Should Aquaman have taken place elsewhere?

[Flash525]

I watched Aquaman yesterday, thought it was a solid film hopefully one that'll push the DCEU upwards, though I'll save an actual review for another thread.

Now, obviously Aquaman and the comics that predate this film are set on Earth, deep within the ocean, but I can't help but wonder whether the whole feature would have made more sense had it taken place on another planet (maybe one in the Pegasus Galaxy?)

In all serious though, Aquaman had the scale and scope of both Thor: Ragnarök and Black Panther for me, but I can't quite get my head around the concept that there's this entire ecosystem by sentient beings living underwater, and not once have they been involved in surface conflicts.

Man of Steel had Zod and his Kryptonian army attempt to terraform the planet. This would surely have wiped out the entire aquatic cultures, they were never once seen. Wonder Woman had Ares who wanted to turn the world into a battlefield - again one that would have likely destroyed elements of the underwater culture. Surely these Atlantians have the capability to keep tabs on surface events?

Then we've got Steppenwolf and his Parademons, who after attacking the ocean dwellers, were left to (again) terraform the world and only a single (half) Atlantian showed up to stop him. I just think, had this film and the whole Atlantis concept been on a different planet, there'd be less question that we could ask. These ocean dwellers obviously have a vast array of weaponry, and yet they don't use it when they're under threat?

Come the next invasion (be that Darksied or someone else) when Arthur comes to the surface to help Bruce, Clark, Diana and co, are the rest of his people just going to stay at the bottom of the ocean with their military might and do nothing?

 

[The Shape]

To answer the questions posed in the thread title...

No.

 

[The Guard]

No. I don't see how not seeing Atlantis is any different than not seeing any other part of Earth in previous films.

There's nothing to suggest they haven't been involved in conflicts with the surface before, just that humanity is largely unaware of their existence. I like the idea that we're coming into the story at the point where the conflicts between Atlantis and the surface world begin.

 

[rebellion]

.... Absolutely not.

 

[Flash525]

There's nothing to suggest they haven't been involved in conflicts with the surface before, just that humanity is largely unaware of their existence. I like the idea that we're coming into the story at the point where the conflicts between Atlantis and the surface world begin.

The thing is, if the DCEU goes ahead and we do get a sequel to the Justice League, they're going to kinda' need a solid explanation as to why the Atlantian King is on the surface fighting for his people (and the planet) with the rest of the league, whilst the Atlantian Army remains below just chilling.

Doesn't a King ride with his troops, and not in their stead? Arthur is a King now, and has responsibilities; surely he'd be more likely to send aid, than be aid himself. The obvious problem here is that if they did that, then we'd not see The Justice League as we want to see them; instead we'd witness Atantian soldiers (presumably) working alongside the soldiers of the surface in fighting an alien threat, and the films are going to want to focus on the titular heroes, but a reason or explanation at the very least wouldn't go amiss.

 

[The Guard]

So then explain it.

What’s the issue?

 

[Flash525]

So then explain it.

What’s the issue?

The issue is, I don't think it will be explained. It'll be overlooked, and then left to us, the audience, to draw our own conclusion. I don't like open ended situations like this. The MCU has (in my opinion) handled this rather well, because generally no hero has needed to intervene in the goings on of another, but the scope Aquaman has just introduced changes that.

 

[harlequinade]

You mean like when Tony Stark's house was destroyed by a terrorist and he was wandering around with no help from other Avengers?

 

[The Guard]

The issue is, I don't think it will be explained. It'll be overlooked, and then left to us, the audience, to draw our own conclusion. I don't like open ended situations like this. The MCU has (in my opinion) handled this rather well, because generally no hero has needed to intervene in the goings on of another, but the scope Aquaman has just introduced changes that.

You...don’t think it will be explained if a character who just became king suddenly has to stand against his people?

Kay.

You’re obviously not familiar with the nature of Aquaman as a king and that this is largely his key conflict. Comics have been telling his “protector of two worlds” story for decades. This film even nodded at if. I think the filmmakers will figure it out.

 

[Flash525]

You mean like when Tony Stark's house was destroyed by a terrorist and he was wandering around with no help from other Avengers?

Tony's house being destroyed wasn't an Avengers issue; they can't all be expected to run to their fellow Avengers every time one of them gets into trouble. Add to the fact, nobody at that time knew where Stark ended up. By the time he'd picked himself back up and arrived home he was ready with all the knowledge he had to take on the threat. It was his journey.

