Season 7, Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf" Discussion Thread

[Kane52630]

 

[Ruth Fisher]

And the dumbest post award goes to...

Nope! My post is valid and truthful. Cersei has been betrayed by her hoe brothers I can no longer support Jamie for abandoning his unborn baby.

I forgot to post earlier as well that I am upset none of the starks ever seem to feel sad or miss Catelyn. Its always about ned ned ned. They could have said I miss him AND MOM when arya and sansa had that scene. Wtf is wrong with them lol

 

[InCali]

Well, this is certainly one of the most entertaining, if not logical, threads on The Hype.

Awesome.....

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I have a question. Cersei blamed Tyrion for the death of her children and her reasoning was that had he not killed Tywin then their father would have been around and their enemies would have come after the family. Is that true? Would Ellaria not have killed Myrcella if Tywin was around? Would the Faith Militant not arrested her and the Tyrells if Tywin was around?

Tywin did seem to be quite an intimidating guy. Even as arrogant as Joffrey was....he wouldn't mess with Tywin. I can't help thinking that scene with Tommen going up against the Sparrows would have gone quite a bit differently if it were Tywin.

I keep wondering why they are waiting so long before the last season. I don't really buy that it's just going to take that long to complete it and think there must be another reason. Maybe they want to wait for the book to come out??? Maybe that's somehow important. I'm wondering if he'll EVER finish the books.

I'm bummed that it's going to be so long of a wait and would like to know why they are really taking so long to finish up. Of course I'll also be bummed when it's all over. Just like Orphan Black. I guess I'm a lost cause.

I think of it like waiting for a movie to get made. Just one big budget movie takes over a year to make usually. They are going to produce 8 or 9 hours of content with special effects, epic battles, etc. It's pretty impressive that they can do all that under 2 years really.

I forgot to post earlier as well that I am upset none of the starks ever seem to feel sad or miss Catelyn. Its always about ned ned ned. They could have said I miss him AND MOM when arya and sansa had that scene. Wtf is wrong with them lol

Not a bad point actually. Poor Mom is an afterthought.

 

[javonstokess]

Sparrow definitely wouldn't have taken over if Tywin was around.

 

[chamber-music]

Nope! My post is valid and truthful. Cersei has been betrayed by her hoe brothers I can no longer support Jamie for abandoning his unborn baby.

I forgot to post earlier as well that I am upset none of the starks ever seem to feel sad or miss Catelyn. Its always about ned ned ned. They could have said I miss him AND MOM when arya and sansa had that scene. Wtf is wrong with them lol

I don't recall Rickon getting mentioned as well.

Cersei is going to get this baby killed just like the rest of her children.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Peter Dinklage weighs in on Dany/Jon. His reaction is telling. It's not really about him being in love with Dany. Go to 1:30

[YT]tbEy9a9aW0Y[/YT]

 

[RoastBeast]

Nope! My post is valid and truthful. Cersei has been betrayed by her hoe brothers I can no longer support Jamie for abandoning his unborn baby.

I forgot to post earlier as well that I am upset none of the starks ever seem to feel sad or miss Catelyn. Its always about ned ned ned. They could have said I miss him AND MOM when arya and sansa had that scene. Wtf is wrong with them lol

Good point on mom, there. When Arya was avenging the Red Wedding, she did list Catelyn as one of the reasons, though- the Walders killed "a mother of five" so Arya didn't forget.

 

[Havok83]

I don't recall Rickon getting mentioned as well.
.

and thats bothered me. Arya should have inquired about him and Sansa should have told her what happened. Its understandable why Brann wouldnt ask but Arya? This was mishandled

 

[TheFuture]

It's those little things such as mourning Rickon et al that would have been greatly assisted by even an extra episode. Nothing flash or expensive required to write scenes where people can act.

D&D didn't need GRRM's assistance to do that, they just needed to be able to write good drama. After 7 years they shouldn't have an issue there as they've shown skill already at inserting their own dramatic pieces to the story.

 

[Iceman]

It's those little things such as mourning Rickon et al that would have been greatly assisted by even an extra episode. Nothing flash or expensive required to write scenes where people can act.

D&D didn't need GRRM's assistance to do that, they just needed to be able to write good drama. After 7 years they shouldn't have an issue there as they've shown skill already at inserting their own dramatic pieces to the story.

They've boxed themselves in by trying to finish in a rush. There will inevitably be pressure on screentime (which wasn't there in early seasons) meaning some good things will have to be cut or just not filmed. The fans and HBO I'm sure would have loved an extra season and it's unfortunate that little things are going to fall by the wayside.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Unfortunately Rickon is the forgotten Stark. The most memorable thing about him was getting killed in the Battle of the Bastards.

 

[Iceman]

He's a pointless character.

