Should a US president visit the Hiroshima/Nagasaki memorials?

[The Lizard]

I was reading this news story the other day, and got to thinking about the part in bold...

http://news.yahoo.com/story//afp/20080903/pl_afp/japanuswwiinuclearweaponshistoryg8_080903134558

Pelosi wins praise in Hiroshima for bomb visit


HIROSHIMA, Japan (AFP) – US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi won praise Wednesday for becoming the most senior sitting American official to visit Japan's atom bomb memorial at Hiroshima.

Pelosi, second in line to the presidency after Vice President Dick Cheney, on Tuesday laid flowers at a memorial in the southwestern Japanese city, which was obliterated by a US nuclear bomb on August 6, 1945, near the end of World War II.

Her visit to the memorial was splashed on the front pages of local newspapers, which noted that no sitting US president or vice president had visited the site.

Jimmy Carter and Richard Nixon visited the city out of office.

Pelosi was in Hiroshima for a meeting of parliament speakers of the Group of Eight major industrial powers.

"I believe it was significant that they directly saw and heard the city's experience after the nuclear attack," Hiroshima Mayor Tadatoshi Akiba said.

"I think they got the messages from the survivors -- we must not make the same mistake again," Akiba said.

Regardless of the various debates over whether the atomic bomb was truly necessary to end the war with Japan, if it was necessary to bomb Nagasaki in addition to Hiroshima, if the US should have done a better job notifying the targets that they were going to be hit with a devastating weapon, etc -- is it time for a US President to at least visit the Hiroshima memorial to pay respects to the dead?

 

[Matt]

Sure. I mean, its not like we're on bad terms with Japan or anything along those lines. Why not go and pay respect to the massive body count that we caused in one of the darker days of our history (and I'm not saying it shouldn't have been done. I believe it was the only way...but it is still something our country should deeply regret)?

 

[Anubis]

Depends. Is there a memorial set up to honor the memory of all those Chinese civilians and POW's the Japanese slaughtered and performed human rights abuses on? If so, has the Prime Minister of Japan visited those places? If he did, sure. If not, hey, we've all done horrible s**t. Glass houses and all that.

 

[gap5ewl]

We are on good terms with them.

 

[Hobgoblin]

While it would be nice for a sitting US President to visit the memorials, I kinda doubt Japan will ever build a monument honoring the victims of Pearl Harbor. After they start building that, sure, I'd want a President to go to Hiroshima.

But it'll never happen. The Japanese wont even admit to the atrocities against the Chinese during the war. They arent too tearful about Pearl Harbor, either.

http://hnn.us/articles/1475.html

 

[The Lizard]

While it would be nice for a sitting US President to visit the memorials, I kinda doubt Japan will ever build a monument honoring the victims of Pearl Harbor. After they start building that, sure, I'd want a President to go to Hiroshima.

But it'll never happen. The Japanese wont even admit to the atrocities against the Chinese during the war. They arent too tearful about Pearl Harbor, either.

http://hnn.us/articles/1475.html

Not unexpected responses, but some things to consider....

1. Japanese leaders visiting a Chinese memorial to victims of Japan's imperialist wartime atrocities is really an issue between Japan and China, not the US.

2. Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack, but it was still an attack on a military installation. The Japanese fighters didn't go zooming through downtown Honolulu strafing civilians.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, on the other hand had HUGE civilian casualties as a result of the A-bombings.

The use of nuclear weapons on a populace is something that NO ONE in history has done except the US. While wartime motives may have made sense at the time, the unique status of this act still sets it apart from other wartime operations.

 

[DACrowe]

Yes and no. I don't think the US should have to apologize for that incredibly harrowing, but tragically right decision. If one appears they will be questioned to defend the position made over 60 years ago, and there is nothing to defend.

 

[The Senator]

While it would be nice for a sitting US President to visit the memorials, I kinda doubt Japan will ever build a monument honoring the victims of Pearl Harbor. After they start building that, sure, I'd want a President to go to Hiroshima.

But it'll never happen. The Japanese wont even admit to the atrocities against the Chinese during the war. They arent too tearful about Pearl Harbor, either.

http://hnn.us/articles/1475.html

I've got a question:

Why can't we be the better country? Why is it that every time there is a question of foreign policy, we always have to say "well, if ______ does _____ first, we'll budge?"

Why can't we make a symbolic gesture every once and a while and not expect anything in return?

 

[Hobgoblin]

Not unexpected responses, but some things to consider....

