Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Symbiotica]

When fans decide to take those criticisms personally and villify critics like myself, that's when they become the target of my anger.

It never ceases to amaze me how personally 98% of fans take insults to their favorite creators: to insult the creator is to insult the honor of the fan's mother, or something. It's ridiculous. This is why people don't take our complaints seriously; immature behavior.

Okay, back to what you said about villain origins:
I think it's important to see at least a brief glimpse of background or the catalyst for an important or remarkable villain launching his new career. I think it's reasonable to have Doc Ock shown working his magic before it all blows up in his face and he becomes a cyborg. But I'm not going to have him be a personal aquaintance of Peter Parker or in any way portrayed as a good person at any time.

I enjoyed seeing GG's and Ock's origins. I'm just not sure if we need to see that every single time. Would Spidey never look up and see the Vulture swooping down on him out of the blue? Bah, he's not going to have the luxury of knowing his enemy every time - sometimes they should just SHOW UP. We can do flash-backs later, maybe.

Electro is someone I would put in a movie only as a cinematic fight villain, not as a high-concept/master plan villain.

O no, I don't think he's the master-planner type at all: we have Ock for that. Electro is far from a brilliant guy. In fact it would tick me off to see that, like I was ticked to see Ock telling Peter to "feed her poetry." WHAT?! Ock lives in the lab, he's not quoting *poetry* at women. What women!? Please! Self-absorbed. So yes, there I agree. Your scenario for his origin is good.

[and what's all this about Doom not being from Latveria in the FF movie?! God almighty... now I don't want to see it. why must this incessant tinkering with stuff go on?!]

It does sound silly, and it would purposely be, but I reject any attempts to try and make Electro anything other than silly yet dangerous (Ultimate Spider-Man).

There we must disagree: I think he should grow in power as the film progresses, which is true to the comics. But although he may be powerful, super-smart is not really his forte. I don't want to see him as a total idiot, but he's not a genius.

I'd be sure to put at least a few grateful civilians in my ideal entire movie series (which would go to like six films), but for the most part what we see is plenty of "He stinks and I don't like him" reactions instead of "He looks out for the people." No post-9/11 New York consolation hand-holding in my series, and no American flags waving during the finale, dammit. That's Captain America and Avengers territory.

They've have been kicking him while he was down, not passing him around like he's the Holy Grail or something! And they'd be digging for their picture-phones. Gah, what a horrible scene. This is why "family friendly" rankles me - we get that kind of sappy stuff.

That said, what you people are saying about Iron Man is scaring me, and I'm hardly a huge IM fan. Sounds... awful.

 

[Symbiotica]

This is your safe haven...we'll leave you guys alone....However I may set up a thread to show you how Hollywood works....you guys pitch your Ideas and I play Joe Superproducer......

Oh, I know..... [sigh] they just wreck everything. I once read an extremely funny article in Fangoria by David Schow, describing his experiences scripting Friday the 13th pt.3, or one of those sequels, anyways. He went through every single cool thing they had in the script, and how it was discarded as "too expensive" by the bigwigs. Every single good idea got ripped to shreds; had it been done correctly the film would have been excellent.

I'll never understand buying a good property and then completely gutting it.

I remember how thrilled I was that Clive Barker was going to direct "Lord of Illusions" himself, and then what we got bore NO RESEMBLANCE to the excellent story it was based on. None. What the Hell....? As a huge Barker fan I have found most of his films so disappointing....

And now Doom is no longer Latverian. It makes you question the entire meaning of life! Well almost, LOL

 

[roach]

Oh, I know..... [sigh] they just wreck everything. I once read an extremely funny article in Fangoria by David Schow, describing his experiences scripting Friday the 13th pt.3, or one of those sequels, anyways. He went through every single cool thing they had in the script, and how it was discarded as "too expensive" by the bigwigs. Every single good idea got ripped to shreds; had it been done correctly the film would have been excellent.

I'll never understand buying a good property and then completely gutting it.

I remember how thrilled I was that Clive Barker was going to direct "Lord of Illusions" himself, and then what we got bore NO RESEMBLANCE to the excellent story it was based on. None. What the Hell....? As a huge Barker fan I have found most of his films so disappointing....

And now Doom is no longer Latverian. It makes you question the entire meaning of life! Well almost, LOL

oh Doom was Latverian he just wasnt the Latverian dictator we have known since forever

 

[Cullen]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Meant to answer this post when I first saw it, but life up and smacked me in the face.

Still looking for a job that'll help pay for those meds you so desperately need, eh, Cullen?

Yes. I mean NO! NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST!

Well, what you've done-- directly or indirectly-- is challenge my idea, which is good. That's what we should be doing. Here's my defense:

The goal here is to be strike the best balance of faithfullness, general entertainment value and artistic quality as possible in a superhero adaptation, while also giving some consideration as to marketing value with the so-called "general audience." I'm not going to put a lot of time into explaining how my ideas on Spider-Man will stack up against the expectations of the general audience because I'm already convinced that Spider-Man done properly is the most likely out of all the superhero frachises to sit well with both fans and casual viewers.

Agreed across the board. This should be the case in any form of adaptation, but you know that. Everyone knows that.

Except 90% of Hollywood. And 90% of the 10% who do know that aren't making films...

(percentages pulled out of the air by cullen makes crap up inc. not our fault if their wrong.)

First of all, let me say that I have indeed thought ahead and taken the option of several films into account; in fact, that's the only way I have thought about it.
The reason I want to present the villains line-up the way I've chosen is not only to be faithful to the comics. I believe that faithfulness to the Spider-Man continuity is the best bet for a story, because I truly believe it was brilliantly done back in the day.
The thing about Doc Ock and the Green Goblin showing up in the first two movies is that Ock was definitely not a shadowy behind-the-scener (new term coined, and I want a quarter every time someone else uses it; cash and checks accepted) in the beginning, and the Green Goblin isn't a huge, personal threat to Peter Parker (as opposed to just Spider-Man during the workday) until the end of the second movie, where he finds out Peter's identity and then loses his memory and becomes a ticking time-bomb that Peter has to see every once in a while (since he's a family friend at this point). Dr. Octavius gained his new lease on life and fought Spider-Man twice in the course of one issue. I believe the newly created war between Spider-Man and Dr. Octopus can be stretched out to several days or weeks, and it isn't intended to be something hideously sinister as it would be with someone who had a real chance at hurting Spider-Man where it counts (like the Goblin will, later). He gets his new power, he schools Spider-Man in front of God and everybody, he moves on with the intention of proving his badassery (25 cents per use) to the world and making money at the same time, Spider-Man messes everything up and proves himself a threat to Ock, and then there's the showdown that changes Spider-Man's life (because it results in the breakup of Peter and Betty, which teaches Parker yet another lesson in being a superhuman with a conscience that won't quit).

All in all very reasonable. My out look, however, has been hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I would think making three quality films in a row on a single subject would be pushing my luck. Not because I couldn't do it (if I used that sort of thinking, I wouldn't be doing this sort of exercise) but because of all the crap that sometimes goes on behind the scenes at Hollywood.