 

[Guts]

I haven't read the books, but I'm wondering, will Martin course-correct the remaining books with regards to what's happening on the show, or will he go his own way?

The show has already made itself different from the books, one of the main reasons is that quite a few characters from the books weren't in the show. This season would probably have went in a completely different course if Euron[BLACKOUT] had the dragonbinder [/BLACKOUT]like he does in the books.

 

[Iceman]

I kind of like that the books and show will be different now. It also means the release of both books will still be an anticipated event.

 

[DACrowe]

I just hope that the ending for all the major characters (Stark, Lannister, Targaryen) will be the endings George gave them. i.e. don't make it a happy ending between Jon and Dany, because I'm pretty sure that's not what George had in mind.

Anyway, I loved the episode like everyone else. I think season 7 as a whole is one of the series' weaker ones (still better than 5), but even with all its pacing and strange logic leap problems, it is still highly satisfying television and drama.

I particularly loved the Lannister scenes here. Both Jaime and Tyrion have kind of been sidelined in recent seasons, with Jaime particularly treading water until he was allowed to continue his arc which stalled at the beginning of season 5. Seeing both of them play off Cersei was magnificently intense. Dinklage brought the thunder.

Also props to Aidan Gillen for going out as the most lovably unlikable character. His death was pathetic and oh, so satisfying. I do wish they made his final scheme that backfired something that wasn't so obviously not going to work as turning the Stark sisters against each other, but that was a tremendous scene where we said goodbye to him. I'll miss his performance but not the character.

Actually, this episode felt to me like the Starks returning to their stances after season 5 scattered them to the wind. They are now a hardened fighting unit, while the Lannisters are imploding. It is the real endgame to me, more than just fighting the dead. Although, how could no one really see Cersei's betrayal coming?

Great episode to a good if not amazing season. Now that all the pieces are in place, here is to hoping the final season pulls out all the stops and will not waste time setting things up. It is about payoff. In 2019. Sigh. One day.

 

[TheVileOne]

It's those little things such as mourning Rickon et al that would have been greatly assisted by even an extra episode. Nothing flash or expensive required to write scenes where people can act.

D&D didn't need GRRM's assistance to do that, they just needed to be able to write good drama. After 7 years they shouldn't have an issue there as they've shown skill already at inserting their own dramatic pieces to the story.

No one working on this show cared about Rickon. His only reason for coming back in season 6 was to get fridged.

Unfortunately Rickon is the forgotten Stark. The most memorable thing about him was getting killed in the Battle of the Bastards.

Yup pretty much. It was my least favorite thing about season 6.

 

[Drizzle]

How would you guys compare this to past season finales?

It's a tough call between this and "The Winds of Winter" for me. Each one had a great tense buildup moment (the trial and explosion at the Sept, the meeting at the dragon pit), a long-awaited death (Walder Frey, Littlefinger), more light shed on Jon's parentage (Him being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, their wedding which proves his legitimacy as a Targaryen), and a huge step forward in the plot as the final scene (Daenerys sails to Westeros, the Night King brings down the wall). It's tough to choose.

 

[TheVileOne]

This felt like a good way to end things before waiting two years to get to the final season.

All the first-time meetings and reunions were pretty interesting as well.

 

[Elayis]

When the last episode aired I said it was the best one in years, but it seems my remarks were premature. I had no idea the events that took place would all be undermined, with nothing meaningful resulting from it; it was all just an excuse to have a big action sequence, all sound and fury signifying nothing.

I think it’s safe to say this was the worse season of the show. The last two seasons were severely flawed, but they at least still felt like the old show, albeit at a much reduced level of quality. This was the first finale that left me cold, with no anticipation for what’s to come. I’m not sure there was a single scene I didn’t roll my eyes at. Even the ending at the Wall was unimpressive. For me, the s2 ending with the lone WW was much more menacing and impactful.

A big part of what attracted me to the show in the first place was that it was constantly throwing curveballs. The whole point was that it subverted genre conventions and tropes, and stupidity had dire consequences. So the current version of the show almost feels like a betrayal. I’ve been massively letdown by how predictable and rote everything has been for the last couple seasons, but especially s7.

It seems obvious that D&D have lost any interest they had in making quality TV and are basically operating on autopilot. You need look for further for proof of their boredom then the Bran/Sam montage this episode. That’s some of the laziest storytelling I’ve ever seen in a (supposedly) respectable piece of entertainment. I just wish they had handed the reins over to someone else that could’ve kept the writing at a respectable standard because at this point even the spectacle doesn’t do anything for me.

And maybe this is just a problem inherent to the story (especially with the show choosing the Night King as the WW leader), but there’s something ultimately unsatisfying about seeing the AoD threat playing out. It was far more interesting when played in the shadows, without such a blatant visual presentation. The power of the death was depicted perfectly in Hardhome, a mixture of horror and awe. Seeing an army of slow moving guys in makeup with a CGI dragon taking down a CGI wall just seems so passé. But, maybe it’s just the D’s poor storytelling skills and the books will do it better. Just sucks we’ll never see the WW threat done justice visually.

