allegorical sense which you have described; a sense in which all religions would be true, only in various degrees. It is quite in keeping with the inextricable mixture of weal and woe, honesty and deceit, good and evil, nobility and baseness, which is the average characteristic of the world everywhere, that the most important, the most lofty, the most sacred truths can make their appearance only in combination with a lie, can even borrow strength from a lie as from something that works more powerfully on mankind; and, as revelation, must be ushered in by a lie. This might, indeed, be regarded as the cachet of the moral world. However, we won’t give up the hope that mankind will eventually reach a point of maturity and education at which it can on the one side produce, and on the other receive, the true philosophy. Simplex sigillum veri: the naked truth must be so simple and intelligible that it can be imparted to all in its true form, without any admixture of myth and fable, without disguising it in the form of religion.

Demopheles. You’ve no notion how stupid most people are.

Philalethes. I am only expressing a hope which I can’t give up. If it were fulfilled, truth in its simple and intelligible form would of course drive religion from the place it has so long occupied as its representative, and by that very means kept open for it. The time would have come when religion would have carried out her object and completed her course: the race she had brought to years of discretion she could dismiss, and herself depart in peace: that would be the euthanasia of religion. But as long as she lives, she has two faces, one of truth, one of fraud. According as you look at one or the other, you will bear her favor or ill-will. Religion must be regarded as a necessary evil, its necessity resting on the pitiful imbecility of the great majority of mankind, incapable of grasping the truth, and therefore requiring, in its pressing need, something to take its place.
 
Demopheles. Really, one would think that you philosophers had truth in a cupboard, and that all you had to do was to go and get it!

Philalethes. Well, if we haven’t got it, it is chiefly owing to the pressure put upon philosophy by religion at all times and in all places. People have tried to make the expression and communication of truth, even the contemplation and discovery of it, impossible, by putting children, in their earliest years, into the hands of priests to be manipulated; to have the lines, in which their fundamental thoughts are henceforth to run, laid down with such firmness as, in essential matters, to be fixed and determined for this whole life. When I take up the writings even of the best intellects of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, (more especially if I have been engaged in Oriental studies), I am sometimes shocked to see how they are paralyzed and hemmed in on all sides by Jewish ideas. How can anyone think out the true philosophy when he is prepared like this?

Demopheles. Even if the true philosophy were to be discovered, religion wouldn’t disappear from the world, as you seem to think. There can’t be one system of metaphysics for everybody; that’s rendered impossible by the natural differences of intellectual power between man and man, and the differences, too, which education makes. It is a necessity for the great majority of mankind to engage in that severe bodily labor which cannot be dispensed with if the ceaseless requirements of the whole race are to be satisfied. Not only does this leave the majority no time for education, for learning, for contemplation; but by virtue of the hard and fast antagonism between muscles and mind, the intelligence is blunted by so much exhausting bodily labor, and becomes heavy, clumsy, awkward, and consequently incapable of grasping any other than quite simple situations. At least nine-tenths of the human race falls under this category. But still the people require a system of metaphysics, that is, an account of the world and our existence, because such an account belongs to the most natural needs of mankind, they require a popular system; and to be popular it must combine many rare qualities. It must be easily understood, and at the same time possess, on the proper points, a certain amount of obscurity, even of impenetrability; then a correct and satisfactory system of morality must be bound up with its dogmas; above all, it must afford inexhaustible consolation in suffering and death; the consequence of all this is, that it can only be true in an allegorical and not in a real sense. Further, it must have the support of an authority which is impressive by its great age, by being universally recognized, by its documents, their tone and utterances; qualities which are so extremely difficult to combine that many a man wouldn’t be so ready, if he considered the matter, to help to undermine a religion, but would reflect that what he is attacking is a people’s most sacred treasure. If you want to form an opinion on religion, you should always bear in mind the character of the great multitude for which it is destined, and form a picture to yourself of its complete inferiority, moral and intellectual. It is incredible how far this inferiority goes, and how perseveringly a spark of truth will glimmer on even under the crudest covering of monstrous fable or grotesque ceremony, clinging indestructibly, like the odor of musk, to everything that has once come into contact with it. In illustration of this, consider the profound wisdom of the Upanishads, and then look at the mad idolatry in the India of to-day, with its pilgrimages, processions and festivities, or at the insane and ridiculous goings-on of the Saniassi. Still one can’t deny that in all this insanity and nonsense there lies some obscure purpose which accords with, or is a reflection of the profound wisdom I mentioned. But for the brute multitude, it had to be dressed up in this form. In such a contrast as this we have the two poles of humanity, the wisdom of the individual and the bestiality of the many, both of which find their point of contact in the moral sphere. That saying from the Kurral must occur to everybody. Base people look like men, but I have never seen their exact counterpart. The man of education may, all the same, interpret religion to himself *** grano salis; the man of learning, the contemplative spirit may secretly exchange it for a philosophy. But here again one philosophy wouldn’t suit everybody; by the laws of affinity every system would draw to itself that public to whose education and capacities it was most suited. So there is always an inferior metaphysical system of the schools for the educated multitude, and a higher one for the élite. Kant’s lofty doctrine, for instance, had to be degraded to the level of the schools and ruined by such men as Fries, Krug and Salat. In short, here, if anywhere, Goethe’s maxim is true, One does not suit all. Pure faith in revelation and pure metaphysics are for the two extremes, and for the intermediate steps mutual modifications of both in innumerable combinations and gradations. And this is rendered necessary by the immeasurable differences which nature and education have placed between man and man.