You mentioned that there should be a second-stringer at first, such as the Vulture. I don't know if the Vulture should be described as such (as a non-agenda villain-- someone whose agenda lies with personal revenge and conventional robbery crimes, as opposed to gathering massive power or screwing with people's lives long-term-- and an independent operative, he's A-list, but that whole category is generally less dangerous and scary than an agenda villain like Kingpin and what the Green Goblin later became. The Vulture is the probably the most visually impressive villain in Spider-Man's rogue's gallery when it comes to a cinematic flight (which we've never seen before, but if you have an imagination, you can probably see it in your mind's eye; imagine an aerial battle that includes close-up shots of Spider-Man trailing behind the Vulture on a webline as he flies at top-speed for extended distances), and he isn't the type of villain I personally would choose as the "main villain" of the movie, only because I prefer to use mastermind types like the Green Goblin and Doc Ock or characters that have complex relationships with each other (Kraven and the Chameleon; Spencer Smythe, JJJ and the Scorpion) as the main attraction that spans the entire film. The Vulture is not to be taken lightly, but I personally would use him in a one-time fight (not that he couldn't come back in a later movie for another round, just not more than one in this film) either before Dr. Octopus or in-between fights with Ock.

I like the Vulture a great deal, don't get me wrong, but he never was in the same sort of league as Ock or the Goblin. Ock tends to be city threatening event-unto-himself, while Goblin has a Moriarity vibe to him. He's more of a casual enemy rather than the full scale nemesis the other two are.

And while he'd be good in a one scene fight (with maybe appearances later)... I think that's underusing him. I can think of three scenes I'd like to see: The Vulture dropping Spider-man in the water tank (from his first appearance, of course), The Vulture dropping Spidey from a great height, and the finale be their battle through the Daily Bugle (his second appearance, needless to say).

Now that would be spectacular.

(As for Ock working in the shadows, I have two words for you: Master Planner. Great story.)

The way I envision Adrian Toomes in a movie is having him be an elderly but spry old curmudgeon who just got cheated in some serious way by his partner in a company that produces cutting-edge, high-tech machinery. He himself is a brilliant inventor who hasn't been completely forthcoming about what he's capable of or has been building on his own time. Another major theme of this movie series, along with the essentail "power and responsibility" theme, is that of the wonders and dangers of technology, which actually ties into the main theme. Spider-Man was created entirely by accident by technology gone awry, as was Dr. Octopus and the Lizard (if he can be placed in a later movie, probably the one with Kraven), but the Vulture, the Green Goblin, the Shocker, Spencer Smythe, Farley Stillwell (hired by J. Jonah Jameson to biologically alter and cybernetically accessorize MacDonald Gargan) Sergei Kravinov, and the Chameleon all use their technology exactly as intended but with catastrophic results.
Anywa, after very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed (basically like how that banker guy dismissed Dr. Doom In Name Only in "Foxtastic Four"), he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit (it would actually look at least vaguely similar to Movie!Goblin's costume in "Spider-Man") complete with collapsable, flexible wings and a (mostly) noise-less flight pack. Here's where a little bit of "realism" is needed: he needs to at the very least wear eye goggles (for obvious reasons), and I think those should be integrated into a helmet-type thing that doesn't hide his entire face and looks something like a combination of the scalp-covering helmet that Black Drago (Vulture II) wore back in the day and the head piece that didn't offer the least bit of real protection that the Vulture wore in the 90's when he figured out how to be young again. This would have a beak-like look in the front, and he should probably also have some kind of transparent mouth guard, maybe even with a voice amplifier so he can shout orders to the people he's robbing and threats to the people he's getting revenge on, and most importantly (for the purposes of the movie), so he can be heard shouting curses (not like R-rated curses, just phrases that are curses in the literal sense) at Spider-Man while they're fighting in the air and moving at high speeds. The helmet should include audio-enhancing equipment and the goggles should have magnifying features so he can spot his prey from far away. It would take less than 5 seconds to impart this information to the audience and no words would have to be uttered or read. Imagination, people. Use it.

I like most of this (especially the theme.) Personally, though, I'd just use the goggle idea and keep the Vulture's costume looking like Ditko. But that's just me.

Actually, I think it would be best to have the Vulture fight before Ock, because Spider-Man taking on the Vulture is the basis for Peter Parker beginning his relationships with the Bugle staff (Jameson, Robertson and Betty Brant in particular), and it would be best if Spider-Man went into his first fight with Ock feeling very confident. Taking down the Vulture is no easy task, so it makes perfect sense that Spider-Man wouldn't think much of a stationary villain who just woke up out of a coma confined in a smaller space like a hospital interior. And that's why it's so poignant when Doc makes Spidey his b1tch during their first battle. He learns not to underestimate Octavius right then and there. The more I think about all this, the more I see "learning" as a main theme of the franchise, because it always seems Spidey is learning something from each battle and life event that makes him more careful in the future.

Part of me wants, in my movies, to have Ock appear in the second film, punk Peter, then vanish from the series until, say, the fourth film. Don't ask me why; it just seems right some how.

Anyway, another main reason why I feel it's fine to bring out the big guns in the first few movies is because I don't plan to get rid of them in their debut films.

I agree with that. I don't see the need to kill any of the villians save Goblin. Although, once again, Ock has proven most indesctructable in the past, so you probably could kill him at least once, then bring him back...

Doc Ock debuts in movie #1 and comes back in movie #3 to do something horrible (even if unintentionally, or should I say "serendipitously"). The Green Goblin debuts in movie #2, looms in the background of movie #3 as he's supposed to lie dormant in the mind of the seemingly healthy Norman Osborn, and comes back in full force in movie #4, doing something horrible to Peter (very much on purpose) and getting killed in the end. Throughout all of this are Peter's troubles with school, work, girls, family, etc. and several battles with smaller-scale villains like Electro (again, an A-list villain by himself, but a short-sighted thug compared with the visonaries and masterminds that seem to cause the real damage in Peter's life), the Shocker (someone who seems like a joke now, but was a serious powerhouse who schooled Spider-Man soundly in his first appearance), etc. The point is to balance all of these elements to maintain both a cinematic beginning/middle/end structure but also have it be a continuous saga at the same time. It is very true that a cartoon series would be more appropriate for a faithful adaptation of Spider-Man (or any other hero property), but I honestly believe it could be done in film. Spider-Man out of all other heroes could be done faithfully on film in a long-running movie franchise (I'm thinking 6 films, beginning with the origin and Dr. Octopus and ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson).

Y' had me right up until the "ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson". But nopers, can't see it. Why would you want to end your series on multiple down notes?

(I've mentioned my hatred of M.J., but I also don't care for Venom. His first appearance was pitch perfect, but after that he sunk damn quick. I understand that I'm in the minority on this, and that's cool. I will add one cavet, and this applies to both characters, I think they both had and have potential for something special. It's just that I don't think that's been reached.)

On the subject of films v. series, it's not that I don't think it can be done that it can be done on film. I just think some stories, such as the "The Night Mary Jane...", er, "The Night Gwen Stacy Died", would have more resonance as a part of a series. More time to flesh out the characters, to grow attached to them, to miss them when they're gone. An example straight off the top of my head would be the deaths of Jenny Calander and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer

I find it much more difficult to dream up economically viable, well-organized movie plots in a long-running series for the Batman, X-Men, Fantastic Four and Hulk, and I haven't even put much thought into the Avengers, yet (which is fine, because I don't have as much familiarity with that character property as with the others).

