First of all, AgentPat, I'd be careful of your sources, especially when it comes to traditional media reporting on comic book happenings because their track records for research are incredibly shoddy. The fact of the matter is that Birthright was a story Waid had developed over many years which was initially meant to re-introduce the Maggin version of Superman with modern sensibilities. DC had made known they were looking for a modern revamp project and Waid tailored his concept to that notion. This was not a story Eddie Berganza mandated for Waid to write, though I'm sure editorial had input. Bottom line is that Mark Waid did not sit down to write Birthright with any thought of creating a Smallville-friendly origin.
Again, I stand by my initial assertion that the Birthright continuity is simply incompatible with that of Smallville AS IS. With some considerable rewrites, of COURSE Birthright could be used to cap off Smallville, but there needs to be a good amount of thought invested to how to reconcile numerous and striking differences. You'll notice, though, that at no time did I actually attempt to dissuade or discourage lokmon from his undertaking, though. I was simply pointing out the need for rewrites, as I did not know his level of familiarity with Birthright, his skill as a writer, his consideration for character arcs, etc. So rather than getting into a long discussion about his writing, I simply made a statement of something I thought he needed to seriously consider. Obviously, my statement was misconstrued. Let me further clarify.
You seem so intent on refuting me that you obviously didn't realize that was exactly what I ****ing said. I don't see how you could've interpreted "other than Superman" in any other way. "Other than Superman in the name"? Well, obviously not. "Other than including the character of Superman"? Well, seeing as how he'd be the main character in both, it's pretty safe to say they're both "ABOUT Superman".
Look, Birthright was not written as a way to link the comics to Smallville, only marketed that way by DC in an attempt to cash in on the show as it was at the height of its popularity. And the proof is in the pudding. Just look at the content of the damn story. I really don't need a magazine article to tell me differently when I can examine two things firsthand and compare them. I know you are probably too busy defending the sanctity of Smallville's influence over Superman, DC Comics, science fiction popular culture as a whole, and all of teen drama television to have objectively done so, but it's not that hard to see.
So I will now do it explicitly and at length to hopefully illustrate the correct side of this argument.
My conceit regarding characters' appearances. Realize, the same dialogue could've easily come in the exact same context from folks 10 or 20 years older. Hell, the parents in BR may have actually been intended to be in their late fifties to early sixties, just not as worn down looking as how they've been portrayed before. I have an aunt and uncle in that age bracket who you could argue look younger than the Kents did in BR. Waid MAY have specifically described them in his script (we don't know), but ultimately Jonathan and Martha's appearances are a purely visual issue, which I already alotted for in my original argument.
Okay, so the ignorance of an audience segment is in what way an explanation for the reasons for a creative decision? You failed to link A to C. Waid has admitted his biggest influences for Superman to be Elliot Maggin's work in the Silver Age, which at times dealt heavily with Superboy and young Luthor's relationship and falling out. Seems that could be a definite reason for Waid's inclusion of that element in his own story. And even IF DC editorial asked for that element to be included, the execution in BR is a FAR cry from how Smallville handles it. Stop reaching.
Look, even ignoring the previously established relationships between Clark & Lois, Lex & Lois, and Clark & Perry in SV, which would necessitate some changes in dialogue but not a whole lot in demeanor from BR, there are still heavy differences. Even ignoring the nitpicky things like Martha's UFO obsession in BR, the heavy use of the Kryptonian tablet in BR, the fact that the Planet is solidly a newspaper in SV, and the lack of blankets to construct the costume in Clark's ship (or even the lack of ship now) in Smallville, there are still heavy differences. A lot to rewrite.
They're already turning Clark from someone who wants no part of Krypton into someone genuinely curious about his origins. There's a start, but you definitely have to finish it to gel with BR. You also have to get the kid to accept that Kryptonians were a great people to use any of the origin motivations BR uses. You also have to turn Clark from someone who just wants a normal life into someone yearning for something more, a greater meaning, a greater place. Lots of work to be done there. You also have to turn his character into someone who wants to leave Smallville, which is seemingly contradictory to "aw shucks" SV Clark as he is now. SV Clark is far more akin in character to For All Seasons Clark.