Philalethes. The view you take reminds me seriously of the mysteries of the ancients, which you mentioned just now. Their fundamental purpose seems to have been to remedy the evil arising from the differences of intellectual capacity and education. The plan was, out of the great multitude utterly impervious to unveiled truth, to select certain persons who might have it revealed to them up to a given point; out of these, again, to choose others to whom more would be revealed, as being able to grasp more; and so on up to the Epopts. These grades correspond to the little, greater and greatest mysteries. The arrangement was founded on a correct estimate of the intellectual inequality of mankind.

Demopheles. To some extent the education in our lower, middle and high schools corresponds to the varying grades of initiation into the mysteries.

Philalethes. In a very approximate way; and then only in so far as subjects of higher knowledge are written about exclusively in Latin. But since that has ceased to be the case, all the mysteries are profaned.

Demopheles. However that may be, I wanted to remind you that you should look at religion more from the practical than from the theoretical side. Personified metaphysics may be the enemy of religion, but all the same personified morality will be its friend. Perhaps the metaphysical element in all religions is false; but the moral element in all is true. This might perhaps be presumed from the fact that they all disagree in their metaphysics, but are in accord as regards morality.

Philalethes. Which is an illustration of the rule of logic that false premises may give a true conclusion.

Demopheles. Let me hold you to your conclusion: let me remind you that religion has two sides. If it can’t stand when looked at from its theoretical, that is, its intellectual side; on the other hand, from the moral side, it proves itself the only means of guiding, controlling and mollifying those races of animals endowed with reason, whose kinship with the ape does not exclude a kinship with the tiger. But at the same time religion is, as a rule, a sufficient satisfaction for their dull metaphysical necessities. You don’t seem to me to possess a proper idea of the difference, wide as the heavens asunder, the deep gulf between your man of learning and enlightenment, accustomed to the process of thinking, and the heavy, clumsy, dull and sluggish consciousness of humanity’s beasts of burden, whose thoughts have once and for all taken the direction of anxiety about their livelihood, and cannot be put in motion in any other; whose muscular strength is so exclusively brought into play that the nervous power, which makes intelligence, sinks to a very low ebb. People like that must have something tangible which they can lay hold of on the slippery and thorny pathway of their life, some sort of beautiful fable, by means of which things can be imparted to them which their crude intelligence can entertain only in picture and parable. Profound explanations and fine distinctions are thrown away upon them. If you conceive religion in this light, and recollect that its aims are above all practical, and only in a subordinate degree theoretical, it will appear to you as something worthy of the highest respect.