I can understand you having problems with all of the characters you've listed except for Batman. Batman should be easier than Spider-man. Very few of his foes have superpowers and his actions would rarely need CGI, unlike the wallcrawler. He's the one I'd have the least problems making movies about. ('Course as my Batman knowledge stems mainly from the cartoon series, the T.V. Series, and the four or five comics I've had with him in it, I might be missing something...)

While I personally wouldn't start a Spider-Man movie franchise off in the middle of the action as with a Greek epic (I know what "in medias res" means, too, Mr. Smartypants ), I wouldn't drag out the non-action beginning content like they did in the existing Spider-Man movie.

I can never be quite sure what's common knowledge and what isn't. I'm quite likely to think everyone knows just what I'm talking about. I tend to confuse a lot of people that way.

(And in a wide variety of other ways... But that's a different subj... ZZZZZZZ)

For one thing, all that "all about a girl" crap wouldn't be there. There would be establishing content which would show how Peter relates to his teachers (very briefly), Flash Thompson and Liz Allen (the girl he likes but doesn't go all mushy over, especially since she doesn't just ignore him, she's outright rejected him before and has taken part in the mocking Peter experiences daily) and the school body in general. The point is to fill all of that time up with interesting, entertaining, snappy dialogue that keeps the viewer laughing and the movie coasting at reasonable speed.

Which is as it should be. The movie should be a cross between a forties detective movie like The Thin Man and a high voltage Kung Fu flick. Among other things.

*stops car, checks map*
Am I still on topic? Maybe I should ask for directions.

Your thread, man. You're on topic if you say you're on topic.

And on that note I close. I tire, and there are other things I should be doing, as enjoyable as this is. I realize you have more to say on the Vulture later on, and I hope to get to it soon, as well as read any comments you have on this post.

Until then...

 

[Herr Logan]

It never ceases to amaze me how personally 98% of fans take insults to their favorite creators: to insult the creator is to insult the honor of the fan's mother, or something. It's ridiculous. This is why people don't take our complaints seriously; immature behavior.

I enjoyed seeing GG's and Ock's origins. I'm just not sure if we need to see that every single time. Would Spidey never look up and see the Vulture swooping down on him out of the blue? Bah, he's not going to have the luxury of knowing his enemy every time - sometimes they should just SHOW UP. We can do flash-backs later, maybe.

I didn't intend to have Spider-Man see the Vulture's origin, or be familiar with Adrian Toomes at all before he sees the Bugle offer mucho cash (at least by Jonah's definition) for pictures of the winged terror who's stealing the city's money and threatening one of its most prominent citizens (I've decided I want his shady business partner to be Norman Osborn and therefore the Vulture's revenge can't actually happen; I'm in the process of writing up another long-winded batch of explanation in response to our friend the Green Goblin's post in which I'll explain why the Vulture and Osborn should be connected in this way). There would only be about two minutes of content involving Toomes before he's in the sky and on the hunt. The hunt lasts mere seconds, because something (I'll have to figure this out) abruptly causes the Vulture to abandon it. Then a very brief montage showing the Vulture on a crime spree intermixed with introductory scenes of the Daily Bugle staff and Peter getting his photography equipment ready for action. Then a few minutes of all-out Spidey/Vulture action. All in all, Adrian Toomes will not take a lot of time in the movie, but I believe having a lightning-quick origin scene before he dons the suit would benefit the entire story (all six or whatever movies) in both profound and subtle ways, which I'll try to sum up briefly:
The threat of the Vulture serves to further solidify the sci-fi theme of the franchise, establish what Spider-Man is capable of (Vultchy is his first supervillain), introduce the Daily Bugle and get Peter Parker working there, and to establish Norman Osborn's unethical behavior as well as one of many reasons he's becoming psychologically unstable (becoming paranoid and feeling vulnerable, and this is in addition to Octavius raiding his warehouses later on... so by the time we see Osborn in the second movie-- where ven more distressing stuff will occur-- he's close to a nervous wreck).
Again, Peter has nothing to do with Toomes directly, and there's no sap-factor at all. Just an old curmudgeonly buzzard getting (justifiably) pissed off and instantly becoming one of the most visually exciting supervillains ever.

O no, I don't think he's the master-planner type at all: we have Ock for that. Electro is far from a brilliant guy. In fact it would tick me off to see that, like I was ticked to see Ock telling Peter to "feed her poetry." WHAT?! Ock lives in the lab, he's not quoting *poetry* at women. What women!? Please! Self-absorbed. So yes, there I agree. Your scenario for his origin is good.

[and what's all this about Doom not being from Latveria in the FF movie?! God almighty... now I don't want to see it. why must this incessant tinkering with stuff go on?!]

Exactly. Nothing like that would ever happen under my watch. Octavius in my movie idea would be just as he is in the comics, with arguably just a little more emphasis on his charming, sociopathic demeanor when it's appropriate. No wife, no love for humanity, no redemption. Just Dr. Octopus the way we like him.
And don't get me started on Dr. Doom. They might have to send me away for three more weeks.

There we must disagree: I think he should grow in power as the film progresses, which is true to the comics. But although he may be powerful, super-smart is not really his forte. I don't want to see him as a total idiot, but he's not a genius.

My own idea does not include Electro as a long-lasting villain. He'd be another flashy fight for Spider-Man (but done faithfully and respectfully, every step of the way), and I haven't yet imagined that this sequence would have nearly as much relevance and impact to the overall story as the Vulture fight. The one thing that springs to mind is that it can teach Spider-Man that it is possible for normal humans to become immensely powerful adversaries through a complete accident and not the result of tampering with technology such as the Vulture, Dr. Octopus, and the Green Goblin, and later on the Shocker, the Lizard, the Chameleon, Kraven the Hunter, Spencer Smythe and the Scorpion. I planned to have Venom at the end, but he's not a tech-villain either, since it would be the real Venom (as opposed to Ultimate Venom) who knows next to nothing about lab science.
The Spider-Man saga here would be a series of lessons, the biggest ones coming from Uncle Ben, Betty Brant, the Green Goblin and Venom.

Feel free to share your own thoughts on a movie version of Electro, or anything else for that matter.

They've have been kicking him while he was down, not passing him around like he's the Holy Grail or something! And they'd be digging for their picture-phones. Gah, what a horrible scene. This is why "family friendly" rankles me - we get that kind of sappy stuff.

Seriously... I mean, I'd definitely give the movies a moralistic undertone (because you have to, it's Spider-Man!) and a cap on how dark or violent it can get (basically, the line is drawn right between Venom as a Spider-Man villain and Venom as a gorey Lethal Protector, and there's absolutely no room for Carnage... the latter two concepts do, however, belong in a Venom spinoff series), but there's no excuse for this maudlin crap. No poetry-reading, wife-having Doc Ock... no Spider-Man beloved by all New Yorkers... no working-class heroes standing up to superpowered sociopaths. They should be only as sentimental as Stan Lee's stories were, and when those got overly maudlin, Stan outright said it was and moved on. Tongue-in-cheek is the name of the game, not lovey-dovey.

That said, what you people are saying about Iron Man is scaring me, and I'm hardly a huge IM fan. Sounds... awful.

Same here. It's digusting. I'm proud of my little list of nicknames for Iron Man's nemesis, though.

 

[bluejake01]

Herr Logan, what are you "whining" about now you "nitpicking" "fanboy" (fanboy is meant in a deragotory manner) ?

