The Rise of Skywalker ROS What went wrong (Spoilers Welcomed)

[TheVileOne]

Well, here's my point. The outcome is that you do need someone to train and mentor Rey. Unfortunate circumstances or not, Carrie Fisher is out of the picture. I also think logically the Luke subplot is redeemed if Luke finally gets out of his funk and resumes his role as teacher again. So you don't end this movie on this confusing kick to the groin note of watching Luke disappear and not understanding why. So then you can actually get scenes of Luke performing his role as a teacher and taking the All Might role to Rey's Deku.

Instead we are left with these patchwork scenes of Carrie Fisher's Leia in Rise of Skywalker that are awkward and she has all these out of context lines that are smooshed into the scene.

 

[The Guard]

A Jedi isn't just someone that can use the Force. It's something that affects your entire way of life and Rey doesn't seem to have been taught any of that. She just comes across like a random Force user that calls herself a Jedi. I guess it's just like how she names herself after someone that once gave her one basic lesson. Just slap more things onto the character so people will like her because we can't be bothered writing some real character development.

Seems to have affected her whole way of life to me. She's immersed herself in training, uses The Force constantly, what else do you want to see her do?

Your issue seems to be that she doesn't have the exact same progression as other Jedi characters. I don't understand that.

There is no evidence that Leia and Luke only give Rey one lesson. It's implied that Leia has been training her for some time.

 

[writer0327]

Disney reshot something like 40% of Rogue One and 80% of Solo. When Carrie died they still had a year to make changes to TLJ. They should have cut Luke's death out of TLJ so he could live and they should have shot a death scene for Leia and any other necessary scenes to wrap Leia's story in TLJ.

It's just another example of Kathy and the directors' piss poor management and planning of this trilogy.

I don't know, that's a pretty tough call. I remember many of the conversations surrounding how to deal with Carrie's death and none of the answers were easy, obvious or cut and dry. Writing in her death to make it meaningful and properly honor the character would have been difficult to say the least and probably would have been met with disdain. Doing something major that maybe cuts out some of her scenes, re-arranging or changing some of the character moments they filmed would have been difficult, as you see in TROS. I personally feel recasting would have been the better option from a story standpoint, so they could possible stay true with all the ideas Colin Treverrrow had.

 

[writer0327]

Well, here's my point. The outcome is that you do need someone to train and mentor Rey. Unfortunate circumstances or not, Carrie Fisher is out of the picture. I also think logically the Luke subplot is redeemed if Luke finally gets out of his funk and resumes his role as teacher again. So you don't end this movie on this confusing kick to the groin note of watching Luke disappear and not understanding why. So then you can actually get scenes of Luke performing his role as a teacher and taking the All Might role to Rey's Deku.

Instead we are left with these patchwork scenes of Carrie Fisher's Leia in Rise of Skywalker that are awkward and she has all these out of context lines that are smooshed into the scene.

Yeah I don't like how Carrie was handled. And I don't disagree with Rey needed training by a Jedi master, but I do like the idea of Leia doing the training. I was on record back then saying they should recast Leia and I believe if done correctly, the fans would have been far more satisfied than they are now.

 

[Mani-Man]

Yeah I don't like how Carrie was handled. And I don't disagree with Rey needed training by a Jedi master, but I do like the idea of Leia doing the training. I was on record back then saying they should recast Leia and I believe if done correctly, the fans would have been far more satisfied than they are now.

Puh i dont know, recasting Leia for the final movie? I dont know if that would have pleased fans.
They were in a tough spot...but part of it was their fault.
Killing Luke in TLJ was always a choice that was more on the "bad" side.

I dont know what they "should" have done, im fine with how they did it in ROS but it was far from "perfect".
Was it even a option to use CGI and so to give her a stronger send off? or did her family say no to that?

 

[moviedoors]

It's one thing I hate so very much about Episode 9. TLJ ended with Luke proclaiming he wouldnt be the last Jedi and Rey lifting the rocks to free the survivors. That was her moment of being knighted. So from the beginning of Episode 9 she should have had her own lightsaber and she should have been sure of herself. Sure that she is a Jedi. Sure about what she needed to do. Not fretting over her powers, who she is or is supposed to be, and generally acting like an anxious mess.

Oh my god, that would have been such a better place to pick up with her character.

 

[Sorath]

Here what went wrong with the new trilogy as a whole. First let me say this; every one keeps blaming Rian Johnson for The Last Jedi. However Disney is the one who approved the script to begin with. So blaming all of the last Jedi on Rian Johnson is unfair. Me personally The Last Jedi was the better of the three films. It wasn't predictable and it actually had something to say unlike Force Awakens and Rise of the Skywalker. I won't get in break down Last Jedi why I loved it and why I felt it had far more to say then the other two films as most of you wont agree with me any way.

