Falcon and Winter Soldier SEASON 1, EPISODE 5: TRUTH (SPOILERS)

[Brian Braddock]

Honestly even think Sharon should have dyed her hair if she’s supposed to be in hiding. She looks the exact same.

 

[samsnee]

View attachment 45129

Maybe a baseball cap and sunglasses

 

[Iceman]

It's interesting, though. This show has made an emphasis on how the government won't accept a black man as Captain America (well, actually just the small tip of the iceberg of racism problems).
But...didn't that already happen in Iron Man 3? I mean, not exactly of course. But even having Rhodes in the show, there's no mention of them already having a black patriotic hero. Iron Patriot seemed to be doing what Walker was (and even Steve in the beginning of TFA). Just looking good and being a good boy. Sure that's not what Captain America represents, but it is in the gov's eyes.

I think Captain America is the more important figurehead. For eg Stark never worried about following rules and getting paraded out to be an example to school kids as an example etc. Cap is representing the flag and it’s more of an issue when he does something unpalatable than if any of the other Avengers do.

 

[Iceman]

I hope he stays long enough in the MCU to meet them.

I would love to hear his views on this subject.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The way I see it...

Top Tier Super Soldier:

- USAgent (elite soldier, angry, serum)
- Winter Soldier (programmed death machine)
- Steve Rogers (master strategist, serum)

If Zemo took the serum he'd be top tier too. (I know he'd never take it)

2nd Tier Super Soldier:

- Karli (angry, smart, but limited battle experience)
- Reformed Bucky (experienced but merciful and not necessarily a master strategist)

It doesn't make sense that Bucky would be as efficient when he's not in killer machine mode.

3rd Tier Super Soldier:

- Flag Smasher Henchmen (merciful, usually not too intelligent)
- Falcon with wings (smart, experienced, but no serum)

 

[Dark Raven]

The fight between Walker and Falcon and Bucky reminded me of the fight between Iron Man, Cap and Bucky in Civil War. Yet again Bucky got knocked out cold. Maybe Walker could've also done that Dora Milaje trick of disarming Winter Soldier as well.

 

[Solaire]

Am I one of the few who thinks Walker is ok, but absolutely hates Karli?

She straight up made the Flag Smashers a terrorist group now after killing soldiers and Battlestar, and somehow acts surprised their hideouts and bases are getting raided? Ugh. And the audacity of her to say Walker's their killer after she offs his partner....the obnoxious, self righteous, victim mentality is strong with this one...

I’m close but I don’t hate Karli that much. My main issue is how Walker is seen as more villainous, last episode doesn’t help seeing how he tried to kill Sam and is becoming more and more unhinged but Karli blew up a building with ppl that were tied up. That’s like 10x worse than Walker yet Sam and Buck have gone harder at Walker than Karli. It just makes me think of the WandaVision finale which I loved but hated. Only hated because Monica’s line trying to excuse everything Wanda did which was extremely bad.

I just hope Walker isn’t killed off and Sam let’s Karli get away or something. If that happened it might hurt the series for me big time.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I’m close but I don’t hate Karli that much. My main issue is how Walker is seen as more villainous, last episode doesn’t help seeing how he tried to kill Sam and is becoming more and more unhinged but Karli blew up a building with ppl that were tied up. That’s like 10x worse than Walker yet Sam and Buck have gone harder at Walker than Karli. It just makes me think of the WandaVision finale which I loved but hated. Only hated because Monica’s line trying to excuse everything Wanda did which was extremely bad.

I just hope Walker isn’t killed off and Sam let’s Karli get away or something. If that happened it might hurt the series for me big time.

Yeah, but I don’t think the show is really trying to excuse Karli’s actions. You can see that even within her own group, people are questioning the **** she’s done and Sam even directly called out her hypocrisy to her. I think that’s the whole point of her character; she may be acting for reasons that are sympathetic but it doesn’t excuse the terrible things she’s done.

As for the question of whether Walker or Karli as seen as more villainous; I think that’s debatable since Walker may have gotten his ass kicked and his rank stripped but he’s still out walking around and not being hunted. I think if he’s being perceived by the audience as more villainous it’s more due to people’s connection to Steve Rogers and how this new guy took up the mantle and made a mockery of it.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Sharon working with Batroc, Power Broker, or the stupid Flagsmashers makes no damn sense. She fought against Hydra and risked her life to bring down Shield. Why would she now work with these people?

Not really? The Flagsmashers ideology couldn't be more different from Hydra. I think it's easy to see how she'd come to support them. And Batroc is just a mercenary who couldn't care less about any ideology.

That said, I don't think she is. I definitely feel like it's (at least implied so far) that she is working with or is herself the Power Broker and that she's sending Batroc in to undermine Karlee's op somehow.

 

[javonstokess]

As a WS fan I'm tired of this excuse, Steve never fights to kill anyone but he won most of his fights, Bucky can fight not to kill anyone but still win or at least look like he's a highly skilled supersoldier with vibranium arm (seriously tptb seem to downplay how powerful having a vibranium arm on a supersoldier could be). They are doing him so dirty on this show.