Then there's the problem of Clark already knowing about his origins in SV. That takes away the great Luthor revelation moment, and a lot of that internal yearning for an identity.
Lex Luthor...There's a toughy. For any of Luthor's plan to work, to at all keep him a credible threat and central villain, and to make his backstory as it is in BR work AT ALL, Lex needs to be ostensibly the smartest man on the planet. To me, that's pretty much impossible to do with the SV Lex without making changes to the BR story. Of course, he could just be bankrolling all that wormhole research and astrobiology, but then he seems more like some kingpin-esque hood than the greatest arch-villain on the planet. And of course not making him the smartest man on the planet completely changes his motivations, as the BR Lex was a narcisstic introverted recluse thanks to feeling forever superior to and resultantly ostracized from humanity. It is pretty much these feelings alone which drive his research and his hatred of Superman in BR, and you obviously lose them in translation. Sure, you could try to use the hole "bald son of a billionaire" thing as an out to the same character development, but SV's already shown us a Lex that is at least quite well adjusted socially, and is more than capable of humility (hell, he's probably the character who apologizes most to people who are not Lana, as Clark obviously holds the "apologies to Lana" crown). Major changes necessary concerning Lex.
Then there's also the question of why Lex breaks ties with SV and refuses to recognize a past relationship with Clark. Obviously BR is shot in translation to SV, for all the aforementioned reasons. You'd have to do a good portion of tweaking/rewriting to make that part jive.
Of course Clark and Lex's relationship as it is in BR is completely different from SV. The whole backstory which takes up a good chunk of BR, is null and void in SV.
How about the ridiculousness of what it would take for folks, specifically Lex, not to recognize Clark? In BR, he and Lex had a rocky relationship for a few months when they were pretty young, characterized by long periods of time in which Lex would isolate himself and they would not see each other, and ending when Lex experienced a fantastic trauma. Not too much of a stretch that after 10+ years and hundreds of insignificant people crushed in his rise to power, Lex wouldn't recognize Clark. Then you have SV in which the 2 are literally best friends for at LEAST 4 years until Clark is 18 (not much room for further physical development either, what with 28-yr-old Tom), seeing each other on a semi-daily basis, with Lex continually professing his hetero man-love for Clark, not to mention an extensive knowledge of wierd facts and miraculous life saves all leading back to our young Mr. Kent. But after a few years, I'm sure he wouldn't recognize him at all. Implausible much? Even by comic book standards.
Then there's the revisions lokmon's already directly admitted to, such as the Lana stuff and giving Lex the mysterious tablet.
What does this all amount to?
Basically, the only directly usable portions of BR, other than the Africa subplot, are the introduction of Superman and the staged alien invasion. Otherwise, they are patently CONTRADICTORY.
And since lokmon already said he probably won't even use the staged invasion, the only real segments from BR he can use with faithfulness are the Supes intro and Africa. If you can honestly call that an adaptation, more power to you. Me? I say it's "inspired by". But that's not even the point any more. On another level, this all is a clear indication that BR only jives with SV when it covers ground that SV yet hasn't. Otherwise, they're flat out contradictory!
Well, there's no accounting for ignorance until you give an explanation, eh?
Certain = many. So you end up with a very loose adaptation, which was my point to begin with!!! Argh.
Again, lokmon, none of what I said is in any way a dig against you or your writing. I applaud your efforts and look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Well, seeing as I never once even insinuated that the Donner film had any similarities to Smallville, seeing as it's quite clear that S:TM, SV, and BR are all different interpretations of work others have done in the comics, and also seeing that your comparison b/w S:TM and SV has no bearing on this argument anyways (AND seeing the fact that one can argue Tom Welling basically picked up the character Jeff East was playing, and that all of SV is in some ways an exploration of "what if Pa Kent didn't die in S:TM"), I can say only this to you:
Oh ye fair and level-headed Smallville fan, way to use a completely inappropriate and nonsensical moment to take the obligatory "snicker snicker, intepret it however you want" dig at Singer's film and his vision for it. If nothing else, it will rally the troops behind your otherwise baseless argument, eh?