As a whole the films didn't mesh well at all with one another. This again is not all on Rian Johnson this is on Disney. In fact I lay it more on Disney then Rian as Disney approved the script to begin with. This is where the problem comes in. They where just making it up as they went along. So Rian wrote the script with very if any knowledge of where the film was head. That's not on him that's Disney fault. Disney should have sat down and had all three scripts done before they even started filming the first movie.

The other problem is expectations. Fans have expectations as to what they expect from the films when it has the original characters. This almost makes it hard to write a new trilogy because it becomes a tight rope. If you cater to much to fan base they will hate it. If you don't cater enough to fan base they will hate it. So it made writing the films very, very challenging.

To me Lucas was right in fact that their was no reason to continue the Skywalker saga. That story line was always the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. They story has been told and their was no reason to carry it any further. Disney would been better off doing an Old Republic movie or a movie set way in future that had nothing to do with Skywalkers. This would have given them almost a clean slate to work with. They wouldn't have had the same baggage hanging over it.

Either way the new trilogy will be just has heavily debated as to whether it was good as the prequels. They too didn't live up to the other original trilogy. I think had Disney just wrote the scripts back to back before they even started filming and had all their ducks in a row the trilogy would been far better then they where.

You guys can blame Rian Johnson but at the end of the day it's not on him. It's on Disney as nothing can be done with out their approval. Disney screwed the pooch on this one far more then Rian Johnson did. The blame falls squarely on them not on Rian Johnson.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

When Mark Hammill, Luke Skywalker himself, is telling you to your face on set that he disagrees with your characterisation of Luke, and you just ignore him and plough on anyway, you deserve to get criticised for it and blamed. So yeah, Johnson gets plenty of blame for me. He has pretty much made me indifferent on the Star Wars universe, something I never thought I could be.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

I wasn't sure where else to share this, but I appreciate Georg's take on this whole mess.

 

[herolee10]

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Seems to have affected her whole way of life to me. She's immersed herself in training, uses The Force constantly, what else do you want to see her do?

Your issue seems to be that she doesn't have the exact same progression as other Jedi characters. I don't understand that.

There is no evidence that Leia and Luke only give Rey one lesson. It's implied that Leia has been training her for some time.

I'd like her to actually have some proper personality progression. Rey just is so much the same character that just progresses in power.

No, my issue is that she displays nothing of the Jedi traits except the power, which is not the important part. Those that treat that as the one important part are dark side users.

Leia isn't named Skywalker.

 

[Marvolo]

When Mark Hammill, Luke Skywalker himself, is telling you to your face on set that he disagrees with your characterisation of Luke, and you just ignore him and plough on anyway, you deserve to get criticised for it and blamed. So yeah, Johnson gets plenty of blame for me. He has pretty much made me indifferent on the Star Wars universe, something I never thought I could be.

Mark Hamill isnt the gatekeeper of Luke Skywalker. There have been many writers and 5 different directors that have told stories involving Luke Skywalke . His ideas for Luke in the ST were pretty damn awful and amounted to Luke just coming in and wrecking the First Order like some superhero. What Rian did was much more human and compelling.

And Rian was the director and script writer and while he can listen to his actors he is under no obligation to let his actors do whatever they want with the characters they are portraying. It also isnt a director's primary concern to create a story that allows the actors to have the most fun on set. Maximizing actors' fun isnt and shouldnt be a director's or a writer's primary concern.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Mark Hamill isnt the gatekeeper of Luke Skywalker. There have been many writers and 5 different directors that have told stories involving Luke Skywalke . His ideas for Luke in the ST were pretty damn awful and amounted to Luke just coming in and wrecking the First Order like some superhero. What Rian did was much more human and compelling.

And Rian was the director and script writer and while he can listen to his actors he is under no obligation to let his actors do whatever they want with the characters they are portraying. It also isnt a director's primary concern to create a story that allows the actors to have the most fun on set. Maximizing actors' fun isnt and shouldnt be a director's or a writer's primary concern.

I agree with most of your 2nd paragraph. But at least consider Hamills points. There is a reason lots of people hate what was done to Luke in TLJ and blame TLJ and Johnson for messing the trilogy up. That’s because he made controversial choices just for the sake of it to subvert expectations. Again, he takes plenty of blame.

