Should the new Batman movies go fantastical?

I for one don't like Man-Bat and think it's one of the dumbest ideas they can do next.

Not if he's a truly terrifying force. Nolan did "grounded" Batman beautifully, but now we have the opportunity to feature antagonists who won't necessarily be in their human or humanoid forms 100% of the time. Plus, with today's FX capabilities, Man-Bat will look great.

and Man-Bat was a rip-off of Conners anyhow.

Or he would be if The Lizard was The Spider. :cwink:

I can see it now. A ton of you will be disappointed when the news comes out that the film is featuring a middle-aged Joker or some detective mystery involving Riddler.

I'd like to see an updated Riddler. The version of Penguin from Batman: Earth One would translate to film easily enough. Another Joker will be a disadvantage, I'm afraid. Yes, he's Batman's Numero Uno Archnemesis, but they'll end up writing him to act like like Heath's. We will see another Joker, but he doesn't need to be the first Batvillain out of the gate. They're better off going with Hugo Strange.
 
Why would anyone be disappointed in a new Batman movie featuring Joker or Riddler? I just don't want the filmmakers to outright dismiss the more fantastical rogues as being impossibilities for some misrepresented sense of realism.
 
I just don't want the filmmakers to outright dismiss the more fantastical rogues as being impossibilities for some misrepresented sense of realism.

If Marvel can get away with an attitudinal talking forest critter (in outer space), DC should be able to present a horrifying, fearless man-animal hybrid.
 
Not if he's a truly terrifying force. Nolan did "grounded" Batman beautifully, but now we have the opportunity to feature antagonists who won't necessarily be in their human or humanoid forms 100% of the time. Plus, with today's FX capabilities, Man-Bat will look great.
I have no doubt that Man-Bat will look terrifying these days. That's not what i worry about. The whole idea of the character is sort-of facepalm worthy to me since i feel like i can go watch any other comic book movie, especially Spider-Man for instance, and see a villain who falls victim to some scientific experiment (or chooses to whatever) becoming a half man/half animal hybrid. It's been done to death.

I'd like to see an updated Riddler. The version of Penguin from Batman: Earth One would translate to film easily enough. Another Joker will be a disadvantage, I'm afraid. Yes, he's Batman's Numero Uno Archnemesis, but they'll end up writing him to act like like Heath's. We will see another Joker, but he doesn't need to be the first Batvillain out of the gate. They're better off going with Hugo Strange.
Why would they write him to act like Heath? They're making a conscious effort to seperate Affleck to Bale, by diving headfirst into Frank Millers characterization and perhaps things like Kevin Conroys Batman, Justice League etc. They'll do the same with Joker. All they have to do is look at The Dark Knight Returns Joker, model him physically and mentally off of that character. Maybe mix it with another version too and you're set. I guarantee it will be nothing like Heath. Just like Heath was nothing like Jack.

They have to show Joker, even if it's just in a cameo. Ill go as far as saying this batman will not feel definitive to me unless i get a Joker to Ben Affleck's Batman. Ill feel cheated.

But i can live with it if they choose not to give us a Joker centric story. I dont think it's too soon after TDK if they make sure he's a different Joker in look, feel and age. But i dont mind them holding off on centering the whole movie around him since it will only be a decade since we've seen the previous version.

Hugo Strange is a great idea for a main villain, so is Mr. Freeze if they make a few adjustments, same with Riddler AND Penguin. Pain and Prejudice convinced me that he can carry his own film but i do see how a supporting role could suit him better. Black Mask is another good idea as a small role.

Ill never really care about Riddler but i see the marketing and writing potential in making him the number one threat. But they shouldn't give him too much screentime in that case. Which is why another villain would work, one that gets more screentime. Hugo Strange fits well alongside Riddler or Joker. But i was thinking of a future series with a different actor, younger Bats with Strange as the mastermind behind Man-Bat, Killer Croc and Clayface. If you're going to have Man-Bat you may as well link him to Hugo Strange. So i can't see that happening yet when they have to do the Batfleck film as a one-off where they have to say goodbye to a lot of characters (my belief is that Justice League Two will be the end of Ben's Batman).