I’ve put all of my specific issues in spoilers, since there’s a lot of them and I didn’t want to flood the thread with text:

Spoiler

Wasn't Grey Worm and the rest of the Unsullied trapped at Chastely Rock? How’d they manage to escape and travel a thousand miles on foot? Why would Cersei and Euron allow them to leave CR without attacking them?

Could we not go an episode without the D’s mistaking cock jokes and profanity for mature writing?

How does it make sense that Bronn would side with Cersei over the queen with dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied and the North on her side?

Just visually, Dany’s entrance on Drogon was lessened by the fact she already did the same thing at least twice this season, once even to an ally.

I’m supposed to believe that a schemer like Varys had absolutely nothing to say at the Dragonpit? At the very least, shouldn’t Qyburn or Cersei say something about their traitorous former small council member?

I’m not quite sure what Cersei was asking of Jon. That he wouldn’t attack her while they were allies fighting the White Walkers? Or that he would never move against her ever, even if they won the “Great War”? If it’s the former, why would he do that if they are allies? If it’s the latter, how could she remotely expect him to agree to that? And why would she attempt to negotiate with him since she sees him as a traitor that stole a third of her kingdom?

I have to say, the small little “Hollywood” moments of the episode really irritated me. The Hound knocking on the wight’s box (to remind viewers that somehow forgot about it from last episode), the wight not moving or making any noise until it was dumped out. I’m sure there were others, but the point is its inconsistent with the realistic and non-tropey world that was established in the first few seasons. Characters shouldn’t react like they know they’re on a TV show. Real life usually isn’t very dramatic or exciting, it’s often quite mundane and awkward. I can forgive high drama for the big twists or action scenes, but for something low-key and small like this just rubs me the wrong way.

What the hell was the wight hunt even for? How could any of the characters think that it would actually pay off? Why are they trying to get Cersei on their side anyways? What possible use would she be against the WW? Why didn’t Dany simply kill Cersei and Euron at the Dragonpit and take over King’s Landing? So losing Thoros and Viserion was for literally nothing, and was only contrived into existence so that the Night King could get a dragon.

Cersei’s hunch that something happened to the third dragon was quite a leap. As Jaime said, it could be off guarding something or even hunting for food. The fact that Cersei is the only one with any brains left who can accurately predict what people will do sickens me. Okay D&D, we get it, she’s your favorite. But did you have to make everyone else morons in the process? Couldn’t anyone see that Cersei would never agree to a truce? The fact that it’s almost certain her role in the books won’t be anything similar to this just compounds my frustration. Cersei should’ve died this episode. Why are they stringing out such a boring (but yes, well acted) character so long? And why is it that she’s the craziest person on the show but somehow still able to scheme and manipulate people so perfectly? Why isn’t King’s Landing in open revolt?

Littlefinger’s comeuppance was so predictable and boring. As I said when the Arya v Sansa scenes started, there was no secret plan. They really were at each others throats, it wasn’t an act for LF’s benefit to lure him in. It saddens me to see such a mastermind reduced to this (the person responsible for the setting off the Stark/Lannister conflict in the first place), but honestly I’m just glad to see him go. The character’s been useless since he killed Lysa. And shouldn’t Royce have a problem with Sansa sitting on her murder for so long? Why is it okay that she kept it from him and lied to his face? Sansa also comes off very stupid, that it took her until her conversation with Littlefinger THIS EPISODE to finally realize what he was after and how he was attempting to manipulate her.

I’m not sure which Tyrion I dislike more. The one that tries to teach Missandai and Grey Worm how to make jokes or the one that can’t strategize and instead pouts and constantly glowers disapprovingly. As with so many other characters, there’s nothing interesting or likable about him anymore. I also was not a fan of Jon’s forgiveness. He may not have killed Bran or Rickon, but he betrayed Robb, sacked Winterfell, killed Ser Rodrick, caused Maester Luwin’s death, murdered two innocent young boys and allowed Sansa to be repeatedly raped and abused. Killing Ramsey’s girlfriend and helping Sansa escape doesn’t make up for all of his wrongs, and at the very least it isn’t Jon’s place to forgive him.

Ever since season 4 Theon’s done almost nothing of note. It’s bad enough that his Bolton arc was stolen by Sansa, but in place of that the D’s have given him nothing interesting to do. Like Tyrion, they should’ve just pulled a direwolf and killed him off. And the ball-less gag during the fight was just dumb. Getting hit there, even without a dick and/or balls would still hurt. Schoolyard level writing.