 

[Herr Logan]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Meant to answer this post when I first saw it, but life up and smacked me in the face.

Yes. I mean NO! NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST!

Well get on it, man! Get help while you you're still-- I mean, while we're still young!!

I like the Vulture a great deal, don't get me wrong, but he never was in the same sort of league as Ock or the Goblin. Ock tends to be city threatening event-unto-himself, while Goblin has a Moriarity vibe to him. He's more of a casual enemy rather than the full scale nemesis the other two are.

And while he'd be good in a one scene fight (with maybe appearances later)... I think that's underusing him. I can think of three scenes I'd like to see: The Vulture dropping Spider-man in the water tank (from his first appearance, of course), The Vulture dropping Spidey from a great height, and the finale be their battle through the Daily Bugle (his second appearance, needless to say).

Now that would be spectacular.

Damn right, it would. I have to keep the Vulture's screen time limited due to all the awesome Parker/Spidey/Ock content I want to cram into a long (at least 2.5 hours) but still all-too-short running time. Keep in mind, I want to maximize the use of all the important supporting characters like Aunt May, J. Jonah Jameson, Joe Robertson, Betty Brant, Flash Thompson and Liz Allen. My vague estimate for how long the Vulture should be onscreen is ten minutes, but that's not set in stone (or in script, fo that matter... this is all just vague imagining that will hopefully become more and more concrete, even if it won't turn into a marketable product of any kind). I currently see the Vulture as fulfilling several important purposes for the big picture in just those few minutes. What would be ideal is if the actual execution could be done in such a way as to blow away the audience with the action and acting/dialogue and still leave them ravenously hungry for more. I don't see the Vulture coming back for another round in the first movie, and I think I'd rather not have him show up as the Vulture in the same movie as the Green Goblin (don't want them skies too crowded). While I have just a few reservations about the Vulture appearing in the same movie where Dr. Octopus comes back [I don't want it to seem like they're actually connected, and it's weird they'd both be breaking out of different prisons in the same film-- Doc Ock escaping from the Vault in Colorado and making his way back to New York, and the Vulture finding a way to break out of Riker's Island, either by cobbling together a make-shift flying machine or by... oh man, wouldn't it be something if he and Herman Schultz (the Shocker!!) worked together to get out??], I do think it would be great if he came back in movie #3. Again, if he shows up here, he serves more purposes than just being a great visual/action villain (where he could do the whole Bugle building fight with Spidey) and an excuse for Spidey to let loose with the quips (which would never be in short supply in this movie series). I just thought about how he could collaborate with Herman Schultz-- a recidivist safe-cracker with a gift for invention to rival that of Adrian Toomes-- which would set up the Shocker as an action villain for a future movie. The other thing I was thinking of was having Spider-Man see the Vulture gliding in the distance and immediately feel ill at the thought that the Green Goblin has regained the memories (both of how much of a badass he is and of Spider-Man's secret identity) he lost in movie #2 and is back in action. Oh, wait, it's the Vulture (which is a relief because he won't have to worry about Toomes stalking his loved ones, and to be honest, the Vulture is less dangerous than the Green Goblin as a villain), now meaner and more formidable than ever.

(As for Ock working in the shadows, I have two words for you: Master Planner. Great story.)

I like most of this (especially the theme.) Personally, though, I'd just use the goggle idea and keep the Vulture's costume looking like Ditko. But that's just me.

As I said somewhere in an earlier essay-- er, I mean "post"-- the Master Planner story was my idea for movie #3.

My idea for revamping the Vulture's costume was what I thought would be a reasonable concession to the "realism" junkie crowd. To be honest, I would approve of a less slightly more muted appearance of a bird of prey, with more of the technical aspect of the suit (not all, just some) made more obvious, but I wouldn't. The suit should look somewhat armored, but not too heavily. I don't think I want to make the suit an official strength-enhancing exoskeleton, but I do want Toomes to be a very strong septugenarian while he wears it. There should definitely be gauntlets on his hands, preferably with claw-like extensions. The suit color should be dark green almost all over. The goggles are necessary, for obvious reasons, and I did want to make them binocular-type instruments just so those damn reality-junkies wouldn't question why the Vulture was able to spot his prey from so very far away, and I thought a crash helmet would be appropriate, especially considering that one of the men who called himself "Vulture" in the comics saw fit to wear one. Actually, my favorite Vulture story of all time is when the real vulture broke that punk (Blackie Drago) out of prison, gave him a set of wings and then proceded to beat the living crap out of him in front of God and everybody, just to prove who the real Vulture really was. Anyway, the only other main concern with the "realism" issue is to make sure that whatever he wears around his neck (that feathery/furry collar of his) extends up far enough that it offers support and helps keep him from snapping his own neck while flying. I want it to look as close as possible to the original while making the stylish aspects into functional ones as well.

What did you have in mind when you said you wanted it to look like Ditko's design? Did you have any specific thoughts as to what the material would be made of or what the purpose of the vertical-line pattern would signify? Speak, damn you! I want your ideas!

Part of me wants, in my movies, to have Ock appear in the second film, punk Peter, then vanish from the series until, say, the fourth film. Don't ask me why; it just seems right some how.

Do you mean you would want Ock to appear in the second film after already being the main villain in the first, or to show up briefly in the second for the first time and then have a stronger presence in the fourth?

I agree with that. I don't see the need to kill any of the villians save Goblin. Although, once again, Ock has proven most indesctructable in the past, so you probably could kill him at least once, then bring him back...

I'm assuming that when you say "kill him at least once, then bring him back..." you mean have him disappear in an explosion or collapsing building or whatever, with no body being found.
I thought about going that route, and I would like that to be an option for the third movie, but I'm really in love with the possibilities inherent in having him taken into custody and imprisoned at the end of the first movie.

Y' had me right up until the "ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson". But nopers, can't see it. Why would you want to end your series on multiple down notes?

(I've mentioned my hatred of M.J., but I also don't care for Venom. His first appearance was pitch perfect, but after that he sunk damn quick. I understand that I'm in the minority on this, and that's cool. I will add one cavet, and this applies to both characters, I think they both had and have potential for something special. It's just that I don't think that's been reached.)

Venom's involvement in the final movie would play out in tune with his first appearances. I would definitely keep the Lethal Protector aspect in that I'd have it made clear that he thinks he's a hero and actually does save a few people from other criminals, but it would also be clear that he's a deluded hypocrite. Venom's vision of himself, his actual heroic deeds and the hypocrisy of it all are what make him interesting to me on a psychological level. I think he'd make a good movie villain if done properly.