Philalethes. A respect which will finally rest upon the principle that the end sanctifies the means. I don’t feel in favor of a compromise on a basis like that. Religion may be an excellent means of training the perverse, obtuse and ill-disposed members of the biped race: in the eyes of the friend of truth every fraud, even though it be a pious one, is to be condemned. A system of deception, a pack of lies, would be a strange means of inculcating virtue. The flag to which I have taken the oath is truth; I shall remain faithful to it everywhere, and whether I succeed or not, I shall fight for light and truth! If I see religion on the wrong side—

Demopheles. But you won’t. Religion isn’t a deception: it is true and the most important of all truths. Because its doctrines are, as I have said, of such a lofty kind that the multitude can’t grasp them without an intermediary, because, I say, its light would blind the ordinary eye, it comes forward wrapt in the veil of allegory and teaches, not indeed what is exactly true in itself, but what is true in respect of the lofty meaning contained in it; and, understood in this way, religion is the truth.

Philalethes. It would be all right if religion were only at liberty to be true in a merely allegorical sense. But its contention is that it is downright true in the proper sense of the word. Herein lies the deception, and it is here that the friend of truth must take up a hostile position.

Demopheles. The deception is a sine qua non. If religion were to admit that it was only the allegorical meaning in its doctrine which was true, it would rob itself of all efficacy. Such rigorous treatment as this would destroy its invaluable influence on the hearts and morals of mankind. Instead of insisting on that with pedantic obstinacy, look at its great achievements in the practical sphere, its furtherance of good and kindly feelings, its guidance in conduct, the support and consolation it gives to suffering humanity in life and death. How much you ought to guard against letting theoretical cavils discredit in the eyes of the multitude, and finally wrest from it, something which is an inexhaustible source of consolation and tranquillity, something which, in its hard lot, it needs so much, even more than we do. On that score alone, religion should be free from attack.

Philalethes. With that kind of argument you could have driven Luther from the field, when he attacked the sale of indulgences. How many a one got consolation from the letters of indulgence, a consolation which nothing else could give, a complete tranquillity; so that he joyfully departed with the fullest confidence in the packet of them which he held in his hand at the hour of death, convinced that they were so many cards of admission to all the nine heavens. What is the use of grounds of consolation and tranquillity which are constantly overshadowed by the Damocles-sword of illusion? The truth, my dear sir, is the only safe thing; the truth alone remains steadfast and trusty; it is the only solid consolation; it is the indestructible diamond.

Demopheles. Yes, if you had truth in your pocket, ready to favor us with it on demand. All you’ve got are metaphysical systems, in which nothing is certain but the headaches they cost. Before you take anything away, you must have something better to put in its place.

Philalethes. That’s what you keep on saying. To free a man from error is to give, not to take away. Knowledge that a thing is false is a truth. Error always does harm; sooner or later it will bring mischief to the man who harbors it. Then give up deceiving people; confess ignorance of what you don’t know, and leave everyone to form his own articles of faith for himself. Perhaps they won’t turn out so bad, especially as they’ll rub one another’s corners down, and mutually rectify mistakes. The existence of many views will at any rate lay a foundation of tolerance. Those who possess knowledge and capacity may betake themselves to the study of philosophy, or even in their own persons carry the history of philosophy a step further.

Demopheles. That’ll be a pretty business! A whole nation of raw metaphysicians, wrangling and eventually coming to blows with one another!

Philalethes. Well, well, a few blows here and there are the sauce of life; or at any rate a very inconsiderable evil compared with such things as priestly dominion, plundering of the laity, persecution of heretics, courts of inquisition, crusades, religious wars, massacres of St. Bartholomew. These have been the result of popular metaphysics imposed from without; so I stick to the old saying that you can’t get grapes from thistles, nor expect good to come from a pack of lies.