You...don’t think it will be explained if a character who just became king suddenly has to stand against his people?

What? No, that's not remotely what I'm saying.

If Earth comes under attack again, Arthur will join Bruce, Clark, Diana and co to reform the Justice League to defeat said threat. This is pretty much a given. What'll be overlooked is that Arthur will have an entire army undersea with advanced weaponry that quite likely wont be used to assist in said fight, and the reason for that (I don't think) will be explained.

 

[harlequinade]

So Avengers can go to space but cannot track one of their own?

And that's OK but Arthur leaving behind his army to protect the underwater kingdom is not?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

SIGH...

This is NO different than the comics. Asgardian armies aren't always called in by Thor for every story. Wonder Woman stories don't necessarily have to include every Amazon warrior at her disposal. Black Panther when on an adventure with the Avengers doesn't have to bring all the Wakandan military with him. Hell... Batman doesn't need to bring the JLA into every single case he takes on.

Look... This is the nature of these stories.

Yeah... It's more "Logically airtight" to a certain degree. But... We all bent logic to the breaking point when we decided we were into these flights of fancy called super heroes who could not exist as they are without them breaking total logic into itsy bitsy pieces.

And while it's slightly more logical there's still not too much of an issue with these heroes being away from their place of origin while fighting evil in the wider world.

 

[Mindreaper21]

No. The world is 70% water filled with things that we don't know even exists. Let's stick to exploring more of that.

 

[Flash525]

So Avengers can go to space but cannot track one of their own

When did the Avengers go into space? Nobody (Earthbound) has intergalactic capabilities. No Avenger has gone into space, unless you're counting Stark, Parker and Strange, but that was completely circumstantial to the situation and thus bares no basis on the other Avengers not being able to find Stark when he went dark.

And that's OK but Arthur leaving behind his army to protect the underwater kingdom is not?

Firstly, in such a situation, shouldn't it be 'an army' that defends the kingdom whilst the king remains within? At the very least, a small force of elite soldiers should accompany their King on his surface ventures. Secondly, what use is an underwater army if the surface is all but obliterated by an extra terrestrial foe that could have been stopped had said army been there fighting in the first wave?

This is NO different than the comics. Asgardian armies aren't always called in by Thor for every story. Wonder Woman stories don't necessarily have to include every Amazon warrior at her disposal. Black Panther when on an adventure with the Avengers doesn't have to bring all the Wakandan military with him. Hell... Batman doesn't need to bring the JLA into every single case he takes on.

Asgard is another planet/realm, and thus irrelevant to the point (cause Atlantis is on Earth). Within the DCEU, it was implied (or outright said) that the other Amazon women can't leave Themyscira, so they couldn't help even if they wanted too. Neither Black Panther nor Batman have (to my knowledge) had to deal with an alien invasion by themselves.

I'm not talking about a petty criminal that's a threat to a single town/city/group of people here. I'm talking about an invasion scale assault (similar to Steppenwolf and his Parademons, or Zod and his world changing devices); both had the potential to wipe out the entire planet, and not a single Atlantian (short of Arthur) intervened.

Yeah... It's more "Logically airtight" to a certain degree. But... We all bent logic to the breaking point when we decided we were into these flights of fancy called super heroes who could not exist as they are without them breaking total logic into itsy bitsy pieces.

And while it's slightly more logical there's still not too much of an issue with these heroes being away from their place of origin while fighting evil in the wider world.

And that's the heart of it, which is why I posed the initial question. Thor couldn't call in the other Avengers when Asgard was under siege because it's a different world, much in the same way the Avengers can't summon Thor. The Asgardians have only intervened themselves when the Earth was under global threat due to no fault of it's own, hence the Asgardian battles (on Earth) with the Frost Giants.

No. The world is 70% water filled with things that we don't know even exists. Let's stick to exploring more of that.

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what relevance this has to the point I'm trying to make? I'm not remotely suggesting that the ocean isn't explored in the sequels.

 

[The Guard]

What? No, that's not remotely what I'm saying.

If Earth comes under attack again, Arthur will join Bruce, Clark, Diana and co to reform the Justice League to defeat said threat. This is pretty much a given. What'll be overlooked is that Arthur will have an entire army undersea with advanced weaponry that quite likely wont be used to assist in said fight, and the reason for that (I don't think) will be explained.

