Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

[DarthSkywalker]

As far as she knows the Iron Throne is her birthright. Its been her life goal for years. So of course she is fighting for it. Even with the White Walkers coming, **** is still happening south of the Wall. Cersei is making allies, consolidating her power, and going to get stronger unless she is dealt with. So if possible it would be smart to deal with Cersei before dealing with the White Walkers.

And besides, so far, Jon has done very little to convince her to drop everything else, abandon her fight for the Throne, and head North and let Cersei have free run in the South. Dany has the word of a young man that she knows very little about telling her that an army of boogeymen are coming. Oh and Jon showed her some stick figures on a cave wall. Very compelling evidence.

Its silly to expect her to just abandon her fight for the Throne based on Jon's word and some cave scratchings.

Who are these good people on the show whose goal is the throne, not for duty sake, but for a lust for power? Dany desires power. Not altruism, but power. Which is what makes the irony so sweat with her. It is also why so many have to tell her to not go about killing innocent people. She is using the excuse of birthright to get it. Once that is gone, you think she is going to act like the good supportive aunt she should be?

Why would anyone think Jon is lying? What does he get from lying? He wants dragonglass to decorate Winterfell? Unlike the rest of them, he isn't fighting for power and that is rather clear. Otherwise he wouldn't even be at Dragonstone.

Finally, there is a big difference between killing people, and torturing them. Dany is big on the torture. Doing what her enemies do. Jon doesn't do that. He executes people when it is necessary. Spares people when he can. Look at how he handled the war over land earlier this season? Jon is a perfect juxtaposition to how out of control, or at least vicious, Dany is. Others are forced to keep her under control.

 

[Loki882]

Wanting the throne because it's your birthright, and going to war for power and glory, was a big thing in medieval politics. Trying to judge it using modern standards just doesn't really work.

Also Dany being "big on torture" is a stretch, a real stretch.

 

[Reek]

Considering the episode is called Eastwatch, I can't wait to see what Beric, Hound, and Thoros are up to...

Good sir... Don't you dare forget


Everyone's favorite bear ****ing ginger.

 

[Thundercrack85]

They really dropped the ball on Dorne. I hope they will pick it up at some point, since they were supposed to be the most powerful of the 7 kingdoms.

 

[Marvolo]

Who are these good people on the show whose goal is the throne, not for duty sake, but for a lust for power? Dany desires power. Not altruism, but power. Which is what makes the irony so sweat with her. It is also why so many have to tell her to not go about killing innocent people. She is using the excuse of birthright to get it. Once that is gone, you think she is going to act like the good supportive aunt she should be?

Why would anyone think Jon is lying? What does he get from lying? He wants dragonglass to decorate Winterfell? Unlike the rest of them, he isn't fighting for power and that is rather clear. Otherwise he wouldn't even be at Dragonstone.

Finally, there is a big difference between killing people, and torturing them. Dany is big on the torture. Doing what her enemies do. Jon doesn't do that. He executes people when it is necessary. Spares people when he can. Look at how he handled the war over land earlier this season? Jon is a perfect juxtaposition to how out of control, or at least vicious, Dany is. Others are forced to keep her under control.

Did I say anything about altruism or duty? No I didn't. She has wanted the throne since she saw it as a real possibility. She thinks it's her birthright. Which it is. Traditionally Jon has the better claim but neither she nor anyone else besides Bran knows that. And with the precedent Cersei set (that women can rule) it could be argued that Dany has a better claim than Jon because she is the daughter of the Mad King and Jon is his grandson.

And no I don't expect her to just shrug and say "Oh well, here's the Iron Throne, Jon." when Bran or Jon tells her that Jon is a Targ. For one thing, she doesn't know Bran and shouldn't just believe that some spaced out crippled guy really is traveling through time and telling the truth. She shouldn't be that gullible, and hopefully D&D won't make her that gullible. She should be skeptical. Even when she believes it, her just being ok with that revelation wouldn't be remotely appropriate. She's been working towards taking back the Iron Throne for years and has grown up thinking she and her brother were the last Targs. And for the past handful of years she has believed she was the last Targ. She shouldn't just be ok with Bran's revelation, happy about it, or immediately accept it. She's not a Vulcan and taking the Throne isn't some minor hobby of hers. It's a life goal. Something she has suffered to achieve. Something she's willing to die for. Expecting her to just give that up is silly.