 

[Yellow Cyclone]

When Mark Hammill, Luke Skywalker himself, is telling you to your face on set that he disagrees with your characterisation of Luke, and you just ignore him and plough on anyway, you deserve to get criticised for it and blamed. So yeah, Johnson gets plenty of blame for me. He has pretty much made me indifferent on the Star Wars universe, something I never thought I could be.

i'm going with this, i've been a star wars fan since i saw them the first time, like what? 3? 4 generations of fans now? TLJ is so anti-star wars in concept it just completely extinguished the love i had for it. mandalorian is good and i do like it, but the movies were always the crown jewel of the franchise of course, and the ST is nothing but a lesson in missed opportunities and what NOT to do, which is what a movie never should be, and retroactively ruins the PT/OT.

i still can't believe they didn't have a concrete plan for 3 movies in a trilogy and feige is across the hall with 20 movies lmao

 

[TheVileOne]

I wasn't sure where else to share this, but I appreciate Georg's take on this whole mess.

George Rockall-Schmidt has a pretty good channel and does good videos. This was a fairly level headed take. And while it is critical, he's not all RAGE FIRE KATHLEEN KENNEDY NERD RAGE!

I think the fatigue points he made are interesting ones.

But yeah, the pacing and editing of Rise of Skywalker are all wrong.

The crawl for the movie is bad, and the scene after the crawl is bad. Everything just happens so fast. First Kylo Ren is on a planet then he's suddenly on another planet. It was a jarring transition. Nothing settled in. The crawl right off the bat reveals that Palpatine is back. And we never find out how or why. It's just, hey he's back. Don't think about it none. You can't just do that. It's bad writing and storytelling.

Just for example, Kylo is on Mustafar in that opening scene. Are you ****ing kidding me? If he's on Mustafar, shouldn't we actually see him wandering through Vader's castle and getting a sense of that?

Also why is the heir of Darth Vader fighting Darth Vader loyalists? That makes no sense.

The fact that he's on Mustafar is huge, but there is literally no way to know that planet is Mustafar from watching the movie. That's TERRIBLE storytelling. The crawl could've set up how Ren is on his way to Mustafar to retrieve a rare artifact or something. Or at least give us some exposition items about why the Darth Vader loyalists are protecting this artifact from Kylo Ren and don't want him to have it.


Also, just FYI, I thought the opening scene in Force Awakens at the time worked great. I think they built it up very well and it was masterfully shot.

 

[jolldan]

One scene I never even thought about but now feels like absolute must that we should have got is one between Kylo & Chewie.

I mean think about it Han's son & Han's best friend. It stands to reason that those two would have been super close think it would have maybe gave some of chewie's scenes more weight rather than it just being a case of him screaming every time they reveal a member of the original trilogy is dead.

 

[writer0327]

i still can't believe they didn't have a concrete plan for 3 movies in a trilogy and feige is across the hall with 20 movies lmao

I agree, it was 100% reckless to go into this without a plan. The only thing I can think of in trying to understand this decision is they were maybe trying to capture the creative magic of filmmakers doing things on the fly....maybe. The OT, despite all of Lucas's claims, wasn't concretely planned out from beginning to end at all. They were changing things all along the way, which is why we have to look at certain moments in the saga from "a certain point of view". However, they were constructing the saga from scratch, far different circumstances from 40 years later standing on top of a mega franchise with millions of fans and billions of dollars at stake.

Still, I think there's something to be said for them not deciding to crank out studio films like Marvel does. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Marvel films for what they are, but they generally follow a formula, one that works very well. I'd like to believe that LFL and the SW franchise, in the spirit of the greatest independent filmmaker of all time George Lucas, wouldn't succumb to copy/paste filmmaking, ala Kaminoans making clone troopers.

 

[Patrick77]

These movies are formulaic to the core. There's very little that's innovative about them.

The Last Jedi does subvert some tropes, and the character work digs a little deeper than usual, at least with Luke. But that movie is also the most backward-looking of them all in many respects. Luke is (surprise!) the main character again, and most of the important plot points are call backs to earlier movies.

TFA, Rogue One, Solo, TROS... The problem isn't that they are too innovative. It's the opposite. These movies don't compare favorably with what Marvel Studios has done at all in that respect.

If anything, Marvel's movies keep shocking the industry as a whole precisely because they innovate all the time. They just do it in a way that builds the audience and expands the scope of their universe, rather than making it feel like nothing in Star Wars matters except the original characters, and maybe not even that.

The equivalent would be Marvel Studios focusing on Iron Man, Cap and Thor being lame B-listers who barely deserve a movie, while also never making movies like Black Panther or Captain Marvel.