Why do they insist in putting off the conflict between Jaime and Cersei? Wouldn’t it have been more shocking and GoT-like to actually kill Jaime when she threatened him? Who watching this thought there was a chance he wouldn’t make it out alive? The fact that it took this long for him to leave her (but still not enough to kill her) sickens me. So much for his redemption arc. Too little too late, about 3 years too late in fact.

I can’t stress enough how lazy and frankly terrible the Bran/Sam montage was. It makes it more abundantly clear than ever that Bran is ridiculously overpowered. If he can so easily see past and current events, why hasn’t anybody utilized this amazing skill until now? Couldn’t Sansa or Arya used this to overcome their catfight? Couldn’t they have gotten advice for the wight hunt? Why can’t he solve almost any problem the characters face in the future? I also can’t understand why Jon was named Aegon when Rhaegar already had a son (who was still alive at the point) with the same name. Seems redundant and silly to me. It’s not like he’s Walder Frey with a hundred children.

And I have to say, Bran constantly chirping out “I’m the Three Eyed Raven” is as annoying as Danny Rand going “I’m the Immortal Iron Fist”. Especially given the fact that no one knows what the term even means.

Also, just on a sensual level, the Jon/Dany love scene did not live up to the hype. It was very short, and the only nudity was a quick flash of Kit’s butt? This is probably THE love story of the entire series, and this is all we get? The one time GoT should’ve delivered on the sex and it dropped the ball? The montage aspect with Bran’s voiceover also killed the mood and any enjoyment that could’ve been had. The scene is never allowed to breathe. And I can’t understand why Tyrion doesn’t approve. He doesn’t know they’re related, but even if he did Targaryens are known for it. Even his parents were cousins. Shouldn’t he be happy, a political marriage between Dany and the North should be great to solidify their power.

By far the most disappointing single sequence was the destruction of the Wall. I may be the only one, but to me the Night King actually riding on Viserion's back was just too over the top, too cartoonish. I’m not sure why I can buy the Nazgul but not this. It just seems to silly, even for me, a dyed in the wool genre fan. Maybe because there’s still no saddle and the NK actor isn’t doing any acting? They really emasculated the character when they recast. They should’ve brought back Richard Brake after the Bastard Executioner was cancelled.

And a small nitpick, but why were Vision’s wings in tatters? He was only hit by the spear in a single spot on the neck. There’s no reason for that kind of damaged to have accrued since his death, besides the fact that it looks cool. Also, given the fact that his fire-breathing glands were damaged (and becoming a wight does not induce any sort of healing) how is it he’s able to breathe ice fire at all? And logically, Tormund and Beric should be dead, right? They didn’t have time to make it down off the wall. And there’s no way they were far enough on the other side to have escaped the collapse.

But on the whole, my biggest issue is how perfunctory and uninspired the dialogue is. There was a poetry and elegance to GRRM’s writing that the show now clearly lacks. So much of my enjoyment was bound up in the way the character’s could turn a phrase. I’ve said it before, but it really does feel like a Cliff Notes version of the show, or a bad fanfic. It saddens me that I can regularly predict exactly what a character will say.

 

[InCali]

When the last episode aired I said it was the best one in years, but it seems my remarks were premature. I had no idea the events that took place would all be undermined, with nothing meaningful resulting from it; it was all just an excuse to have a big action sequence, all sound and fury signifying nothing.

I think it’s safe to say this was the worse season of the show. The last two seasons were severely flawed, but they at least still felt like the old show, albeit at a much reduced level of quality. This was the first finale that left me cold, with no anticipation for what’s to come. I’m not sure there was a single scene I didn’t roll my eyes at. Even the ending at the Wall was unimpressive. For me, the s2 ending with the lone WW was much more menacing and impactful.

A big part of what attracted me to the show in the first place was that it was constantly throwing curveballs. The whole point was that it subverted genre conventions and tropes, and stupidity had dire consequences. So the current version of the show almost feels like a betrayal. I’ve been massively letdown by how predictable and rote everything has been for the last couple seasons, but especially s7.

It seems obvious that D&D have lost any interest they had in making quality TV and are basically operating on autopilot. You need look for further for proof of their boredom then the Bran/Sam montage this episode. That’s some of the laziest storytelling I’ve ever seen in a (supposedly) respectable piece of entertainment. I just wish they had handed the reins over to someone else that could’ve kept the writing at a respectable standard because at this point even the spectacle doesn’t do anything for me.

And maybe this is just a problem inherent to the story (especially with the show choosing the Night King as the WW leader), but there’s something ultimately unsatisfying about seeing the AoD threat playing out. It was far more interesting when played in the shadows, without such a blatant visual presentation. The power of the death was depicted perfectly in Hardhome, a mixture of horror and awe. Seeing an army of slow moving guys in makeup with a CGI dragon taking down a CGI wall just seems so passé. But, maybe it’s just the D’s poor storytelling skills and the books will do it better. Just sucks we’ll never see the WW threat done justice visually.