Hold off on Freeze as well. Nobody has responded to my idea yet but i feel like Victor should be saved for a Batman Beyond movie. I dont see how any of the original villains from that series could be used without people rolling their eyes, and i think a futuristic villain should be used who can link Bruce to the story. Something where we could potentially get a Bruce/Victor scene AND get to witness Terry's younger self go up against a wiser villain. With all the sci-fi elements. A winter Gotham with flying cars: Bladerunner style.

If Marvel can get away with an attitudinal talking forest critter (in outer space), DC should be able to present a horrifying, fearless man-animal hybrid.
I agree with this and i think Man-Bat should be featured in a future Batman movie. Same with Killer Croc. But i dont think now is the time, nor do i feel like those rogues deserve a main villain or even secondary villain slot. They're not good characters, as far as what i've been exposed to. They have a "been there, done that" feel when it comes to who they are as characters. Only a visual treat in a more 'horror' setting.
 
The choice of villain really depends on what villains we encounter in the upcoming BvS film, and also Justice League.

It makes sense that a movie with a very physical villain should be followed by a movie with a more cerebral villain; they did it with the Joker in TDK followed by Bane in TDKR. The Joker posed no real threat to Batman physically, but was pulling all the strings and slowly destroying Batman's world. Bane on the other hand, whilst still intelligent, was someone who's physical attributes and skills mirrored and even bettered Batman's.

We know we're getting Lex in BvS, so I'd imagine Justice League will require a very strong physical antagonist - bearing in mind the entire League will be up against him. Someone on the level of Darkseid or Doomsday. If a Batman film is to follow that I'd imagine he'll be facing off against a highly intelligent master manipulator and strategist, and as such someone like the Riddler would fit the bill.
 
The villain will be between whatever villain they choose for Justice League #1 and then Darkseid for Justice League #2. So you're right. Riddler seems to be the right choice.
 
What if Hugo Strange is the mastermind behind all Batmans fantastical enemies? Then he unleashes his trio of terror on Gotham, consisting of: Man-Bat, Killer Croc and Clayface. Or he just breaks them out of Arkham Asylum. (Or someplace else)Yes yes, i know, the chances of that happening is about the same as Clint Eastwood as Two-Face. :o
 
I think we should look at the Arkham games. They are grounded but keep all the fantastical and supernatural of Batman without it being weird or in your face.

Look at Arkham Asylum. First time you meet Croc he's coming out of an elevator and threatening Batman. It was done so natural and didn't feel out of place.

The best villain to use IMO is Croc. Have Croc be a bodyguard to Riddler or maybe Mr Freeze. Croc is just muscle. Riddler and Freeze offer to cure him if Croc helps them. Maybe with Riddler, Riddler will backstab Croc and fail with his promise you cure him.

With Man-Bat, he's basically Lizard from TASM. Clayface sounds cool but he would look like a giant pile of **** really. Croc would be perfectly natural. He's condition is a rare disease.

Have Riddler as the main villain and Croc along with some guys deliver out Riddler's plans. Maybe Batman's already faced Croc and is wondering what's up with Croc.

I see no reason how Croc would be hard to do in a role like that.
 
I think we should look at the Arkham games. They are grounded but keep all the fantastical and supernatural of Batman without it being weird or in your face.

Look at Arkham Asylum. First time you meet Croc he's coming out of an elevator and threatening Batman. It was done so natural and didn't feel out of place.

The best villain to use IMO is Croc. Have Croc be a bodyguard to Riddler or maybe Mr Freeze. Croc is just muscle. Riddler and Freeze offer to cure him if Croc helps them. Maybe with Riddler, Riddler will backstab Croc and fail with his promise you cure him.

With Man-Bat, he's basically Lizard from TASM. Clayface sounds cool but he would look like a giant pile of **** really. Croc would be perfectly natural. He's condition is a rare disease.

Have Riddler as the main villain and Croc along with some guys deliver out Riddler's plans. Maybe Batman's already faced Croc and is wondering what's up with Croc.

I see no reason how Croc would be hard to do in a role like that.

We posted the same time in different threads lol, yeah i could see something like that. Maybe Hugo Strange would fit better to offer Killer Croc a cure, since he's a scientist?
 