Demopheles. How often must I repeat that religion is anything but a pack of lies? It is truth itself, only in a mythical, allegorical vesture. But when you spoke of your plan of everyone being his own founder of religion, I wanted to say that a particularism like this is totally opposed to human nature, and would consequently destroy all social order. Man is a metaphysical animal,—that is to say, he has paramount metaphysical necessities; accordingly, he conceives life above all in its metaphysical signification, and wishes to bring everything into line with that. Consequently, however strange it may sound in view of the uncertainty of all dogmas, agreement in the fundamentals of metaphysics is the chief thing, because a genuine and lasting bond of union is only possible among those who are of one opinion on these points. As a result of this, the main point of likeness and of contrast between nations is rather religion than government, or even language; and so the fabric of society, the State, will stand firm only when founded on a system of metaphysics which is acknowledged by all. This, of course, can only be a popular system,—that is, a religion: it becomes part and parcel of the constitution of the State, of all the public manifestations of the national life, and also of all solemn acts of individuals. This was the case in ancient India, among the Persians, Egyptians, Jews, Greeks and Romans; it is still the case in the Brahman, Buddhist and Mohammedan nations. In China there are three faiths, it is true, of which the most prevalent—Buddhism—is precisely the one which is not protected by the State; still, there is a saying in China, universally acknowledged, and of daily application, that “the three faiths are only one,”—that is to say, they agree in essentials. The Emperor confesses all three together at the same time. And Europe is the union of Christian States: Christianity is the basis of every one of the members, and the common bond of all. Hence Turkey, though geographically in Europe, is not properly to be reckoned as belonging to it. In the same way, the European princes hold their place “by the grace of God:” and the Pope is the vicegerent of God. Accordingly, as his throne was the highest, he used to wish all thrones to be regarded as held in fee from him. In the same way, too, Archbishops and Bishops, as such, possessed temporal power; and in England they still have seats and votes in the Upper House. Protestant princes, as such, are heads of their churches: in England, a few years ago, this was a girl eighteen years old. By the revolt from the Pope, the Reformation shattered the European fabric, and in a special degree dissolved the true unity of Germany by destroying its common religious faith. This union, which had practically come to an end, had, accordingly, to be restored later on by artificial and purely political means. You see, then, how closely connected a common faith is with the social order and the constitution of every State. Faith is everywhere the support of the laws and the constitution, the foundation, therefore, of the social fabric, which could hardly hold together at all if religion did not lend weight to the authority of government and the dignity of the ruler.
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I believe the fact that it is a fantasy, but not just a harmless fantasy like, say, dressing up as elves and fighting with cardboard swords in the forest, but instead a fantasy that teaches it's adherents that it is actually Cosmic Truth and that it is the source for all knowledge regarding how one should conduct one's self and that anyone who contradicts those teachings is wrong is, yeah, very evil.
We disagree. Boo Hoo.


But that's not even close to an acurate veiw of Christianity. All religions say they're right. And Christianity doesn't say anything about how to conduct one's self that isn't in most pther religions and is in the law itself. Sure, the bible has some points that are less than good. But you have to remember that those reflected a time that were VERY different from now, and were at least somewhat necesairy then, or were at least considered cultural norms. You haven't actually taken the time to try and understand christianity. You read the bible, didn't like all of what you read, and assumed Christianity was evil. Which is not the case. There's more to christianity than the bible. There are centuries of history behind it and to truely understand christrianity, you need to understand that history. Otherwise, you get a very incomplete picture.
 