Why would anyone think Jon is lying about the White Walkers... You have to see this from her point of view rather than a viewer's point of view. Jon shows up, a stranger to her, and starts talking about a supposed army of dead men and mythical monsters and that she needs him and the North just when she wants him to bend the knee and he refuses. To any sensible person, that would come across like horse****. She doesn't know him, his motivations, if he is running some long con, if he is as devious as the rest of the leaders of the great houses, if he is really there to attempt to assassinate her, if he is insane etc. She can't afford to just immediately believe this stranger based on stories and cave drawings. She has to get to know him and he's going to have to do better than stories and cave drawings. It's the same for Jon. He doesn't know her, and won't bend the knee to someone that he doesn't know. Both of them need to spend some time getting to know one another. And in the meantime, a war is going on south of the Wall, and she can't just chill and do nothing while Cersei does whatever the bad place she is doing.

Also when has Dany executed or tortured innocent people? If you're referring to her talking about burning people, every time she's done that she's been threatened or attacked or is pissed off or she's trying to intimidate. But she has listened to council each time and held back. She isn't to the point where she is burning innocent people and non combatants.

 

[Loki882]

Again some people have ludicrous standards for Dany, that no other character is stuck with. I guess that she should be altruistic 100% of the time, and also omnipotent, maybe THEN people will start treating her fairly.

 

[Reek]

I think dany should die ASAP

 

[Ruth Fisher]

I think Greyworm should die ASAP

 

[Reek]

He can die, too.

 

[KevTravels]

They really dropped the ball on Dorne. I hope they will pick it up at some point, since they were supposed to be the most powerful of the 7 kingdoms.

maybe i forgot some things from the book, but why were they the most powerful?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Jon is an idiot if he honestly thought the Mother of Dragons would believe a man she never met discuss a threat she never had a reason to believe in. He should have brought evidence. Besides, she has the army and the dragons, so she can play hard to get.

Jon should really be doing a better job negotiating with D, but really, what proof can he get?

 

[Charlatan]

Dany isn't going mad. Yeah she is going to burn some pows but she gives them a choice. It's war people. Not a bake off. Now she might be obsessed with taking back what she feels is her birthright. But she's not evil or mad.

The episode title makes me believe that Sam is going to find out about Jon's parents. That Lyanna wasn't kidnapped but married Rhaegar and Jon's name is Aegon Targaryen

But he might not connect the dots to Jon just yet. Bran has that piece of the puzzle.
We see from the preview that Bran has sent Jon a raven telling him about Eastwatch and the White Walkers. I don't think he tells him about the Tower of Joy just yet. He might not even know all of it and we might see another vision ,a more complete one that reveals his name and shows Ned promising to keep it a secret and protect the child. Will be quite the emotional reveal to the kids knowing their dad was faithful to their mother and carried the burden like he did to protect Jon.
It could cause some tension between them too. But that's not happening this episode. And I do believe Jon and the Dragons will bond a bit.

Also did anyone get a terrible sense of foreboding when Sansa remarked that Jon's heart would stop when he and Arya were re-united? Arya still seems a bit off to me.
And I'm still not sure what Bran's endgame is. Who's side is he really on?
I do have a theory though and it has to do with Dany getting pregnant by Jon.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

How vital is the North to Westeros? It's the largest portion, but has a small population comparably. But does it have many resources at all?

Or is it simply if you allow Jon to claim the North as his own, then perhaps other kingdoms would do the same? Because she really doesn't need the North so much as long as Jon is just her ally. And she knows he will be against the Lannisters.

But maybe it's just this incessant need for total domination by her and Stannis before. Renly at least held the option that Robb could be King. Why dominate a region so far away, when you could compromise and have them as allies.

They're the poorest, I think. They definitely have the lowest pop. density.

They have the most land, as you say. As such, I think the need to conquer is mostly symbolic.

 

[Reek]

The episode title makes me believe that Sam is going to find out about Jon's parents. That Lyanna wasn't kidnapped but married Rhaegar and Jon's name is Aegon Targaryen

"Eastwatch" made you think this?.......