I’ve put all of my specific issues in spoilers, since there’s a lot of them and I didn’t want to flood the thread with text:

Spoiler

Wasn't Grey Worm and the rest of the Unsullied trapped at Chastely Rock? How’d they manage to escape and travel a thousand miles on foot? Why would Cersei and Euron allow them to leave CR without attacking them?

Could we not go an episode without the D’s mistaking cock jokes and profanity for mature writing?

How does it make sense that Bronn would side with Cersei over the queen with dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied and the North on her side?

Just visually, Dany’s entrance on Drogon was lessened by the fact she already did the same thing at least twice this season, once even to an ally.

I’m supposed to believe that a schemer like Varys had absolutely nothing to say at the Dragonpit? At the very least, shouldn’t Qyburn or Cersei say something about their traitorous former small council member?

I’m not quite sure what Cersei was asking of Jon. That he wouldn’t attack her while they were allies fighting the White Walkers? Or that he would never move against her ever, even if they won the “Great War”? If it’s the former, why would he do that if they are allies? If it’s the latter, how could she remotely expect him to agree to that? And why would she attempt to negotiate with him since she sees him as a traitor that stole a third of her kingdom?

I have to say, the small little “Hollywood” moments of the episode really irritated me. The Hound knocking on the wight’s box (to remind viewers that somehow forgot about it from last episode), the wight not moving or making any noise until it was dumped out. I’m sure there were others, but the point is its inconsistent with the realistic and non-tropey world that was established in the first few seasons. Characters shouldn’t react like they know they’re on a TV show. Real life usually isn’t very dramatic or exciting, it’s often quite mundane and awkward. I can forgive high drama for the big twists or action scenes, but for something low-key and small like this just rubs me the wrong way.

What the hell was the wight hunt even for? How could any of the characters think that it would actually pay off? Why are they trying to get Cersei on their side anyways? What possible use would she be against the WW? Why didn’t Dany simply kill Cersei and Euron at the Dragonpit and take over King’s Landing? So losing Thoros and Viserion was for literally nothing, and was only contrived into existence so that the Night King could get a dragon.

Cersei’s hunch that something happened to the third dragon was quite a leap. As Jaime said, it could be off guarding something or even hunting for food. The fact that Cersei is the only one with any brains left who can accurately predict what people will do sickens me. Okay D&D, we get it, she’s your favorite. But did you have to make everyone else morons in the process? Couldn’t anyone see that Cersei would never agree to a truce? The fact that it’s almost certain her role in the books won’t be anything similar to this just compounds my frustration. Cersei should’ve died this episode. Why are they stringing out such a boring (but yes, well acted) character so long? And why is it that she’s the craziest person on the show but somehow still able to scheme and manipulate people so perfectly? Why isn’t King’s Landing in open revolt?

Littlefinger’s comeuppance was so predictable and boring. As I said when the Arya v Sansa scenes started, there was no secret plan. They really were at each others throats, it wasn’t an act for LF’s benefit to lure him in. It saddens me to see such a mastermind reduced to this (the person responsible for the setting off the Stark/Lannister conflict in the first place), but honestly I’m just glad to see him go. The character’s been useless since he killed Lysa. And shouldn’t Royce have a problem with Sansa sitting on her murder for so long? Why is it okay that she kept it from him and lied to his face? Sansa also comes off very stupid, that it took her until her conversation with Littlefinger THIS EPISODE to finally realize what he was after and how he was attempting to manipulate her.

I’m not sure which Tyrion I dislike more. The one that tries to teach Missandai and Grey Worm how to make jokes or the one that can’t strategize and instead pouts and constantly glowers disapprovingly. As with so many other characters, there’s nothing interesting or likable about him anymore. I also was not a fan of Jon’s forgiveness. He may not have killed Bran or Rickon, but he betrayed Robb, sacked Winterfell, killed Ser Rodrick, caused Maester Luwin’s death, murdered two innocent young boys and allowed Sansa to be repeatedly raped and abused. Killing Ramsey’s girlfriend and helping Sansa escape doesn’t make up for all of his wrongs, and at the very least it isn’t Jon’s place to forgive him.

Ever since season 4 Theon’s done almost nothing of note. It’s bad enough that his Bolton arc was stolen by Sansa, but in place of that the D’s have given him nothing interesting to do. Like Tyrion, they should’ve just pulled a direwolf and killed him off. And the ball-less gag during the fight was just dumb. Getting hit there, even without a dick and/or balls would still hurt. Schoolyard level writing.