In this series, Mary Jane would make a brief cameo in the first movie but wouldn't meet peter.
She'd meet Peter in the second movie (where he's in college and struggling to fit in with Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy and his old nemesis Flash Thompson) and they'd be instantly attracted to each other. Due to her being far from Peter's type at the time, Peter ends up dating Gwen instead and they fall in love by the end of the second film. Mary Jane ends up dating Harry Osborn.
Things remain pretty much the same (this is discounting all the little details and exchanges these college-age kids have than don't involve romantic attachments and brushes with villainy) throughout the third movie with MJ, but Gwen is devastated by the death of her father. Things get strained between Gwen and Peter toward the end of the third one and in the fourth one, Gwen is killed and Mary Jane is there to console Peter (and also Harry, whose father was found impaled and nearly naked in one of his warehouses).
In the fifth movie, Peter and Mary Jane are falling in love (don't worry, it wouldn't be anything as sappy as Sam Raimi's movies). By the beginning of the sixth movie, Peter is in possession of the alien symbiote and has either revealed his secret to Mary Jane or she's revealed she already knew. The symbiote is rejected by Peter as soon as he learns what it is and Brock has already been fired and humiliated (it'll be something very similar to the actual story, where Brock did many interviews with a man claiming he was the notorious serial killer plaguing the city, and Spider-Man caught the real culprit). Brock meets the symbiote, it's true love, they stalk and terrorize Spider-Man and Mary Jane, Venom gets taken down, Peter and MJ get married.
I wanted to end the series here because I think Venom is the last truly great Spider-Man villain created and that the story gets much less interesting once Peter gets married. I'd try to end it on a happy note (and I don't just mean with a wedding, I mean something hardcore Spidey fans will love).

On the subject of films v. series, it's not that I don't think it can be done that it can be done on film. I just think some stories, such as the "The Night Mary Jane...", er, "The Night Gwen Stacy Died", would have more resonance as a part of a series. More time to flesh out the characters, to grow attached to them, to miss them when they're gone. An example straight off the top of my head would be the deaths of Jenny Calander and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer

That's a good point, but I think it's worth a shot in a multi-film series. Done properly, there's a good chance the mvoie characters will be as compelling as the comics book characters.

I can understand you having problems with all of the characters you've listed except for Batman. Batman should be easier than Spider-man. Very few of his foes have superpowers and his actions would rarely need CGI, unlike the wallcrawler. He's the one I'd have the least problems making movies about. ('Course as my Batman knowledge stems mainly from the cartoon series, the T.V. Series, and the four or five comics I've had with him in it, I might be missing something...)

I think the Batman is definitely more difficult to sell to the public than Spider-Man. I'm not saying he isn't wildly popular, and I'm not saying I'd make any unreasonable (from a true fan's perspective) compromise if making a Batman movie franchise, and I have plenty of my own ideas about that as well. I'm saying that Spider-Man has elements from all film genres, and the Batman does not. The average Batman story is not a romance story, and when that comes into it, it's supposed to be pretty messed up. The average Batman story is not a comedy, even if it can be very funny. The average Batman story is dark, dirty and depressing. There's nothing wrong with that, and any decently made Batman story will hold true to this, but it's not as easy a sell to the "general," popcorn-munching, girl-dating, mind-numbed audience. I would never concede Spider-Man's brilliant mind when it comes to a story, even if pansies like Sam Raimi would. But Spider-Man's intelligence can be sold as were window dressing. The intelligence and brooding nature of the Batman is pervasive. It's not something important that supplements his winning personality. It is his personality. He's not a friendly, accessable guy. I have no problem with that, and that's how I like it, but the Batman as a person is not as appealing to most people as Spider-Man is. That's a problem many of DC's characters have, but the Batman especially, since he's the "jerk." He's the "obsessive-compulsive." He's the "stern authority figure." He's amazing, but he's not as "well-rounded" and universally appealling as Spider-Man. This is only important insofar as it should be child's play to make a proper Spider-Man movie, and yet they came light years closer with "Batman Begins" than they did with either Spider-Man movie. This is not tribalistic idiocy speaking. I've paid for hundreds of Spider-Man comics, and I only have as many Batman comics as I do (which still isn't even a decent fraction of how many Spider-Man comics I've acquired) because I feel guilty if I don't buy at least one comics when I'm reading a whole stack of unworthy comics at the store, and Marvel is rarely worth paying for anymore. One is not better than the other. One is just more widely marketable than the other. That's all.

Which is as it should be. The movie should be a cross between a forties detective movie like The Thin Man and a high voltage Kung Fu flick. Among other things.

Exactly.

Your thread, man. You're on topic if you say you're on topic.

And on that note I close. I tire, and there are other things I should be doing, as enjoyable as this is. I realize you have more to say on the Vulture later on, and I hope to get to it soon, as well as read any comments you have on this post.

Until then...

Happy reading. Hope your schedule is free. :0

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr Logan, what are you "whining" about now you "nitpicking" "fanboy" (fanboy is meant in a deragotory manner) ?

Oh, everything's fine. Let's talk *gestures into the Haven*

*lowers blinds*

Doc Ock, be a pal and make sure that door stays locked while my friend and I discuss a few things...

 

[Hunter Rider]

Oh, everything's fine. Let's talk *gestures into the Haven*

*lowers blinds*

Doc Ock, be pal and make sure that door stays locked while my friend and I discuss a few things...

I was wondering will you be including your Jack'O'Lantern/Osbourne numbered accounts idea into your series of movies ?

BTW i got no PM reply is all cool ?

 

[Herr Logan]

I was wondering will you be including your Jack'O'Lantern/Osbourne numbered accounts idea into your series of movies ?

BTW i got no PM reply is all cool ?

Check your PMs now. And talk to an administrator about lightening up on that God damn 5,000 character length limit for PMs. Makes things so much more difficult when I have edit things down in a word processing program and do word counts until it's just right...

 

[Herr Logan]

I was wondering will you be including your Jack'O'Lantern/Osbourne numbered accounts idea into your series of movies ?

I don't remember a good deal of what I wrote about that one. Did I send that to you in a PM or was in posted in a thread? If it was a PM, I don't think I have it anymore.

When they banished me, I could still use the PM function, but the limit for the entire PM box (for both Sent and Received) was brought down to 50, even though I had over a hundred already. I had to delete almost everything in order to communicate with people here for the last few weeks.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Check your PMs now. And talk to an administrator about lightening up on that God damn 5,000 character length limit for PMs. Makes things so much more difficult when I have edit things down in a word processing program and do word counts until it's just right...

Got it,I will get onto the hype's inner workings immediately

 

[Hunter Rider]

I don't remember a good deal of what I wrote about that one. Did I send that to you in a PM or was in posted in a thread? If it was a PM, I don't think I have it anymore.

When they banished me, I could still use the PM function, but the limit for the entire PM box (for both Sent and Received) was brought down to 50, even though I had over a hundred already. I had to delete almost everything in order to communicate with people here for the last few weeks.

I feel a movie called the Herrshank redemption in the works
The idea was in a thread where we were disscussing Hobgoblin after Latino review "confirmed" him and sandman as the villauns for SM-3

 

[Herr Logan]

I feel a movie called the Herrshank redemption in the works
The idea was in a thread where we were disscussing Hobgoblin after Latino review "confirmed" him and sandman as the villauns for SM-3

Dammit, I can't find that thread.

I wasn't planning on including that in my primary Spider-Man franchise idea (it was a potential idea for the existing franchise, which is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned), but if you can remind me of what the hell I said back then, we can discuss it.