Whatever. It's their money. They don't share it with me anyway

But, on some level, I have to ask: what are you doing?

 

[Yellow Cyclone]

I agree, it was 100% reckless to go into this without a plan. The only thing I can think of in trying to understand this decision is they were maybe trying to capture the creative magic of filmmakers doing things on the fly....maybe. The OT, despite all of Lucas's claims, wasn't concretely planned out from beginning to end at all. They were changing things all along the way, which is why we have to look at certain moments in the saga from "a certain point of view". However, they were constructing the saga from scratch, far different circumstances from 40 years later standing on top of a mega franchise with millions of fans and billions of dollars at stake.

Still, I think there's something to be said for them not deciding to crank out studio films like Marvel does. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Marvel films for what they are, but they generally follow a formula, one that works very well. I'd like to believe that LFL and the SW franchise, in the spirit of the greatest independent filmmaker of all time George Lucas, wouldn't succumb to copy/paste filmmaking, ala Kaminoans making clone troopers.

i mean, they did crank out studio films though? just because the mainline episodes were every other year, they had a star wars film every year. and i couldn't think of a single original shot/sequence in all of them. everything was a rip/"homage" to the OT. even rian's film had the falcon go into underground/cave with the RoTJ/endor battle music playing. absolutely uninspired across the board

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[TheVileOne]

IMO, I'd say Double Toasted was mostly spot on here. This is a bad movie, badly written with some fun moments and nostalgic moments. Pretty much a good way to sum it up.

 

[jolldan]

Not sure if it was just me but one reason I kind of would have preferred the Rey being a clone instead of a Palpatine was the whole having to come to terms with Palpatine getting jiggy with someone.

Maybe its just me but this really through me and just didn't sit right. Like even though Vader was a bad guy the whole trilogy was about how he used to be a good guy so you can reason him having previously been a good man when he had children but Palpatine having kids just doesn't feel right to me. Feel like someone that evil should be out stealing or killing kids not making them.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

The more I think about it, the biggest problem is its all just reactionary filmmaking at it's worst. It's course correction after course correction with no real desire to push the IP forward creativity. Here's some **** you nerds are familiar with now go out and buy merch, you ****ing man children. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic on Disney's part.

 

[Mani-Man]

Just for example, Kylo is on Mustafar in that opening scene. Are you ****ing kidding me? If he's on Mustafar, shouldn't we actually see him wandering through Vader's castle and getting a sense of that?

Also why is the heir of Darth Vader fighting Darth Vader loyalists? That makes no sense.

The fact that he's on Mustafar is huge, but there is literally no way to know that planet is Mustafar from watching the movie. That's TERRIBLE storytelling. The crawl could've set up how Ren is on his way to Mustafar to retrieve a rare artifact or something. Or at least give us some exposition items about why the Darth Vader loyalists are protecting this artifact from Kylo Ren and don't want him to have it.

I honestly only noticed the Mustafar part after the movie, when i started to digest the movie.
And it made me really upset.
You have Vader being such a huge influence for Kylo and all...but then they dont care for anything with substance when he is on Mustafar...the place where his Grandfather lived?
You could have done so much with that, could have given the character so much.

Kylo on mustafar is a genius idea considering he idolized Vader...but in the end it was just a "blink and you miss it" scene.
So important for the character but the movie made it look like he is at some random planet getting the artifact.

Not sure if it was just me but one reason I kind of would have preferred the Rey being a clone instead of a Palpatine was the whole having to come to terms with Palpatine getting jiggy with someone.

Maybe its just me but this really through me and just didn't sit right. Like even though Vader was a bad guy the whole trilogy was about how he used to be a good guy so you can reason him having previously been a good man when he had children but Palpatine having kids just doesn't feel right to me. Feel like someone that evil should be out stealing or killing kids not making them.

Kind of yeah...its a bit strange.
Can live with it but the whole thing was a bit sloppy to me.
The reveal that he had a child and so on just looks way too convenient for me and feels too forced.

 

[Donner]

Another issue I had with the ending is having Luke and Leia's force ghosts appear and no one else's. Chris Terrio said it's because he didn't want other people to overshadow the twins (which is absolute BS by the way). Luke and Leia got their cathardic moment in TLJ and honestly, trying to spin that Leia would rather be with Luke than her own ****ing son is crap. It just further reinforces the idea that Han and Leia swapped out their problem child for the golden one in Rey. The ending should have had all the Skywalker force ghosts or none of them. The fan service to Luke and Leia is too much.