To be fair, Steve had YEARS of experience in non-lethal combat. Bucky, on the other hand, has spent the majority of his time just killing people and then he stopped fighting altogether. Steve's default is to incapacitate; Bucky's default, thanks to Hydra, is to kill. Hard to change that.

 

[Kev4000]

Not really? The Flagsmashers ideology couldn't be more different from Hydra. I think it's easy to see how she'd come to support them.

An organisation accuse a group and play with the fear of population for "the greater good", so they become criminal and radical.
I dont see any difference - maybe except the cartoonish evil boss kills subordinates because failed task.

 

[Schlosser85]

An organisation accuse a group and play with the fear of population for "the greater good", so they become criminal and radical.
I dont see any difference - maybe except the cartoonish evil boss kills subordinates because failed task.

Their aims are completely different. Hydra wants world domination because it thinks only it knows what "order" means and what's for mankind's own good. The Flagsmashers want open borders and everyone free to do what they want, where they want. They wouldn't be allies unless Hydra was using The Flagsmashers as unwitting proxies.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

To be fair, Steve had YEARS of experience in non-lethal combat. Bucky, on the other hand, has spent the majority of his time just killing people and then he stopped fighting altogether. Steve's default is to incapacitate; Bucky's default, thanks to Hydra, is to kill. Hard to change that.

I get peoples frustrations with Bucky being a bit nerfed but considering this and that he is not trying to kill, or hurt anyone (psychiatrists orders!) then it makes a difference to how he approaches fights. He was absolutely not trying to kill Walker and even in killer mode T’Chaka was able to fight him to stand still.

 

[RockSP]

The fight between Walker and Falcon and Bucky reminded me of the fight between Iron Man, Cap and Bucky in Civil War. Yet again Bucky got knocked out cold. Maybe Walker could've also done that Dora Milaje trick of disarming Winter Soldier as well.

Nah. How would Walker know how to do it?

 

[Schlosser85]

Nah. How would Walker know how to do it?

Yea, even if he could have somehow figured out how to do it just from seeing it across a room during a fight, I don't think he was even watching when that happened, I think he was trying to get his shield unpinned from the spear.

 

[djsunyc]

there's been alot...ALOT of great scenes in the MCU (as well as the netflix shows)....but the scene between isaiah and sam, imho, is the best scene in MCU history. this was as real a discussion that can be had in the MCU that we can relate to as people in the real world.

if they give emmy's for guest appearances, then carl lumbly deserves one for this scene. absolutely wonderful at every single level.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Dark Raven]

Look how much muscle they've lost in that 2nd pic.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Ohh that's prefect symmetry .

Dillon you Son of Bee-yahc!!!!

 

[Legendver2]

How do we know it's actually Batroc that Sharon was speaking to on the phone? Was it framed to look that way and people are assuming it was because he showed up at the end? What if it's a red herring?

I watched with subtitles. It says Batroc lmao.

 

[Iceman]

I watched with subtitles. It says Batroc lmao.

Dark Raven: Maybe a different merc for hire with a French accent called Batroc!

 

[Dark Raven]

Dark Raven: Maybe a different merc for hire with a French accent called Batroc!

Maybe it was Henri Jean Batroc.

 

[javonstokess]

I get peoples frustrations with Bucky being a bit nerfed but considering this and that he is not trying to kill, or hurt anyone (psychiatrists orders!) then it makes a difference to how he approaches fights. He was absolutely not trying to kill Walker and even in killer mode T’Chaka was able to fight him to stand still.

Exactly. When he was "activated" by Zemo in Civil War, he took out Steve, Natasha, Tony and Sharon before he even reached T'Challa. There's a single-mindedness to his fighting style as the WS that's not there as Bucky. All you have to do is see the difference in his bouts with T'Challa in that move. He, pretty decisively, loses to T'Challa as Bucky, but goes toe-to-toe as WS. Even in Civil War, when he was WS and faced off agains the other Super Soldiers, he dismissed them pretty easily.

Bucky doesn't want to kill Walker or the Flag Smashers which means he has to find other ways to win his fights.

 

[RiXi]

I think Captain America is the more important figurehead. For eg Stark never worried about following rules and getting paraded out to be an example to school kids as an example etc. Cap is representing the flag and it’s more of an issue when he does something unpalatable than if any of the other Avengers do.

This is from a 2013 interview with Feige:

The Iron Patriot is also kind of a response to Avengers. It’s a government rebrand of War Machine, frankly because the US government felt that they were slightly embarrassed by the events of Avengers. These crazy heroes known as The Avengers were the ones that saved the day, saved New York City, saved United States; not the government. The government felt they needed a hero of their own, they have a military officer that has one of these suits, and they paint it red, white, and blue. They pose it next to the president and Tony sort of rolls his eyes you saw a little bit of that today. They want a hero of their own.

Again, I understand why it's very important in the storyline of this show. But I don't see anything Walker did being different to what Rhodes also did.
Sam will be an actual icon, I'm sure of that. But the image of a black man wearing the American flag and representing their country was already used in the MCU.

 

[Fosterson]

He, pretty decisively, loses to T'Challa as Bucky, but goes toe-to-toe as WS.

A pretty crucial difference though is that T'Challa wasn't in the Panther suit in the fight at the Task Force facility.