I don’t understand why you assume that he won’t have his army at hand, or some contingent of them. If they are needed and called for and he doesn’t utilize them, odds are there’s a political reason he can’t (mutiny, etc) or he simply doesn’t need them. Again, I think filmmkers will figure it out. The Atlantean and Themysciran forces hve been called out several times for major events in the comics.

 

[Mindreaper21]

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what relevance this has to the point I'm trying to make? I'm not remotely suggesting that the ocean isn't explored in the sequels.

The title of this thread is " Should Aquaman Have Taken Place Elsewhere?". You then suggested that it take place on another planet. You went on to say " I can't quite get my head around the concept that there's this entire ecosystem by sentient beings living underwater, and not once have they been involved in surface conflicts."

I responded with no and mentioned the world is 70% water filled with things that we don't know even exists. My point being that the oceans are vast and there is a lot more going on down there than on the surface. Things are down there that we do not know exist including wars, conflicts and problems of their own. Why should the world under water place their problems on hold to concern themselves with the other 30% of the world while there are many other heroes that already protect the surface? Not to mention the fact that only the high borns can breathe out of water. Its not like Atlanteans were just down there playing checkers. You also have to take their politics into account. Arthur is the one true king that was M.I.A and Orm did not have the authority to do anything. This is why he had to earn the title of Ocean Master in order to attack the surface. You have already seen how The Brine went to war with them, because they were opposed to what Orm wanted to do. We have no confirmation on what happened underwater during the events of MoS and BvS nor can we just assume that no one did anything at all. This is why I say let's just stick to exploring what is going on underwater, because that is it's own world and it would be unnecessarily complex to involve other planets when we hardly understand whats going on below.

So, my answer is "no" to the question at hand, I have given my point of view as to why it should not have taken place on another planet nor anywhere else, and I have provided my point of view as to why these sentient beings have not involved themselves in the surface world's conflicts. Like Aquaman said in JL, "I don't mind if the ocean rises". I'm sure many of those under water shares that same opinion since they are the majority while the surface dwellers are the minority.

I'm pretty sure that is relevant.

 

[frankgutz]

I believe it's ok to have this universe on earth, ppl love to believe there's something more, that's why some ppl believe in God, ghosts, ufos, etc... it also makes more rich the mytology of the DC universe, so im ok with that.

About imagining if there's war between other race from space who come to earth, we will need aid on the oceans/water, who knows, maybe they're fighting in the oceans too

 

[Flash525]

I don’t understand why you assume that he won’t have his army at hand, or some contingent of them. If they are needed and called for and he doesn’t utilize them, odds are there’s a political reason he can’t (mutiny, etc) or he simply doesn’t need them. Again, I think filmmkers will figure it out. The Atlantean and Themysciran forces hve been called out several times for major events in the comics.

Because we (should?) all know very well that if there's ever a Justice League sequel, it's going to be about the league, and what they're doing; it's not going to suddenly involve an Atlantian army, just as it's not going to feature the National Guard, or Nato (etc).

Per the DCEU, the other forces of Themyscira can't leave that island. Presumably they'll lose their immortality or something if they do? Or they're otherwise bound there by magic with Diana being the exception due to her origin.

I responded with no and mentioned the world is 70% water filled with things that we don't know even exists. My point being that the oceans are vast and there is a lot more going on down there than on the surface. Things are down there that we do not know exist including wars, conflicts and problems of their own. Why should the world under water place their problems on hold to concern themselves with the other 30% of the world while there are many other heroes that already protect the surface? Not to mention the fact that only the high borns can breathe out of water. Its not like Atlanteans were just down there playing checkers. You also have to take their politics into account. Arthur is the one true king that was M.I.A and Orm did not have the authority to do anything. This is why he had to earn the title of Ocean Master in order to attack the surface. You have already seen how The Brine went to war with them, because they were opposed to what Orm wanted to do. We have no confirmation on what happened underwater during the events of MoS and BvS nor can we just assume that no one did anything at all. This is why I say let's just stick to exploring what is going on underwater, because that is it's own world and it would be unnecessarily complex to involve other planets when we hardly understand whats going on below.

Well, firstly, thank you for expanding on your previous comment.

I guess I just can't fathom why Arthur would go topside alone. If there's conflict underwater, then presumably someone is going to need to make decisions as per the factors of that conflict. Would someone else (Mera maybe?) be expected to make those decisions if her husband/king was up on the surface helping with a bigger problem?