What if Hugo Strange is the mastermind behind all Batmans fantastical enemies? Then he unleashes his trio of terror on Gotham, consisting of: Man-Bat, Killer Croc and Clayface. Or he just breaks them out of Arkham Asylum. (Or someplace else)Yes yes, i know, the chances of that happening is about the same as Clint Eastwood as Two-Face. :o
Sounds great but i dont see this happening for a while. Affleck or Snyder have one solo film to explore Gotham, with Ben in the role (i say that since you never know if prequels will happen)..so they'll want to make it count. Hence the Joker suggestions, or even Riddler.

But that's the best way to use those villains you listed.

I think we should look at the Arkham games. They are grounded but keep all the fantastical and supernatural of Batman without it being weird or in your face.

Look at Arkham Asylum. First time you meet Croc he's coming out of an elevator and threatening Batman. It was done so natural and didn't feel out of place.

The best villain to use IMO is Croc. Have Croc be a bodyguard to Riddler or maybe Mr Freeze. Croc is just muscle. Riddler and Freeze offer to cure him if Croc helps them. Maybe with Riddler, Riddler will backstab Croc and fail with his promise you cure him.

With Man-Bat, he's basically Lizard from TASM. Clayface sounds cool but he would look like a giant pile of **** really. Croc would be perfectly natural. He's condition is a rare disease.

Have Riddler as the main villain and Croc along with some guys deliver out Riddler's plans. Maybe Batman's already faced Croc and is wondering what's up with Croc.

I see no reason how Croc would be hard to do in a role like that.
:lmao:

I dont think Croc should be a monster who needs to be cured. Im down with them going fantastical with Freeze but i think Croc was at his best and most believable when Azarello made him a person. I wouldn't go the cannibal route either. Just make him muscle for the mob or Riddler. A huge bald black dude who is a thug/bodyguard. He has a bit of a skin condition, but nothing that needs curing. He's a killer for hire, and his nickname is Killer Croc because of his appearance. Scaley looking skin, somewhat on the neck and arms. But nothing exaggerated. But he's a very dangerous man.

I think a small role like that would be fine, even if they do Arkham Asylum, he can be trapped in there but he's no half-crocodile/half-man. Croc is a nickname only.

I say forget Clayface and Man-Bat, as well as Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, Hush.
 
Sounds great but i dont see this happening for a while. Affleck or Snyder have one solo film to explore Gotham, with Ben in the role (i say that since you never know if prequels will happen)..so they'll want to make it count. Hence the Joker suggestions, or even Riddler.

But that's the best way to use those villains you listed.

:lmao:

I dont think Croc should be a monster who needs to be cured. Im down with them going fantastical with Freeze but i think Croc was at his best and most believable when Azarello made him a person. I wouldn't go the cannibal route either. Just make him muscle for the mob or Riddler. A huge bald black dude who is a thug/bodyguard. He has a bit of a skin condition, but nothing that needs curing. He's a killer for hire, and his nickname is Killer Croc because of his appearance. Scaley looking skin, somewhat on the neck and arms. But nothing exaggerated. But he's a very dangerous man.

I think a small role like that would be fine, even if they do Arkham Asylum, he can be trapped in there but he's no half-crocodile/half-man. Croc is a nickname only.

I wouldn't mind Azarello's take but I don't know, I still love the Croc where he's a croc. Not a huge one like Arkham Asylum but Arkham Origins and Batman Earth One Vol 2 are doable. Maybe Batman says to Nightwing who doesn't know Croc that Croc had a cure and he worked for Hugo Strange who gave him a cure but it made him worse. Kind of like Beast in X-Men First Class.

I say forget Clayface and Man-Bat, as well as Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, Hush.

Say what?
 
Clayface sounds cool but he would look like a giant pile of **** really.

o5w1f6.jpg


If thats your idea of what **** looks like i dont know what to say.

Imagine that thing coming around the corner during a tense scene, theres your horror...
 
Horror, yes, but it still looks like a pile of **** is coming at you :hehe:

I wouldn't mind Azarello's take but I don't know, I still love the Croc where he's a croc. Not a huge one like Arkham Asylum but Arkham Origins and Batman Earth One Vol 2 are doable. Maybe Batman says to Nightwing who doesn't know Croc that Croc had a cure and he worked for Hugo Strange who gave him a cure but it made him worse. Kind of like Beast in X-Men First Class.