 

[roach]

Here is my Captain America idea...........
Captain America:the movie
Before America entered WW2 the nazis marched all over Europe. Led by Hitler's protege The Red Skull the Axis powers seemed unstoppable. The scientist who created the Red Skull realizes that the Nazi's are evil and cant be stopped so he defects to the US and shares with them the supersoldier serum. He modifies it so that the serum doesnt give the subject the hideous disfigurement. The US plans on creating a battalion of supersoldiers. The serum is tested and they realise they need a very weak subject. Steve Rogers sees a media reel of the war in Europe and decided to enlist.Rogers is an a 4F and they decline him but he's taken into the supersoldier project. 20 weaklings are given the serum but only Rogers survives.Something in the serum makes it unable to be replicated in anyone else. Rogers goes from being one of a battalion to the only one. During a test showing to military brass a Nazi spy kills the scientist. Rogers kills him after taking a few rounds in the chest. Rogers is transfered to the O.S.S. and becomes a highly effective spysmasher her in the US. He is given the traditional costume and shield. Pearl Harbor happens and America enters the war. Cap is on the front lines. During a mission Cap saves a newsreel team which includes a young photographer named Bucky Barnes. Bucky is injured and Cap gives him a battlefield blood transfusion. Bucky survives and becomes enhanced. The military gives him armor also and makes him Cap's partner. They go to battle the Red Skull ....the warhead launches Bucky dies and cap lands in the drink.
Years later he is awoken to see how far his country has come. He is taken into custody by Shield and reintroduced to Nick Fury. He explains that the Nazis had sleeper agents in America who formed a new terror group Hydra. Hydra does something devious and Cap stops 'em and realizes that the shadowy head of Hydra is the Red Skull. Fun ensues

 

[Herr Logan]

Here is my Captain America idea...........
Captain America:the movie
Before America entered WW2 the nazis marched all over Europe. Led by Hitler's protege The Red Skull the Axis powers seemed unstoppable. The scientist who created the Red Skull realizes that the Nazi's are evil and cant be stopped so he defects to the US and shares with them the supersoldier serum. He modifies it so that the serum doesnt give the subject the hideous disfigurement. The US plans on creating a battalion of supersoldiers. The serum is tested and they realise they need a very weak subject. Steve Rogers sees a media reel of the war in Europe and decided to enlist.Rogers is an a 4F and they decline him but he's taken into the supersoldier project. 20 weaklings are given the serum but only Rogers survives.Something in the serum makes it unable to be replicated in anyone else. Rogers goes from being one of a battalion to the only one. During a test showing to military brass a Nazi spy kills the scientist. Rogers kills him after taking a few rounds in the chest. Rogers is transfered to the O.S.S. and becomes a highly effective spysmasher her in the US. He is given the traditional costume and shield. Pearl Harbor happens and America enters the war. Cap is on the front lines. During a mission Cap saves a newsreel team which includes a young photographer named Bucky Barnes. Bucky is injured and Cap gives him a battlefield blood transfusion. Bucky survives and becomes enhanced. The military gives him armor also and makes him Cap's partner. They go to battle the Red Skull ....the warhead launches Bucky dies and cap lands in the drink.
Years later he is awoken to see how far his country has come. He is taken into custody by Shield and reintroduced to Nick Fury. He explains that the Nazis had sleeper agents in America who formed a new terror group Hydra. Hydra does something devious and Cap stops 'em and realizes that the shadowy head of Hydra is the Red Skull. Fun ensues

That sounds really cool.
I especially like the idea the way you set up Bucky to be Captain America's sidekick-- how he's physically augmented through a blood transfusion and then officially sanctioned as Cap's partner.

The only thing I'm not too keen on is having the Red Skull be the head of Hydra, or at least not the only one. I personally think they should have Baron Wolfgang von Strucker and/or other classic Hydra commanders or affiliates (like Viper) in there somewhere, too. It would be cool to have von Strucker as a figurehead or a lieutenant, with the Red Skull pulling strings from behind the scenes.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Dammit, I can't find that thread.

I wasn't planning on including that in my primary Spider-Man franchise idea (it was a potential idea for the existing franchise, which is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned), but if you can remind me of what the hell I said back then, we can discuss it.

If i recall correctly in your idea,Norman Osbourne's buissness was in trouble,his competitors were getting ahead of him in the technology race and financialy oscorp was in the red,So he hired Merecenary Jason Macandale to do a spot of industrial espionage and he paid him through numbered accounts,there was no face to face meeting,
I believe also you had Norman give him the prototype Glider for use on his missions but he came up with his weapons and costume himself

 

[Herr Logan]

If i recall correctly in your idea,Norman Osbourne's buissness was in trouble,his competitors were getting ahead of him in the technology race and financialy oscorp was in the red,So he hired Merecenary Jason Macandale to do a spot of industrial espionage and he paid him through numbered accounts,there was no face to face meeting,
I believe also you had Norman give him the prototype Glider for use on his missions but he came up with his weapons and costume himself

Ah, now I remember! Thanks, Hunter.

This is the kind of thing I would definitely put in an animated series or something like that. Unless I was somehow given 9 or so Spider-Man movies to make.

 

[Herr Logan]

Thanks Herr, I agree with those "updates" as well and I do have some things to add which I'll get around to later which pertain to how they could have done the above and STILL been true to the twisted HALLOWEEN GOBLIN side of Norman Osborn as well... Look forward to your ideas.

Oh, I'm all about Norman Osborn teaching us young'uns the true meaning of Halloween! There's nothing that says he can't be wearing a ridiculous yet creepy costume that's also sufficiently armored.

Here's an idea I was toying with:
Perhaps the cheating business partner of Adrian Toomes could be Norman Osborn. This would strengthen the plausibility of the both Vulture's flight suit and the Green Goblin's glider, as some of the basic components would be developed by the same person (Toomes). In the comics, Norman Osborn framed his business partner-- Mendell Stromm-- for embezzlement and had him arrested and imprisoned. In the 90's cartoon, Osborn tried to squeeze Toomes out of the company and the Vulture came after him. Why not have both in the movie series, since Osborn possesses the same kind of behavior in two different continuities?
Maybe in the first movie, it is Osborn who betrays Toomes and then as the Vulture, Toomes attempts but doesn't actually succeed in killing Osborn. I'm not sure how I'd work all of that around the bank robberies and fight with Spider-Man, since it's very important to the story that the Vulture make his presence known to the world, disappear and reappear again with the public scared of him and the Daily Bugle demanding pictures of him. This shouldn’t at all take a large portion of the movie to show.

This leaves Norman Osborn a background character in the beginning that is almost killed by a man who flies and has his company raided by a rampaging cyborg all in the same film. Osborn is paranoid of getting a comeuppance for the wrongs he’s committed and of outside attacks on his company. In the second film, I’d keep the Goblin origin and OsCorp politics pretty much the same as they were in the actual movie. Raimi and Co. actually did a good job with a lot of the Goblin aspects. His background of (justifiable) paranoia makes him a bit unstable to begin with, and then he pulls the same crap he did on Toomes with Mendell Stromm, who is in charge of the chemical division of OsCorp (as opposed to the aeronautics division, which was headed by Adrian Toomes). When the military officers who are expecting results from Osborn shorten the deadline for the performance enhancers and make it clear they don’t like him and are prepared to give the funding to his competition, he now has a lot more pressure on him and without Stromm he may not succeed in keeping his government funding. Desperate and arrogant, uses himself as a guinea pig for the performance enhancer, thinking that not only will he keep his funding and make those smug officers eat crow, he’ll become more intelligent than Stromm and Toomes combined and won’t have to rely on such people in the future. Well, we know what happens to Osborn there.