I also get that these guys wouldn't concern themselves with the surface if they had their own oceanic problems, but they did seem to keep track of what was going on topside, so surely they'd have been aware of Zod and what he intended to do (which in turn, would have wiped them all out too). I think a reference would have been nice, even something as simple as Mera telling Arthur that it all happened too quickly and nobody knew what to do or something to that effect; it would at least have been referenced and not overlooked. A small nod to the fans?

 

[The Guard]

Because we (should?) all know very well that if there's ever a Justice League sequel, it's going to be about the league, and what they're doing; it's not going to suddenly involve an Atlantian army, just as it's not going to feature the National Guard, or Nato (etc).

Per the DCEU, the other forces of Themyscira can't leave that island. Presumably they'll lose their immortality or something if they do? Or they're otherwise bound there by magic with Diana being the exception due to her origin.

No. We don’t know that. The comics don’t bear out that Arthur never calls the Atlanteans into service during major events. Regarding Themyscira, the presentation of the concept is vague enough that it can easily be worked with.

 

[Flash525]

No. We don’t know that. The comics don’t bear out that Arthur never calls the Atlanteans into service during major events. Regarding Themyscira, the presentation of the concept is vague enough that it can easily be worked with.

But we can make valid based assumptions. A Justice League sequel isn't very likely to involve or include the Atlantian army in much fashion, if any, just as it's not very likely to include the other armies of the world. I didn't see the Russians rushing with their military might to take on Steppenwolf and his minions when he'd started to reform that Russian village; there wasn't even a single Mig in sight.

Regarding Themyscira, it's possible it can be resolved, as we only know that they can't currently leave their island. I'm sure whatever is keeping them there has a workaround. The only obstacle would be writers block, but even then, they're still warrior women armed with shields and swords. We know how poorly they ultimately fared against a few German soldiers during WW2; they're not bulletproof.

 

[2kt09]

But we can make valid based assumptions. A Justice League sequel isn't very likely to involve or include the Atlantian army in much fashion, if any, just as it's not very likely to include the other armies of the world. I didn't see the Russians rushing with their military might to take on Steppenwolf and his minions when he'd started to reform that Russian village; there wasn't even a single Mig in sight.

Regarding Themyscira, it's possible it can be resolved, as we only know that they can't currently leave their island. I'm sure whatever is keeping them there has a workaround. The only obstacle would be writers block, but even then, they're still warrior women armed with shields and swords. We know how poorly they ultimately fared against a few German soldiers during WW2; they're not bulletproof.

final JL cut had one cop on the memorial scene (literal cardboard background prop) and not even the cop shown in trailers

The Amazons of old were involved in that ancient war. Was that implied to take place in Themyscira?

 

[Flash525]

The Amazons of old were involved in that ancient war. Was that implied to take place in Themyscira?

Those Amazons lived alongside the Gods; maybe when they (mostly) perished, the reason for their entrapment came about? I'm speculating, because we obviously don't know much at this point. It's something I'd like Wonder Woman 3 (or another DC film) to expand upon.

If the surface is becoming aware of the Atlantians, then they should also soon become aware of the Amazonians. I do wonder too what may happen if a Flashpoint film is ever released, because (per Flashpoint) Atlantis and Themyscira are at war, yet Atlantis has millions (if not billions) of Atlantians, whereas Themyscira can't have more than a few hundred thousand Amazonians. Doesn't quite seem a fair fight.

 

[2kt09]

Those Amazons lived alongside the Gods; maybe when they (mostly) perished, the reason for their entrapment came about? I'm speculating, because we obviously don't know much at this point. It's something I'd like Wonder Woman 3 (or another DC film) to expand upon.

If the surface is becoming aware of the Atlantians, then they should also soon become aware of the Amazonians. I do wonder too what may happen if a Flashpoint film is ever released, because (per Flashpoint) Atlantis and Themyscira are at war, yet Atlantis has millions (if not billions) of Atlantians, whereas Themyscira can't have more than a few hundred thousand Amazonians. Doesn't quite seem a fair fight.

They did put up a better fight against Steppenwolf in that game of keep-away.

 

[Flash525]

They did put up a better fight against Steppenwolf in that game of keep-away.

That they did, but he was armed with a hammer, and not a projectile; Atlantian soldiers have guns. Amazonian soldiers have swords. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who has the advantage here.

 

[2kt09]

That they did, but he was armed with a hammer, and not a projectile; Atlantian soldiers have guns. Amazonian soldiers have swords. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who has the advantage here.

They have magical shields and bows, which I'm surprised how little of them we see.