Say what?
Yeaaaaah im not the biggest fan of Hush. He's alright. But incredibly overrated.
 
What the heck is in your diet if **** looks like that?
 
Clay-face as a morphing faced, master of disguise situation would be interesting, so identity becomes the theme.
 
To the argument a couple pages back about which superhero is more realistic, Batman or Superman, I think this is a good opinion about who is more relatable from Grant Morrison.
In the end, I saw Superman not as a superhero or even a science fiction character, but as a story of Everyman. We’re all Superman in our own adventures. We have our own Fortresses of Solitude we retreat to, with our own special collections of valued stuff, our own super–pets, our own “Bottle Cities” that we feel guilty for neglecting. We have our own peers and rivals and bizarre emotional or moral tangles to deal with.
I felt I’d really grasped the concept when I saw him as Everyman, or rather as the dreamself of Everyman. That “S” is the radiant emblem of divinity we reveal when we rip off our stuffy shirts, our social masks, our neuroses, our constructed selves, and become who we truly are. Batman is obviously much cooler, but that’s because he’s a very energetic and adolescent fantasy character: a handsome billionaire playboy in black leather with a butler at this beck and call, better cars and gadgetry than James Bond, a horde of fetish femme fatales baying around his heels and no boss. That guy’s Superman day and night.
Superman grew up baling hay on a farm. He goes to work, for a boss, in an office. He pines after a hard–working gal. Only when he tears off his shirt does that heroic, ideal inner self come to life. That’s actually a much more adult fantasy than the one Batman’s peddling but it also makes Superman a little harder to sell. He’s much more of a working class superhero.
American writers often say they find it difficult to write Superman. They say he’s too powerful; you can’t give him problems. But Superman is a metaphor. For me, Superman has the same problems we do, but on a Paul Bunyan scale. If Superman walks the dog, he walks it around the asteroid belt because it can fly in space. When Superman’s relatives visit, they come from the 31st century and bring some hellish monster conqueror from the future. But it’s still a story about your relatives visiting.
 
No. The beauty of it is the fact that this is a character that can be portrayed in a more grounded fashion. That´s what sets him apart from the rest.
 
Morrison's opinion nails what I loved about Man of Steel
 
No. The beauty of it is the fact that this is a character that can be portrayed in a more grounded fashion. That´s what sets him apart from the rest.
I agree.

"Should" it be one way? No. I hate that word, should. Batman works in many genres, and people are free to do what they want with him. But Batman works best when he's in a city that doesn't look like it belongs in some galaxy that Peter Quill can have access to. Or some world where a monster as tall as a building can crawl out of a sewer. Can they bring this stuff into Batman's world? Yes, because there's horror imagery that can easily go along with Batman, to a point where you can draw similarities to Dracula or someone of that nature. That makes us think of the horror genre. A creepy clown? It works. Then the gargoyles, the monsters, the gothic look comes to the imagination and there ya go. Just like having a brighter, little kid sidekick inspires people to put Batman in a movie that's full of humor. Or placing him next to Superman opens the sci-fi door.

But what makes Batman thrive among the rest? I think it's the fact that he's human, battles darkness with ideas that could lead to a lighter direction, whether it does or not, it's the effort. But he's human, and he comes off just as fantastical as the rest even though those on the inside know that he's not. So besides a gimmick, or just changing the genre because it's boring to do the same thing over and over (a more valid reason)....why not just place the Batman in a world where HE and he alone will stick out as the fantastical being? And once you peel back the mask, you see that he's just a guy, like every other person living on the planet. That to me is the most interesting way to approach it. But it's not the only way it should be done.

That's my stance on it now. I've eased back a bit on the fantasy hate. Or at least the hate for some of those types of characters existing where Batman exists.
 
Right. And i don´t even buy into the idea of Batman fighting super powered enemies. I mean, the idea of a human fighting human criminals is already too far-fetched, but i can swallow it. But super powered enemies? I mean, c´mon...

in a good number of comics i´ve read, especially the more recent ones, Batman is basically a superhuman. He is not human at all. And if he can always come with a gadget to destroy the biggest of the threats, then what´s the difference between that and actually having powers? The result is the same.

Batman is a human, so he should fight humans. Superman is not human, so it makes sense for him to fight aliens and mutants.