Again, I stand by my initial assertion that the Birthright continuity is simply incompatible with that of Smallville AS IS. With some considerable rewrites, of COURSE Birthright could be used to cap off Smallville, but there needs to be a good amount of thought invested to how to reconcile numerous and striking differences. You'll notice, though, that at no time did I actually attempt to dissuade or discourage lokmon from his undertaking, though. I was simply pointing out the need for rewrites, as I did not know his level of familiarity with Birthright, his skill as a writer, his consideration for character arcs, etc. So rather than getting into a long discussion about his writing, I simply made a statement of something I thought he needed to seriously consider. Obviously, my statement was misconstrued. Let me further clarify.
AgentPat said:
You seem so intent on refuting me that you obviously didn't realize that was exactly what I ****ing said. I don't see how you could've interpreted "other than Superman" in any other way. "Other than Superman in the name"? Well, obviously not. "Other than including the character of Superman"? Well, seeing as how he'd be the main character in both, it's pretty safe to say they're both "ABOUT Superman".
Look, Birthright was not written as a way to link the comics to Smallville, only marketed that way by DC in an attempt to cash in on the show as it was at the height of its popularity. And the proof is in the pudding. Just look at the content of the damn story. I really don't need a magazine article to tell me differently when I can examine two things firsthand and compare them. I know you are probably too busy defending the sanctity of Smallville's influence over Superman, DC Comics, science fiction popular culture as a whole, and all of teen drama television to have objectively done so, but it's not that hard to see.
So I will now do it explicitly and at length to hopefully illustrate the correct side of this argument.
My conceit regarding characters' appearances. Realize, the same dialogue could've easily come in the exact same context from folks 10 or 20 years older. Hell, the parents in BR may have actually been intended to be in their late fifties to early sixties, just not as worn down looking as how they've been portrayed before. I have an aunt and uncle in that age bracket who you could argue look younger than the Kents did in BR. Waid MAY have specifically described them in his script (we don't know), but ultimately Jonathan and Martha's appearances are a purely visual issue, which I already alotted for in my original argument.
Okay, so the ignorance of an audience segment is in what way an explanation for the reasons for a creative decision? You failed to link A to C. Waid has admitted his biggest influences for Superman to be Elliot Maggin's work in the Silver Age, which at times dealt heavily with Superboy and young Luthor's relationship and falling out. Seems that could be a definite reason for Waid's inclusion of that element in his own story. And even IF DC editorial asked for that element to be included, the execution in BR is a FAR cry from how Smallville handles it. Stop reaching.
Look, even ignoring the previously established relationships between Clark & Lois, Lex & Lois, and Clark & Perry in SV, which would necessitate some changes in dialogue but not a whole lot in demeanor from BR, there are still heavy differences. Even ignoring the nitpicky things like Martha's UFO obsession in BR, the heavy use of the Kryptonian tablet in BR, the fact that the Planet is solidly a newspaper in SV, and the lack of blankets to construct the costume in Clark's ship (or even the lack of ship now) in Smallville, there are still heavy differences. A lot to rewrite.
They're already turning Clark from someone who wants no part of Krypton into someone genuinely curious about his origins. There's a start, but you definitely have to finish it to gel with BR. You also have to get the kid to accept that Kryptonians were a great people to use any of the origin motivations BR uses. You also have to turn Clark from someone who just wants a normal life into someone yearning for something more, a greater meaning, a greater place. Lots of work to be done there. You also have to turn his character into someone who wants to leave Smallville, which is seemingly contradictory to "aw shucks" SV Clark as he is now. SV Clark is far more akin in character to For All Seasons Clark.
Then there's the problem of Clark already knowing about his origins in SV. That takes away the great Luthor revelation moment, and a lot of that internal yearning for an identity.