 

[BullMcGiveny]

My thoughts re: Dany are as such

1- Stannis did a lot of the same stuff, but the show wasn't presenting him as the good guy. He was presented as a deeply flawed individual and ultimately, an anti-villain.

If people didn't say anything, it was because the show was already saying it. Stannis had scant few supporters and even Davos was often critical.

With D, they just keep talking about what an amazing inspiring queen with a good heart she is. Naturally a lot of people call ********.

2- Drogonbeing used in battle is horrific, but you can't not use a weapon like that. As others have said, it is war.

Once the enemy is defeated is another matter. She could send the Tarlys to the Night Watch, she could give them a swift execution. If she feeds them to drogon or burns them, then she truly is her father's daughter.

3- I don't know if she'll be the mad queen, but the fact that they're still teasing it at this juncture is ****ing irritating. If she's a good queen, she should stop being so entitled and hypocritical.

She should be a queen who focuses on her duties, rather than her rights.

If she is the mad queen, then stop wasting screentime shilling how good a person she is.

 

[Loki882]

She needs to get the throne before she can "concentrate on her duties." Hard to rule a kingdom, when you don't have one to rule yet.

I feel like her going all "mad queen" would be incredibly predictable and cliché at this point. "Oh her dad went mad, so now she is to, aren't we clever?" No, no you're not if you go that route.

I also disagree that no one ever calls her out on it, or that she's not presented as flawed.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Jon is an idiot if he honestly thought the Mother of Dragons would believe a man she never met discuss a threat she never had a reason to believe in. He should have brought evidence. Besides, she has the army and the dragons, so she can play hard to get.

Yeah I thought that as well. He shoukd have come with a little speech at least. He relied entirely with Davos (which in a way was reminiscent of him helping Stannis with the Iron Bank).

At least bring a PowerPoint, man.

She needs to get the throne before she can "concentrate on her duties." Hard to rule a kingdom, when you don't have one to rule yet.

"Lord Seaworth is a humble man, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights.
I had the cart befote the horse. I was trying to get the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." - The One True King.

 

[Thundercrack85]

maybe i forgot some things from the book, but why were they the most powerful?

The Targaryens had the most difficulty conquering Dorne (they even killed a dragon). That's why the ruler of Dorne is allowed to call himself prince. They ended up joining the Seven Kingdoms through marriage, since the Targaryens could never pacify the region.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Thundercrack85]

When is the Night King going to admit that they're lost?

 

[Silver Surfer]

Tyrion can use chemical weapons, no judgment.

Stannis can use blood magic to kill his brother, and people call him pragmatic and willing to do what it takes.

But when Dany uses a dragon on a military target - Mad Queen


Rob breaks his oaths left and right, but is justified because he's doing it for "love".

Jon breaks his pledge to the free folk and double crosses them, but is considered justified.

Arya breaks her commitment to the faceless men who saved her life, and the lives of her friends, no one bats an eye

But when Dany breaks her deal with the masters to end slavery as an institution - Can't be trusted.

Everything Dany does is seen through a microscope, the double standards are not even hidden, sad really.

 

[CB Fan]

Yeah I've pretty much given up defending her to people who are just dying for her to be crazy and evil. She's far from a perfect person but I've yet to see anything that makes me feel she's some bloodthirsty mad queen.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Yeah I've pretty much given up defending her to people who are just dying for her to be crazy and evil. She's far from a perfect person but I've yet to see anything that makes me feel she's some bloodthirsty mad queen.

It's horrific to see people burned alive like that. Tyrion was clearly shocked.

I can see him betraying her.

 

[CB Fan]

Yeah it was they did a great job of showing just how horrific it is, that said you get into a war with a "mother of dragons" you can't claim foul when dragons are used. As for Tyrion I honestly just think he's out of his league and that he has a conflict of interest. He should've known at some point he was going to have to go up against not only his sister but his brother.

There's only three episodes left and I need Sunday to get here ASAP.

 

[Silver Surfer]

It's horrific to see people burned alive like that. Tyrion was clearly shocked.

I can see him betraying her.

Well considering he burned people alive like that at Black water bay via wildfire, he would be a raging hypocrite. But I'm sure Dany haters would never call him out on that.