Why do they insist in putting off the conflict between Jaime and Cersei? Wouldn’t it have been more shocking and GoT-like to actually kill Jaime when she threatened him? Who watching this thought there was a chance he wouldn’t make it out alive? The fact that it took this long for him to leave her (but still not enough to kill her) sickens me. So much for his redemption arc. Too little too late, about 3 years too late in fact.

I can’t stress enough how lazy and frankly terrible the Bran/Sam montage was. It makes it more abundantly clear than ever that Bran is ridiculously overpowered. If he can so easily see past and current events, why hasn’t anybody utilized this amazing skill until now? Couldn’t Sansa or Arya used this to overcome their catfight? Couldn’t they have gotten advice for the wight hunt? Why can’t he solve almost any problem the characters face in the future? I also can’t understand why Jon was named Aegon when Rhaegar already had a son (who was still alive at the point) with the same name. Seems redundant and silly to me. It’s not like he’s Walder Frey with a hundred children.

And I have to say, Bran constantly chirping out “I’m the Three Eyed Raven” is as annoying as Danny Rand going “I’m the Immortal Iron Fist”. Especially given the fact that no one knows what the term even means.

Also, just on a sensual level, the Jon/Dany love scene did not live up to the hype. It was very short, and the only nudity was a quick flash of Kit’s butt? This is probably THE love story of the entire series, and this is all we get? The one time GoT should’ve delivered on the sex and it dropped the ball? The montage aspect with Bran’s voiceover also killed the mood and any enjoyment that could’ve been had. The scene is never allowed to breathe. And I can’t understand why Tyrion doesn’t approve. He doesn’t know they’re related, but even if he did Targaryens are known for it. Even his parents were cousins. Shouldn’t he be happy, a political marriage between Dany and the North should be great to solidify their power.

By far the most disappointing single sequence was the destruction of the Wall. I may be the only one, but to me the Night King actually riding on Viserion's back was just too over the top, too cartoonish. I’m not sure why I can buy the Nazgul but not this. It just seems to silly, even for me, a dyed in the wool genre fan. Maybe because there’s still no saddle and the NK actor isn’t doing any acting? They really emasculated the character when they recast. They should’ve brought back Richard Brake after the Bastard Executioner was cancelled.

And a small nitpick, but why were Vision’s wings in tatters? He was only hit by the spear in a single spot on the neck. There’s no reason for that kind of damaged to have accrued since his death, besides the fact that it looks cool. Also, given the fact that his fire-breathing glands were damaged (and becoming a wight does not induce any sort of healing) how is it he’s able to breathe ice fire at all? And logically, Tormund and Beric should be dead, right? They didn’t have time to make it down off the wall. And there’s no way they were far enough on the other side to have escaped the collapse.

But on the whole, my biggest issue is how perfunctory and uninspired the dialogue is. There was a poetry and elegance to GRRM’s writing that the show now clearly lacks. So much of my enjoyment was bound up in the way the character’s could turn a phrase. I’ve said it before, but it really does feel like a Cliff Notes version of the show, or a bad fanfic. It saddens me that I can regularly predict exactly what a character will say.

WRT to your complaints about Cersei in your spoilers, I can't BELIEVE you are being so hard on her. I DON'T SEE WHY THEY LET THAT WIGHT RUN UP ON CERSEI LIKE THAT!!! HOW COULD THEY? I DIDN'T SCREAM, BUT MY HEART FROZE. SHE LOOKED SO SCARED FOR HER BABY!!! She is such a strong person and she deserves to sit on the Iron Throne. Why should she help those incestuous Targaryens? Aunt and Nephew??? They are haters who want to use her and then get her off the throne. And can we also highlight that she had mutiple oppurtunities (or however you spell stuff) to kill her brothers this episode and she didnt, bc cersei doesnt (or however you capitalise and punktuate and contract those words) betray her family unlike her TRAITOR brothers.

I'm so sad arya and sansa have squashed their beef btw. They need each other and those two nasty Starks are going to end up boinking each other like a couple of ferrets.

Cersei is the only one with ANY morals. I hope she ends up eating roast Targaryen dragon.

Reek: Do I win?

 

[I Am The Knight]

QUINN CERSEY!!

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Over the course of the show, I always had the sense that the Starks were having a much tougher time than the Lannisters.

But looking around now....there seem to be quite a few more Starks standing than Lannisters.

 

[childeroland]

Spoiler

Wasn't Grey Worm and the rest of the Unsullied trapped at Chastely Rock? How’d they manage to escape and travel a thousand miles on foot? Why would Cersei and Euron allow them to leave CR without attacking them?

I think Euron kept his men on the ships and didn't bother trying to fight Unsullied on land, so when he torpedoed the Unsullied ships, he just split, mission accomplished.

Could we not go an episode without the D’s mistaking cock jokes and profanity for mature writing?

Yeah, I don't get that either.