Osborn suffers a psychotic break and develops a schizotypal disorder. He feels haunted by a terrible monster and needs to purge it from his mind. At the same time, he feels that nobody is taking him seriously and giving him the respect he damn well deserves. The military liaisons, the business competition, not even his spineless son. If they were as terrified of him as he was of his own demons, they’d respect him. Oh yes, they would.
So he starts raiding his own equipment to build his new image; something horrific and yet practical.
He digs up one of Toomes’ prototype flight suits (also dark green, but noticeably different from the more advanced suit the Vulture wore, and it doesn’t have wings, as Toomes never intended to mass-market those as part of the suit) for the foundation of his costume, and then he looks for ways to fortify it. He wraps the body trunk in Kevlar cloth (dark purple) and adds special gauntlets that discharge powerful electric blasts (the “sparkle beam” blasters-- one of OsCorp’s most advanced weapons, not even close to being legally available for distribution).
I haven’t decided for sure, but I wanted the finished Goblin Glider to be noticeably modified in appearance from whatever Toomes was developing for Osborn that serves the same purpose and/or be something that only Osborn knew was being crafted based on Toomes’ work. I want it to at least make an attempt to give Osborn a layer of insulation for when the cops start investigating the deaths of several employees at Osborn’s competition and his treacherous board of directors (those come later). In any case, Osborn prepares a turbo-jet/VTOL personal transport unit (complete with weaponry) from the various components available to him.
He needs to have special boots for this thing, because even if the boots magnetically lock into the glider, his ankles could snap if he moves the wrong way. Thus, the boots look basically like shiny, dark purple ski boots. Not only is this just an obvious safeguard against hurting his ankles while flying, but it will make him stagger and hunch over a bit during the occasional scenes where he’s off his glider and moving around on foot (like when he’s pacing around and monologuing at a tied-up Peter at the end of the second film), giving him an even creepier look.
The Goblin’s face mask would either be some kind of advanced memory material that conformed to the face and moved like a second skin (while changing the features drastically, as would film prosthetics), or it would be a full helmet that looks like that one of those really creepy concept pictures included on the DVD… God dammit!! I literally just spent hours trying to find this thing online. Screw it! If one of you people can post it, great, otherwise, go watch the DVD special features or use your imaginations or something! Grrr… I’m gonna let this chunk o’ nonsense stand on its own and continue it later, since I’ve been working on this for two days as it is. Discuss!

By the way, I did find a movie concept pic of the Green Goblin, just not a decent front-view image of the helmet I was thinking about. I’ll post it here, along with a pic of a Green Goblin/Spidey fight in which Gobby uses the sparkle beam.

 

[Head>On<Collider]

His name is actually John Proudstar... Proudstar, God dammit!!

Achem... moving on...

I think I get what you're saying, and welcome to the thread.
I wouldn't personally use John Proudstar in my X-Men movie (for which I will post my pre-constructed outline after others have chance to voice their own ideas as well as comment on the unspeakably depraved genius inherent in what I've already posted), even though I'd be using a the X-Men line-up of which he was a member (minus Thunderbird himself, Sunfire, the Banshee, and Jean Grey, and plus Kitty Pride). I would, however, have a line in it that says something along the lines of "not everyone who has served with the X-Men is still alive today, Kitty," with an immediately following shot of either pictures or more subtle-yet recognizable mementos of Thunderbird and Marvel Girl/Phoenix.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and draw a connection between what you've said here to what I've been saying about how a talented, imaginative and dedicated production team could bring almost any important aspect of a classic superhero story to the screen in an impressive way, despite the limited vision displayed by makers of the current products out there and also the apologists who defend such shortcomings. Almost nobody on this site seems to believe that. The thing to remember is that you can't properly assess a superhero movie adaptation if you're not truly looking at it as such. Using bull$hit excuses like "it's not realistic" are completely devoid of merit, but a more complex question is "is it believable?" That measurement of believability has to be from a certain general perspective. Most of these stories are in large portion some mixture of science fiction and fantasy, and any claim to the contrary is invalid. The main "realism" should concern psychological and sociological aspects, not so much science and fashion sense. And one of the most important things to remember is that there is no such thing as "there being no such thing as a person with this or that characteristic." People are incredibly diverse, or at least the interesting ones are. Nobody can tell me that it's unrealistic for an intelligent young man can't invent amazing devices with which to swing around the city and crack smart-ass jokes during potentially fatal confrontations with immensely dangeorus sociopaths. How would anyone have the authority to say that? Anyone who says such a thing is proving themselves either a liar or shamefully short-sighted, and there really is no possible way they could be correct in their statement. Either you can relate to these characters or you can't. My father couldn't relate to any superhero movie on almost any level, even thought he possesses characteristics of many of the heroes and many of the villains. Am I supposed to take that as a sign that the "general audience" couldn't relate to the same material? Anecdotal evidence, even on the scale provided by this and other similar websites, is not valid proof of anything. The only thing anecdotal evidence is good for is disproving absolute statements, and it does that every single time. Just because jaded yet easily manipulated teenagers and twenty-somethings say that there's no way that a skintight costume and cowl couldn't look good on a character like Wolverine, that doesn't make it remotely true. That reflects only on the speaker, not the verity of the subject matter. There are any number of statements about any number of aspects of these movies that are just plain wrong and are only made out of narrow-mindedness and lack of imagination. And people have the audacity to call the likes of us "negative"?

I have no idea if that rant had anything to do with what you said earlier, HOC. It's just what it made me think of, starting with your first few paragraphs.

John Proudstar, check! **writes notes**
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for making characters relatable and by your highlighted quote I can see that you agree that the only thing that really deserves the realism defense it emotional, mental issues. To me, it would be about establishing who the person is, where he/ she came from, and how her or she acts under such extreme situations that would make it all comic book worthy in the first place. Whoever we deal with, we’re most likely dealing with someone with human attributes.... I mean last I checked almost all of them speak English, so there’s gotta be some kind of common ground between them and the audience, right? So aside from whatever it would be that hold such common ground, there really doesn’t need to be that big of a deal to be realistic to the kind of level where they would go and hack up everything to the point that he/ she is rewritten altogether into a completely different person.

Take for example Taxi Driver. The whole movie leads you the audience to see Rob DeNiro’s role as a sociopathic, psychopathic stalker type, which is he is pretty much, however, at the end you see that maybe he was one as far as everybody else goes, but to the girl’s father, parents, and especially the girl herself, he was a hero. It’s a movie about a hero altogether, and I think there are some real juicy elements in that movie for any comic book film to take after.

That's what I say anyway...

 

[Hunter Rider]

This is one of the designs i think you were looking for,the DVD wouldnt let me photo cap the other design i also found another design from 2000 that ive never seen before that i thought might be of interest

 

[roach]

That sounds really cool.
I especially like the idea the way you set up Bucky to be Captain America's sidekick-- how he's physically augmented through a blood transfusion and then officially sanctioned as Cap's partner.

The only thing I'm not too keen on is having the Red Skull be the head of Hydra, or at least not the only one. I personally think they should have Baron Wolfgang von Strucker and/or other classic Hydra commanders or affiliates (like Viper) in there somewhere, too. It would be cool to have von Strucker as a figurehead or a lieutenant, with the Red Skull pulling strings from behind the scenes.

that was my quick fast in a hurry idea for the movie. Strucker would be a Lt.
I just wanted to have a better explaination for why Captain America took a minor into battle.Recently it was retconned that Bucky was 19 but it would still fit seeing as Cap is able to do all these power stunts at least the guy watching his back should be on the same level.