1. Japanese leaders visiting a Chinese memorial to victims of Japan's imperialist wartime atrocities is really an issue between Japan and China, not the US.

2. Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack, but it was still an attack on a military installation. The Japanese fighters didn't go zooming through downtown Honolulu strafing civilians.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, on the other hand had HUGE civilian casualties as a result of the A-bombings.

The use of nuclear weapons on a populace is something that NO ONE in history has done except the US. While wartime motives may have made sense at the time, the unique status of this act still sets it apart from other wartime operations.

I agree, I just think its something to keep in mind. The Japanese Military Museum is an example of history not being dictated by the victors. More like covering their own butts, which, admittedly, the US is just as guilty of. Also, if Japan or Germany had the bomb before the war's end, no doubt they would have used it.

I've got a question:

Why can't we be the better country? Why is it that every time there is a question of foreign policy, we always have to say "well, if ______ does _____ first, we'll budge?"

Why can't we make a symbolic gesture every once and a while and not expect anything in return?

In most instances, I would agree with you. In the case of the Japanese, however, they downplay the Rape of Nanking and refuse to admit wrong doing in Pearl Harbor. If i think they would get off their high horses, I would gladly take the first step in a US Hiroshima Monument. And as I said a moment ago, I admit the US is just as arrogant as the Japanese.

 

[The Senator]

I agree, I just think its something to keep in mind. The Japanese Military Museum is an example of history not being dictated by the victors. More like covering their own butts, which, admittedly, the US is just as guilty of.

In most instances, I would agree with you. In the case of the Japanese, however, they downplay the Rape of Nanking and refuse to admit wrong doing in Pearl Harbor. If i think they would get off their high horses, I would gladly take the first step in a US Hiroshima Monument. And as I said a moment ago, I admit the US is just as arrogant as the Japanese.

To be fair though, the United States dropped two atomic bombs on their cities, rewrote their constitution, and has been watching over them like a hawk for the past sixty years. Hell, we have even decided their foreign policy for the duration of that period. They have been one of our strongest allies since the end of WWII. While there may be resentment from their government towards us, I personally believe they have every right to feel that way (and the majority of them do not feel that way towards us at all).

Sometimes, the United States needs to stop acting holier-than-thou and actually acknowledge when it has committed an atrocity, instead of glossing over it with phrases such as "it was a necessary evil*." It would be a symbolic gesture on our part. All of this talk about "when will the Japanese apologize to China????!" or "When will Japan apologize to America???!" totally shows how childish we as a country are. We have to be the leaders, as the largest superpower in the world. If we cannot lead, and set the example, then how the hell can we expect other countries to do the same? The arrogance of the Japanese is no different than the arrogance of the Americans.


(*which, sadly, is the way I see it; but that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge the FACT that we murdered innocent lives with the most evil invention mankind ever created).

 

[Hobgoblin]

To be fair though, the United States dropped two atomic bombs on their cities, rewrote their constitution, and has been watching over them like a hawk for the past sixty years. Hell, we have even decided their foreign policy for the duration of that period. They have been one of our strongest allies since the end of WWII. While there may be resentment from their government towards us, I personally believe they have every right to feel that way (and the majority of them do not feel that way towards us at all).

Sometimes, the United States needs to stop acting holier-than-thou and actually acknowledge when it has committed an atrocity, instead of glossing over it with phrases such as "it was a necessary evil*." It would be a symbolic gesture on our part. All of this talk about "when will the Japanese apologize to China????!" or "When will Japan apologize to America???!" totally shows how childish we as a country are. We have to be the leaders, as the largest superpower in the world. If we cannot lead, and set the example, then how the hell can we expect other countries to do the same? The arrogance of the Japanese is no different than the arrogance of the Americans.


(*which, sadly, is the way I see it; but that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge the FACT that we murdered innocent lives with the most evil invention mankind ever created).

Totally, absolutely agree with the bolded part. I dislike people that revel in America's abuse of power too. Please dont think of me as one of them.

Logically, I know you have a point. But emotionally, it just seems wrong. I dunno man. I need to think this one out.

 

[The Lizard]

We have to be the leaders, as the largest superpower in the world. If we cannot lead, and set the example, then how the hell can we expect other countries to do the same? The arrogance of the Japanese is no different than the arrogance of the Americans.

This is pretty much the way I feel about it. The Japanese government might have a ways to go in fully acknowledging WWII crimes, but that has nothing to do with our national conscience.

Being the most powerful nation in the world doesn't mean we just get to play hard-ass enforcer all the time. Mending wounds is part of that role too. After all "with great power comes great responsibility".