How does it make sense that Bronn would side with Cersei over the queen with dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied and the North on her side?

He's probably still holding onto the Kingslayer's promises, and he seems to have softened towards him.

Just visually, Dany’s entrance on Drogon was lessened by the fact she already did the same thing at least twice this season, once even to an ally.

It was also dumb, since it let Cersei deduce she only had two dragons.

I’m supposed to believe that a schemer like Varys had absolutely nothing to say at the Dragonpit? At the very least, shouldn’t Qyburn or Cersei say something about their traitorous former small council member?

Varys not speaking up may have been to avoid Qyburn's and Cersei's criticisms. Anyway, Qyburn wouldn't speak out of turn, and Cersei was preoccupied with Dany, the wight, and Jon. Anyway, the higher-ups did most of the talking, so Varys may have felt it wasn't his place.

I’m not quite sure what Cersei was asking of Jon. That he wouldn’t attack her while they were allies fighting the White Walkers? Or that he would never move against her ever, even if they won the “Great War”? If it’s the former, why would he do that if they are allies? If it’s the latter, how could she remotely expect him to agree to that? And why would she attempt to negotiate with him since she sees him as a traitor that stole a third of her kingdom?

Cersei wanted Jon to stay out of her war against Dany when the Great War is done, essentially asking him to bend the knee to her. Reasonableness isn't Cersei's forte.

I have to say, the small little “Hollywood” moments of the episode really irritated me. The Hound knocking on the wight’s box (to remind viewers that somehow forgot about it from last episode), the wight not moving or making any noise until it was dumped out. I’m sure there were others, but the point is its inconsistent with the realistic and non-tropey world that was established in the first few seasons. Characters shouldn’t react like they know they’re on a TV show. Real life usually isn’t very dramatic or exciting, it’s often quite mundane and awkward. I can forgive high drama for the big twists or action scenes, but for something low-key and small like this just rubs me the wrong way.

I think the Hound wanted to get the wight agitated, but yeah that moment annoyed me too.

What the hell was the wight hunt even for? How could any of the characters think that it would actually pay off? Why are they trying to get Cersei on their side anyways? What possible use would she be against the WW? Why didn’t Dany simply kill Cersei and Euron at the Dragonpit and take over King’s Landing? So losing Thoros and Viserion was for literally nothing, and was only contrived into existence so that the Night King could get a dragon.

At the very least, Dany and Jon want to get Cersei off their back so they aren't fighting a two-front war. Cersei would need proof for their claims. I don't think they expected Cersei to march with them till she promised her help, which she did at the end.

Cersei’s hunch that something happened to the third dragon was quite a leap. As Jaime said, it could be off guarding something or even hunting for food. The fact that Cersei is the only one with any brains left who can accurately predict what people will do sickens me. Okay D&D, we get it, she’s your favorite. But did you have to make everyone else morons in the process? Couldn’t anyone see that Cersei would never agree to a truce? The fact that it’s almost certain her role in the books won’t be anything similar to this just compounds my frustration. Cersei should’ve died this episode. Why are they stringing out such a boring (but yes, well acted) character so long? And why is it that she’s the craziest person on the show but somehow still able to scheme and manipulate people so perfectly? Why isn’t King’s Landing in open revolt?

Headey is arguably the best actor on that show along with Dinklage. They're not letting her go till they absolutely have to. Anyway, who's to take her place as chief villain -- a Night King with no personality or an annoying *****ebag pirate who is better in (very) small doses? The dragon deduction was dumb, but they needed her to think Dany is weakened. The ship's sailed on the show following the books, at least till the end, maybe.

Littlefinger’s comeuppance was so predictable and boring. As I said when the Arya v Sansa scenes started, there was no secret plan. They really were at each others throats, it wasn’t an act for LF’s benefit to lure him in. It saddens me to see such a mastermind reduced to this (the person responsible for the setting off the Stark/Lannister conflict in the first place), but honestly I’m just glad to see him go. The character’s been useless since he killed Lysa. And shouldn’t Royce have a problem with Sansa sitting on her murder for so long? Why is it okay that she kept it from him and lied to his face? Sansa also comes off very stupid, that it took her until her conversation with Littlefinger THIS EPISODE to finally realize what he was after and how he was attempting to manipulate her.

That whole subplot was idiotic.

I’m not sure which Tyrion I dislike more. The one that tries to teach Missandai and Grey Worm how to make jokes or the one that can’t strategize and instead pouts and constantly glowers disapprovingly. As with so many other characters, there’s nothing interesting or likable about him anymore. I also was not a fan of Jon’s forgiveness. He may not have killed Bran or Rickon, but he betrayed Robb, sacked Winterfell, killed Ser Rodrick, caused Maester Luwin’s death, murdered two innocent young boys and allowed Sansa to be repeatedly raped and abused. Killing Ramsey’s girlfriend and helping Sansa escape doesn’t make up for all of his wrongs, and at the very least it isn’t Jon’s place to forgive him.