Maybe someday I'll slog through all of th^t, Liquid Snake. :eek:

anyway, Question's Friend, thanks for the response and I think a lot can be cleared up if I point out that I was a "Born Again" Christian for most of my life and my best friend in the world and my whole beloved family are Christians so we've had about 3 trillion friendly, amazing, sometimes greuling and heated, sometimes hilarious and fun 6 or 7 hour long debates between us... so I sure don't hate all Christians, and, when I say "Christians do this and Christians say that", it is meant more like, "There ARE Christians who _________." because of course you can't generalize with something so complex.

But I have a real problem with loose interpretations of the Bible and people who claim to be believers and yet pick and choose the most palatable parts of the Bible to believe in and then conveniently edit out the less savory ones.

Surely the omnipotent God, who supposedly loves us all so much, has the power to get his message across to us correctly.
And it musn't be forgotten, the time Jesus said "Think not that I came to do away with the Law."
He quoted the Old Testament all of the time. He professed to be the fulfillment of the Law, and if anything , the standards became more stringent after his incarnation.

Before, if you screwed your neighbors wife, then you were guilty of adultery, A.D., if you so much as check out a babe on the street, you are guilty of adultery.

anyway, more later, possibly, thanks again.
 
The Question said:
But that's not even close to an acurate veiw of Christianity. All religions say they're right. And Christianity doesn't say anything about how to conduct one's self that isn't in most pther religions and is in the law itself. Sure, the bible has some points that are less than good. But you have to remember that those reflected a time that were VERY different from now, and were at least somewhat necesairy then, or were at least considered cultural norms. You haven't actually taken the time to try and understand christianity. You read the bible, didn't like all of what you read, and assumed Christianity was evil. Which is not the case. There's more to christianity than the bible. There are centuries of history behind it and to truely understand christrianity, you need to understand that history. Otherwise, you get a very incomplete picture.
You don't think mass genocide is evil? You don't think it's screwed up to kill a man and wife just because they lied about how much money they donated (Ananias and Saphira, NEW testament)? And the whole blood-thirsty system of slaughtering and burning innocent animals to "pay" for your "sins"...it's barbaric.

People say that God isn't responsible for evil. Sorry, no child would've ever be anally raped by their father, no child would've had an autopsy performed on her by Josef Mengele while she was perfectly conscious, etc. if it weren't for God.
People say that it's a necessary evil because God gave us free will, so, since we're imperfect, of course some will choose evil. "God doesn't force us to be mindless automatons" is the line.

But that's not a sufficient explanation because supposedly, God will perfect all of his followers because he can not countenance sin, and there will be NO sin in Heaven...so are they saying that when we die God makes us into "mindless automatons" ?

God didn't have to leave the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there where Adam and Eve could get to it. That's like a parent leaving a plugged in radio on the bathtub and leaving their toddler in the water and walking away...PSYCHO!

Plus, God already knew that the humans would rebel, so that means, he could've prevented it, but didn't, so, he WANTED it to happen.


The story doesn't even make rudimentary sense.
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
But I have a real problem with loose interpretations of the Bible and people who claim to be believers and yet pick and choose the most palatable parts of the Bible to believe in and then conveniently edit out the less savory ones.

The thing is, no one follows the bible 100%. Not even the fundamentalists, even though they say they do. If you try to, you'll get confused as hell because there are more than a few contradictions.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
Surely the omnipotent God, who supposedly loves us all so much, has the power to get his message across to us correctly.

The bible is really a collection of the writings of several people over thousands of years. Even if it is God's word directly (which most christians don't entirely believe), you honestly think that none of the writers would put their own spin on it? That, and the bible went through hundeds of edits and revisions. Some of the things that Jesus was quoted as saying, he never actually said. They were added by scribes several centuries later. Of course it's not going to be a clear, consise message.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
And it musn't be forgotten, the time Jesus said "Think not that I came to do away with the Law."
He quoted the Old Testament all of the time. He professed to be the fulfillment of the Law, and if anything , the standards became more stringent after his incarnation.