 

[Mr Sparkle]

some things to think about from a neutral outsider.

It is oft times easy to forget that the attack on Pearl Harbor was not exactly unprovoked. it was, as you were a "preemptive strike", as you will understand when you read about the dynamic in relationships between the Empire and the US prior to US involvement in WWII.
now, the US knew it was forcing Japan's hand, but it also had interests in, I believe, Manila ( or some other place, something about rubber production) and when it saw Japanese expansionism as a threat to it's interests it tried to choke the Empire, in effect setting in motion the events that would lead to US involvement in the conflict.
that being said, the Japanese were INSANE during the war because they had religious fervor about it, you have to remember that the History of Shinto Buddhism in Japan was strong and everyone that was in some way better or bigger or awe inspiring in anyway was "divine" in other words, they fought for their emperor who they believed was a sort of deity.
"kamikaze" means "divine wind" not "death wind" or "death from above wind" why do you think that is?
so, while it doesn't justify them, it does explain their viciousness when pursuing the expansion of the empire, ironically enough adapted from a faith that was based on the search of compassion and wisdom (sound familiar?) so they committed horrible atrocities, but, sadly, so did everyone in WWII.
everyone.
in Japan's defense though, and like The Lizard Mentioned, Pearl Harbor was a Military target and when the bomb sites for the two A-bombs were selected, military targets were also offered, but the US command deemed that civilian targets would have a greater "psychological impact" (again, that sounds familiar) and thus chose them.
and while Pearl Harbor was hideous, soldiers know war.
I've seen photos of Children charred and half-dead women, with their flesh almost falling away from their side.

It just seems like....I don't know.
I really don't.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Well, I guess someone needs to get the ball rolling on healing the WW2 wounds. Since the Japanese wont do it, I guess we need to be the better country. War is so convoluted, there is hardly ever a clear cut good guy/bad guy scenario.

I always get in trouble for saying this, but the Germans have really done well to make amends after the war. Lots of monuments to the dead and being contrite. It just bugs me that others wont even acknowledge wrong doing, yet now and forever, Germans will be seen as evil personified. That said, I dislike Americans who say "We kicked ass single handedly, thats how bad ass America is." Just shows how ignorant people can be.

 

[JackMercy]

I've got a question:

Why can't we be the better country? Why is it that every time there is a question of foreign policy, we always have to say "well, if ______ does _____ first, we'll budge?"

Why can't we make a symbolic gesture every once and a while and not expect anything in return?

 

[chamber-music]

To be fair though, the United States dropped two atomic bombs on their cities, rewrote their constitution, and has been watching over them like a hawk for the past sixty years. Hell, we have even decided their foreign policy for the duration of that period. They have been one of our strongest allies since the end of WWII. While there may be resentment from their government towards us, I personally believe they have every right to feel that way (and the majority of them do not feel that way towards us at all).

Sometimes, the United States needs to stop acting holier-than-thou and actually acknowledge when it has committed an atrocity, instead of glossing over it with phrases such as "it was a necessary evil*." It would be a symbolic gesture on our part. All of this talk about "when will the Japanese apologize to China????!" or "When will Japan apologize to America???!" totally shows how childish we as a country are. We have to be the leaders, as the largest superpower in the world. If we cannot lead, and set the example, then how the hell can we expect other countries to do the same? The arrogance of the Japanese is no different than the arrogance of the Americans.


(*which, sadly, is the way I see it; but that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge the FACT that we murdered innocent lives with the most evil invention mankind ever created).

Well said. If you want to lead by example thats the way to do it. I actully think alot of people would respect the US a lot if they took some sort of gesture towards the bombing.

 

[Ocramed]

I find it interesting that people want to judge a military decision AFTER THE FACT. We weren't there, and had it not been for the US, right or wrong, the Communists would have taken over the island, as they did Eastern Europe. And quite frankly, 100,000s of more lives would have been lost, had the bombs not been dropped.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

had bombs been dropped on military targets though?
better solution.
because as the GOP has been telling us ( and we already knew) targeting civilians is abominable.


isn't it?

 

[The Senator]

I find it interesting that people want to judge a military decision AFTER THE FACT. We weren't there, and had it not been for the US, right or wrong, the Communists would have taken over the island, as they did Eastern Europe. And quite frankly, 100,000s of more lives would have been lost, had the bombs not been dropped.

You know nothing about Japanese history.