 

[Herr Logan]

John Proudstar, check! **writes notes**
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for making characters relatable and by your highlighted quote I can see that you agree that the only thing that really deserves the realism defense it emotional, mental issues. To me, it would be about establishing who the person is, where he/ she came from, and how her or she acts under such extreme situations that would make it all comic book worthy in the first place. Whoever we deal with, we’re most likely dealing with someone with human attributes.... I mean last I checked almost all of them speak English, so there’s gotta be some kind of common ground between them and the audience, right? So aside from whatever it would be that hold such common ground, there really doesn’t need to be that big of a deal to be realistic to the kind of level where they would go and hack up everything to the point that he/ she is rewritten altogether into a completely different person.

Take for example Taxi Driver. The whole movie leads you the audience to see Rob DeNiro’s role as a sociopathic, psychopathic stalker type, which is he is pretty much, however, at the end you see that maybe he was one as far as everybody else goes, but to the girl’s father, parents, and especially the girl herself, he was a hero. It’s a movie about a hero altogether, and I think there are some real juicy elements in that movie for any comic book film to take after.

That's what I say anyway...

Yeah, I definitely agree about the behavioral realism thing, and like I said, demanding behavioral realism doesn't in any way mena that any person or group of people could validly deny that an outlandish or unique behavior exhibited by a character isn't realistic. When Spider-Man does something you could definitely see or have seen real people do, that's a realistic and relatable portrayal. However, even though his wise-cracking in the middle of an extremely dangerous battle may or may not be relatable to the majority of the people watching, there is absolutely no viable basis for saying it isn't realistic. Peter Parker is interesting to me because he behaves (which technically means in thought as well as in act) in many ways like I do. I can't say that resonates with the majority of other people, because I'm pretty different from most people in a lot of ways, but it does appeal to me. As for the things Peter thinks and does that I can't relate to, that's no reason to label it "unmarketable." Reading and watching fiction automatically guarantees you'll most likely see something different from your own experience, and when it comes to fiction that is specifically and outright presented as stories about heroes, then it's stupid to the point of immorallity to expect the characters to be stripped of anything that makes them unique. Heroes are heroes because they're different in a good and/or notable way. Anyone who thinks Spider-Man should be stripped of his humor and outward calmness during battle is an idiot. That doesn't apply to people who were content with the changes in the movie, just to the people who actually believe that's a better alternative. Many people would consider me overly opinionated and unreasonably judgemental of other people's opinions and preferences for saying that. They're wrong. We're not talking about an undefined blank slate, we're talking about a 43 year-old character (in our years, not comic book years) whose behaviors are well defined and widely known. Either he jokes a lot, or he's not Spider-Man, period. If it's a new character that's still being formulated, then opinions by themselves carry weight. That's not the case with any of the main Marvel properties. With DC characters like the Batman, there's a lot more leeway, since he's the character out of all famous superheroes that has been through the most drastic changes throughout the years. Yes, even more drastic than the Hulk.

Anyway, before I rant even farther off-point, I'll just say that I do approve of and encourage contextual and practical changes meant to heighten the "realism" factor in adaptation movies, but only if they do not change the important aspects of the characters or mythos, and only if it has either a neutral or beneficial effect on the story (i.e. making Doc Ock's tentacles plug into his spinal column from the very beginning and having the Goblin formula specifically be a military-ordered human performance enhancer = good change; organic webshooters and sappy life-long obsession with MJ and no sense of humor = horrible change).

"Taxi Driver" was damn depressing. What character were you thinking of in a superhero movie that would be seen in the same way DeNiro's character was in that movie?

 

[Herr Logan]

This is one of the designs i think you were looking for,the DVD wouldnt let me photo cap the other design i also found another design from 2000 that ive never seen before that i thought might be of interest

Ah, thanks, Hunter.
Neither of those is the one I was thinking of, because it's pretty much front and side view shots of the mask/helmet, but these are cool frames of reference, too.

I've seen the first one before. Unfortunately, it doesn't offer a good view of the mask. My ideal suit design would be a lot simpler and less robotic looking. The suit wouldn't do a whole hell of a lot except provide basic protection from impact trauma and gunfire. Also to scare people, of course. I definitely want it to look like Kevlar/Nomex type stuff, but the less technical-looking, the better. No need for bolts and exposed circuits.

That second one is awesome, and I don't believe I've seen it before. It's pretty much the classic Goblin look, which is what I'd be going for. The windsock/skullcap on that thing looks great in the picture, but I was thinking of having that part be part of the helmet, similar to how it was in the movie and in the first pic below (except I'd want it completely smooth and not all machine-like). The mask concept photos I've been looking for had that feature as well. And I would definitely want that part to be deep dark purple like many other parts of the suit, not a green shade that somehow looks purple in a certain light (like the one in the actual movie did).
I guess the main overall problem I had with the movie mask is that it was so angular in so many places. I mean, it was even more angular than Willem Dafoe's emaciated mug! I'd be fine with the mask covering up the person's face completely as long as it looked good both in and of itself and in the context of the mythos. It should be something you'd say is silly to wear when not at a costume party, but very frightening when in the context of an attack.

The mask should change the wearer's voice, too. I think Willem Dafoe was a wonderful choice for Norman Osborn (just as Alfred Molina was a wonderful choice for Dr. Octopus), and in this imaginitive context, I'd cast him in my own ideal movie series (a few years younger, though... he looked okay in "Spider-Man" but he was a damn skeleton in "Spider-Man 2"), but I find it ridiculous that Spider-Man wouldn't notice how similar the two characters sounded. Yes, Willem put a little bit of effort into making the two personas sound different, but it was still too close. Even considering that Spider-Man in my ideal series wouldn't have much if any real contact with Norman Osborn before he meets the Green Goblin (he'll have several personal encounters with him in the course of film 3 and 4, especially considering Peter reluctantly agrees to move in with Harry at the end of movie 2), it would be foolish even by a madman's standards to choose not to use a voice modifier when it's clearly within his means to obtain and install one into his fright mask. Yes, Osborn is extremely arrogant, but I want him to take at least some basic precautions in maintaining his double life.

Anyone else have thoughts on all this?

 

[Herr Logan]

that was my quick fast in a hurry idea for the movie. Strucker would be a Lt.
I just wanted to have a better explaination for why Captain America took a minor into battle.Recently it was retconned that Bucky was 19 but it would still fit seeing as Cap is able to do all these power stunts at least the guy watching his back should be on the same level.

Yeah, I also think there should be a better reason for Cap to take a minor into those kinds of missions. I think it's a good idea to have Bucky enhanced by Cap's blood, but I wouldn't want him to be on the same level as Cap in terms of physical enhancement. Your idea for a blood transfusion is the perfect way to keep Steve Rogers the sole tested person to respond successfully to the Super Soldier formula but still get a less powerful but adequately enhanced side-kick. Maybe Bucky could be as physically adept as Daredevil (minus the super-senses), which is still pretty damn formidable, even if he's not at the exactly same level of fitness Cap is. That still leaves him ahead of pretty much any other soldier. Anyway, that's just my preference.

In what era would you have Captain America thaw out? I'm guessing the ideal timeframe would anywhere between the 1960's and now.