Lex Luthor...There's a toughy. For any of Luthor's plan to work, to at all keep him a credible threat and central villain, and to make his backstory as it is in BR work AT ALL, Lex needs to be ostensibly the smartest man on the planet. To me, that's pretty much impossible to do with the SV Lex without making changes to the BR story. Of course, he could just be bankrolling all that wormhole research and astrobiology, but then he seems more like some kingpin-esque hood than the greatest arch-villain on the planet. And of course not making him the smartest man on the planet completely changes his motivations, as the BR Lex was a narcisstic introverted recluse thanks to feeling forever superior to and resultantly ostracized from humanity. It is pretty much these feelings alone which drive his research and his hatred of Superman in BR, and you obviously lose them in translation. Sure, you could try to use the hole "bald son of a billionaire" thing as an out to the same character development, but SV's already shown us a Lex that is at least quite well adjusted socially, and is more than capable of humility (hell, he's probably the character who apologizes most to people who are not Lana, as Clark obviously holds the "apologies to Lana" crown). Major changes necessary concerning Lex.
Then there's also the question of why Lex breaks ties with SV and refuses to recognize a past relationship with Clark. Obviously BR is shot in translation to SV, for all the aforementioned reasons. You'd have to do a good portion of tweaking/rewriting to make that part jive.
Of course Clark and Lex's relationship as it is in BR is completely different from SV. The whole backstory which takes up a good chunk of BR, is null and void in SV.
How about the ridiculousness of what it would take for folks, specifically Lex, not to recognize Clark? In BR, he and Lex had a rocky relationship for a few months when they were pretty young, characterized by long periods of time in which Lex would isolate himself and they would not see each other, and ending when Lex experienced a fantastic trauma. Not too much of a stretch that after 10+ years and hundreds of insignificant people crushed in his rise to power, Lex wouldn't recognize Clark. Then you have SV in which the 2 are literally best friends for at LEAST 4 years until Clark is 18 (not much room for further physical development either, what with 28-yr-old Tom), seeing each other on a semi-daily basis, with Lex continually professing his hetero man-love for Clark, not to mention an extensive knowledge of wierd facts and miraculous life saves all leading back to our young Mr. Kent. But after a few years, I'm sure he wouldn't recognize him at all. Implausible much? Even by comic book standards.
Then there's the revisions lokmon's already directly admitted to, such as the Lana stuff and giving Lex the mysterious tablet.
What does this all amount to?
Basically, the only directly usable portions of BR, other than the Africa subplot, are the introduction of Superman and the staged alien invasion. Otherwise, they are patently CONTRADICTORY.
And since lokmon already said he probably won't even use the staged invasion, the only real segments from BR he can use with faithfulness are the Supes intro and Africa. If you can honestly call that an adaptation, more power to you. Me? I say it's "inspired by". But that's not even the point any more. On another level, this all is a clear indication that BR only jives with SV when it covers ground that SV yet hasn't. Otherwise, they're flat out contradictory!
Well, there's no accounting for ignorance until you give an explanation, eh?
Certain = many. So you end up with a very loose adaptation, which was my point to begin with!!! Argh.
Again, lokmon, none of what I said is in any way a dig against you or your writing. I applaud your efforts and look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Well, seeing as I never once even insinuated that the Donner film had any similarities to Smallville, seeing as it's quite clear that S:TM, SV, and BR are all different interpretations of work others have done in the comics, and also seeing that your comparison b/w S:TM and SV has no bearing on this argument anyways (AND seeing the fact that one can argue Tom Welling basically picked up the character Jeff East was playing, and that all of SV is in some ways an exploration of "what if Pa Kent didn't die in S:TM"), I can say only this to you:
Oh ye fair and level-headed Smallville fan, way to use a completely inappropriate and nonsensical moment to take the obligatory "snicker snicker, intepret it however you want" dig at Singer's film and his vision for it. If nothing else, it will rally the troops behind your otherwise baseless argument, eh?
) that will fit seamlessly.