It´s not that we can´t have good stories where Batman fights monsters. Yeah, we can. But Batman is a character that can be grounded in the world as we know it, and that´s what makes him so different in the CB universe, where almost everybody is super-something.

You put Batman amongst super powered beings, and you´re playing the character against his strenghts. You´re not exploring what´s most interesting about him. You´re basically just saying "Ok, do the same as the rest, but use gadgets". "Don´t fly, but fly anyway by using a grappling hook that almost seems spider-man´s web" C´mon...

I think it´s so interesting seeing this fantastic man interacting with real people, real cops, real criminals. It´s so cool to see him having so many weaknesses. It´s so cool to see him doing detective work in a city that, in many ways, is similar to several cities we have in the real world. Why do we need to see him fight someone made of clay?

Oh, i get it, beating up criminals, running from the police and solving difficult crimes is too easy for a human being. Give him an enemy who can turn into anything. Or give him superman, and let´s pretend he could actually beat him. Grounded stuff is too serious. Kids need more fun. Give them more explosion, neons and monsters.
 
I'm ready to embrace all the fantastical elements

Bruce Wayne is at the peak of human conditioning in all facets, I'm ready to see that guy on screen.
 
I'm ready to embrace all the fantastical elements

Bruce Wayne is at the peak of human conditioning in all facets, I'm ready to see that guy on screen.

Ditto. Some might think I don't want a fantastical Batman given my opinion of the way they have handled Bats' interaction with other superheroes these last 30 plus years. But I too want a Batman on screen that can live side by side with the more out there elements from the mythos on the big screen. I want a League of Assassins led by a crazed immortal. I want a shape shifting killer or a half bat/half human hybrid. These things could all work fine in stories where they are supposed to be taken seriously, it's all in the execution. And on that note, no, I don't think the games are actually the template to follow since the visuals and tone of the games is, despite what fans think, very over the top. You can do Harely Quinn live action... But not like she was in the games. You can do Bane (a comic accurate Bane) live action... but not the way he was presented in the games. If Batman lives in a world of space cops and scarlet speedsters then he can face insane botanists or super soldier master killers for hire.
 
I'm ready to embrace all the fantastical elements

Bruce Wayne is at the peak of human conditioning in all facets, I'm ready to see that guy on screen.

The peak of human conditioning isn´t enough to fight super powered enemies without dying instantly.

Batman can only be cleverly explored fighting humans and having an hard time doing it.

Oh, and my ideal Batman isn´t at the peak of human conditioning, because that´s simply not possible for someone like him.

First off all, in a lot of stories, he is too old. Anyone above 30 can´t be at the peak of anything. Your body is already falling apart.

He doesn´t have an healthy lifestyle. This is pretty obvious for anyone who reads comics. He doesn´t sleep enough, he is constantly getting injured and doesn´t give time to his body to heal.

He gets punched in the head all the time. If he is a human, he gets brain damage. And if he gets brain damage, he can´t really continue to be super smart.

He spends a good part of his time fighting crime, so he doesn´t have time to train. Anyone who knows anything about sports and human body knows that, to be at your best, you need to train very hard, several hours a day, everyday. For any man to even come close to do what Batman does, he would have to train like an olympian on a daily basis. And if you´re a human, you can´t do that. Fact.

So, Batman fighting humans the way he does is already unrealistic enough, but people still feel he should fight superhumans. Why not just give Batman super powers? Because that´s what he has, if he can actually do that.

To write a clever story about Batman you need to take into account all the weaknesses a real human would show under the circumstances he lives in. You need to make him fragile, beatable, conflicted. He needs to live in his world, where he is fighting enemies who have real weaknesses like him. That´s the real appeal of Batman: His weaknesses. If you take that away from him and make him capable of achieving the same as Superman...then well...he is Superman, right? He is basically just another god with a slightly different modus operandi.

There are so many amazing stories you can tell about Batman without going "fantastical". Too bad studios and people aren´t interested in it. You always dumb things down when you add too many fantastical elements.

Oh, and remember: If we consider, movies, comics, tv shows and videogames, we´ve seen Batman portrayed way more times in a fantastical universe than in a grounded universe. That´s why i think it would be cool to explore something different.
 

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