"The Communists" would not have taken over Japan, the Japanese government would not have allowed such a thing to happen. China did not have a strong military until the end of Mao's legacy, and the USSR would not have wasted their time with them. Japan's military was arguably far more superior than anything the Chinese or USSR could have unleashed on them. Moreover, the Diet would have continued ruling the Japanese government well into the distant future, if not up until today.

The reason we dropped the bomb was to avoid thousands of US fatalities and bring an end to a war which had already gone on too long (though, funny thing, it took less time to win WWII than it has Iraq). Communism never would have spread to Japan.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

plus, let us not forget that the ONLY reason that Japan took up with Germany was to protect itself from the communists.

 

[JLBats]

I honestly don't buy into the "necessary evil" argument.

Maybe as I get older that'll change, but as it stands, I think mutual arrogance lead to the bombings, and they could've easily been avoided for some saner course, if the US hadn't demanded the Emperor on a plate, if they had listened to the rumbles of a conditional surrender and agreed to it, etc.

So yes, I think a sitting US president should visit the bombing sites. They are owed that by a country that committed an unnecessary act and then spent 60 years revising history to make it seem like the sanest, most logical course of action.

 

[The Lizard]

I was at the Hiroshima Peace Memorial last year, and I must admit that the materials there are presented in a rather balanced way. It really makes you think more about how the A-bombing was handled when you actually see copies of the letters of protest composed by US scientists concerning the plan to drop the bombs on areas with a civilian populace without first issuing warnings to the Japanese government.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Logically, I know you have a point. But emotionally, it just seems wrong. I dunno man. I need to think this one out.

But when it comes to international matters, shouldn't we think more logically then emotionally? When we make decisions with our emotions, we'll let facts and consequences slide--things that seem to just make things worse. I mean, the War on Terror created out of emotional reasoning.

 

[JLBats]

I would like to ask whether anyone here would support use of the bombs again today were it a similar situation.

Remove Harry S. Truman from this equation.
If George W. Bush were about to make the same decision, how would you feel?

 

[Superman4ever]

To be fair though, the United States dropped two atomic bombs on their cities, rewrote their constitution, and has been watching over them like a hawk for the past sixty years. Hell, we have even decided their foreign policy for the duration of that period. They have been one of our strongest allies since the end of WWII. While there may be resentment from their government towards us, I personally believe they have every right to feel that way (and the majority of them do not feel that way towards us at all).

Sometimes, the United States needs to stop acting holier-than-thou and actually acknowledge when it has committed an atrocity, instead of glossing over it with phrases such as "it was a necessary evil*." It would be a symbolic gesture on our part. All of this talk about "when will the Japanese apologize to China????!" or "When will Japan apologize to America???!" totally shows how childish we as a country are. We have to be the leaders, as the largest superpower in the world. If we cannot lead, and set the example, then how the hell can we expect other countries to do the same? The arrogance of the Japanese is no different than the arrogance of the Americans.


(*which, sadly, is the way I see it; but that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge the FACT that we murdered innocent lives with the most evil invention mankind ever created).

It is oft times easy to forget that the attack on Pearl Harbor was not exactly unprovoked. it was, as you were a "preemptive strike", as you will understand when you read about the dynamic in relationships between the Empire and the US prior to US involvement in WWII.
now, the US knew it was forcing Japan's hand, but it also had interests in, I believe, Manila ( or some other place, something about rubber production) and when it saw Japanese expansionism as a threat to it's interests it tried to choke the Empire, in effect setting in motion the events that would lead to US involvement in the conflict.
that being said, the Japanese were INSANE during the war because they had religious fervor about it, you have to remember that the History of Shinto Buddhism in Japan was strong and everyone that was in some way better or bigger or awe inspiring in anyway was "divine" in other words, they fought for their emperor who they believed was a sort of deity.
"kamikaze" means "divine wind" not "death wind" or "death from above wind" why do you think that is?
so, while it doesn't justify them, it does explain their viciousness when pursuing the expansion of the empire, ironically enough adapted from a faith that was based on the search of compassion and wisdom (sound familiar?) so they committed horrible atrocities, but, sadly, so did everyone in WWII.
everyone.
in Japan's defense though, and like The Lizard Mentioned, Pearl Harbor was a Military target and when the bomb sites for the two A-bombs were selected, military targets were also offered, but the US command deemed that civilian targets would have a greater "psychological impact" (again, that sounds familiar) and thus chose them.
and while Pearl Harbor was hideous, soldiers know war.
I've seen photos of Children charred and half-dead women, with their flesh almost falling away from their side.