Yes. But it is clear that in Jesus' fulfiling of the law, it evolved. We no longer divorce our wives with a single word, nor do we punish hundreds of crimes with brutality or death. "Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone". Bit of a contradiction from the old testament "He ate pork? He is outcast." So Jesus, and those who followed him, contradicted the old testament.
 
One day, when someone on the Hype musters up that pesky mistress called an attention span, they can summarize Liquid Snake's post(s) for me. :up:
 
Sarge 2.0 said:
One day, when someone on the Hype musters up that pesky mistress called an attention span, they can summarize Liquid Snake's post(s) for me. :up:
How did so many words get on this page....I ain't reading all that stuff:o
 
The Question said:
The thing is, no one follows the bible 100%. Not even the fundamentalists, even though they say they do. If you try to, you'll get confused as hell because there are more than a few contradictions.



The bible is really a collection of the writings of several people over thousands of years. Even if it is God's word directly (which most christians don't entirely believe), you honestly think that none of the writers would put their own spin on it? That, and the bible went through hundeds of edits and revisions. Some of the things that Jesus was quoted as saying, he never actually said. They were added by scribes several centuries later. Of course it's not going to be a clear, consise message.



Yes. But it is clear that in Jesus' fulfiling of the law, it evolved. We no longer divorce our wives with a single word, nor do we punish hundreds of crimes with brutality or death. "Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone". Bit of a contradiction from the old testament "He ate pork? He is outcast." So Jesus, and those who followed him, contradicted the old testament.

I believe Wilhelm has been pointing out that Christianity is built on hypocrisy, which you're sort of proving for him.

jag
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
You don't think mass genocide is evil? You don't think it's screwed up to kill a man and wife just because they lied about how much money they donated (Ananias and Saphira, NEW testament)? And the whole blood-thirsty system of slaughtering and burning innocent animals to "pay" for your "sins"...it's barbaric.

Of course it is. But, show me what good Christians follow that docterine now.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
People say that God isn't responsible for evil. Sorry, no child would've ever be anally raped by their father, no child would've had an autopsy performed on her by Josef Mengele while she was perfectly conscious, etc. if it weren't for God.

By the same logic, milk causes cancer. Why? Because, since everybody who got cancer drank milk as a child, then milk must be the cause. Man is the cause of evil, not God. The fact that God created man while signifigant, is not imediately the cause. Free will is the cause. So, that's like saying that a father is responsible for the crimes of his adult son.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
People say that it's a necessary evil because God gave us free will, so, since we're imperfect, of course some will choose evil. "God doesn't force us to be mindless automatons" is the line.

But that's not a sufficient explanation because supposedly, God will perfect all of his followers because he can not countenance sin, and there will be NO sin in Heaven...so are they saying that when we die God makes us into "mindless automatons" ?

No. The good will be seperated from the bad, is what they say. And, if we have nothing to fight for (no hunger, polotics, famine, poverty, etc.), there will be no reason to choose sinful or criminal behaviour.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
God didn't have to leave the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there where Adam and Eve could get to it. That's like a parent leaving a plugged in radio on the bathtub and leaving their toddler in the water and walking away...PSYCHO!

Unless you're talking to or about fundamentalists, then you have to realize this: It's a metaphore. And most Christians (besides the fundamentalists) realize that it's a metaphore. It's a parable. Meant to ilustrait the shortcomings of free will.

Wilhelm-Scream said:
Plus, God already knew that the humans would rebel, so that means, he could've prevented it, but didn't, so, he WANTED it to happen.

That's Calvinist predestination. Which is most definately a post biblical idea, and is not accepted by the majority of christians, including many fundamentalists. The Chatholic church, which is the majority of christians, has never accepted it.
 
jaguarr said:
I believe Wilhelm has been pointing out that Christianity is built on hypocrisy, which you're sort of proving for him.

jag


I never said that Christianity didn't have contradictions. But that doesn't make it inherently evil.
 
The Question said:
Of course it is. But, show me what good Christians follow that docterine now.

I like docterines, they're like tiny sour oranges :)
 

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