Jon said it isn't his place to forgive Theon for all of it. He's letting bygones be bygones, because it's all hands on deck now. The show needed a way to keep Cersei in the game, so it made Tyrion incompetent, but it isn't like Jaimie and Euron shouldn't out-think him in battle anyway.

Ever since season 4 Theon’s done almost nothing of note. It’s bad enough that his Bolton arc was stolen by Sansa, but in place of that the D’s have given him nothing interesting to do. Like Tyrion, they should’ve just pulled a direwolf and killed him off. And the ball-less gag during the fight was just dumb. Getting hit there, even without a dick and/or balls would still hurt. Schoolyard level writing.

Can't argue there.

Why do they insist in putting off the conflict between Jaime and Cersei? Wouldn’t it have been more shocking and GoT-like to actually kill Jaime when she threatened him? Who watching this thought there was a chance he wouldn’t make it out alive? The fact that it took this long for him to leave her (but still not enough to kill her) sickens me. So much for his redemption arc. Too little too late, about 3 years too late in fact.

They're not getting rid of Jaimie till the end either, probably.

I can’t stress enough how lazy and frankly terrible the Bran/Sam montage was. It makes it more abundantly clear than ever that Bran is ridiculously overpowered. If he can so easily see past and current events, why hasn’t anybody utilized this amazing skill until now? Couldn’t Sansa or Arya used this to overcome their catfight? Couldn’t they have gotten advice for the wight hunt? Why can’t he solve almost any problem the characters face in the future? I also can’t understand why Jon was named Aegon when Rhaegar already had a son (who was still alive at the point) with the same name. Seems redundant and silly to me. It’s not like he’s Walder Frey with a hundred children.

Bran is still learning to control his power. He only saw the marriage when Sam told him about the annulment.

And I have to say, Bran constantly chirping out “I’m the Three Eyed Raven” is as annoying as Danny Rand going “I’m the Immortal Iron Fist”. Especially given the fact that no one knows what the term even means.

Also, just on a sensual level, the Jon/Dany love scene did not live up to the hype. It was very short, and the only nudity was a quick flash of Kit’s butt? This is probably THE love story of the entire series, and this is all we get? The one time GoT should’ve delivered on the sex and it dropped the ball? The montage aspect with Bran’s voiceover also killed the mood and any enjoyment that could’ve been had. The scene is never allowed to breathe. And I can’t understand why Tyrion doesn’t approve. He doesn’t know they’re related, but even if he did Targaryens are known for it. Even his parents were cousins. Shouldn’t he be happy, a political marriage between Dany and the North should be great to solidify their power.

I didn't get what Tyrion's problem was, but Clarke's long been done with extensive nudity on the show, and it's not like she and Harrington have a ton of chemistry anyway. Sex isn't always like that, of course, so this may be a deliberate subversion.

By far the most disappointing single sequence was the destruction of the Wall. I may be the only one, but to me the Night King actually riding on Viserion's back was just too over the top, too cartoonish. I’m not sure why I can buy the Nazgul but not this. It just seems to silly, even for me, a dyed in the wool genre fan. Maybe because there’s still no saddle and the NK actor isn’t doing any acting? They really emasculated the character when they recast. They should’ve brought back Richard Brake after the Bastard Executioner was cancelled.

Eh, it was okay.

And a small nitpick, but why were Vision’s wings in tatters? He was only hit by the spear in a single spot on the neck. There’s no reason for that kind of damaged to have accrued since his death, besides the fact that it looks cool. Also, given the fact that his fire-breathing glands were damaged (and becoming a wight does not induce any sort of healing) how is it he’s able to breathe ice fire at all? And logically, Tormund and Beric should be dead, right? They didn’t have time to make it down off the wall. And there’s no way they were far enough on the other side to have escaped the collapse.

Maybe Tormund and Beric are dead (though I doubt it, at least Tormund). Maybe being undead f-ed up Viserion's wings.

But on the whole, my biggest issue is how perfunctory and uninspired the dialogue is. There was a poetry and elegance to GRRM’s writing that the show now clearly lacks. So much of my enjoyment was bound up in the way the character’s could turn a phrase. I’ve said it before, but it really does feel like a Cliff Notes version of the show, or a bad fanfic. It saddens me that I can regularly predict exactly what a character will say.

Yeah, well D&D aren't GRRM, and Martin's not writing for the show anymore. That's just the way it is.

*****************

 

[Iceman]

I liked the scenes between Sansa and Arya when they were speaking alone. Doesn't make the scenes where they were against each other any better but still good to see them go back to Ned's words about the wolfpack surviving unlike the lone wolf.