Should We Water Board Terror Suspects To Save Lives?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Memphis Slim, Nov 1, 2007.

?

SHOULD WE TORTURE TO SAVE LIVES?

  1. YES.

  2. NO.

  3. It depends on the situation

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    Yeah, why don't we just hijack passenger planes and fly them into their cities. That would "match their ferocity," real good, wouldn't it?

    What makes us better is that we're not like them. We actually try to observe the rules of engagement, which is why hearing about things like torture should shock and offend us.
     
  2. Memphis Slim

    Memphis Slim Registered

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    The Bible does not teach against self-defense. If you actually studied it instead of quoting a few verses here or there for your argument, you'd know that. God even told the the Hebrews to go to war against some enemy nations to protect themselves.
     
  3. Addendum

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    So they couldn't just kill and cover up the murder of 4 unarmed civilians.

    Is that supposed to change my mind or what
     
  4. SuperMonkey

    SuperMonkey Registered

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    You talking 'bout Haditha? Look at the testimonies of people who were there.
     
  5. Addendum

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    No, I'm talking about the stuff from the Glenn Beck show that celldog posted.
     
  6. SuperMonkey

    SuperMonkey Registered

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    Huh. That's funny that unarmed civilians were able to fire on them. :)
     
  7. Superhobo

    Superhobo Registered

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    What a load of tripe. It doesn't help matters none that - not only does this guy (the NAVY guy) sound like an idiot - the guy interviewing him is Glenn Beck, a guy I don't hold in anywhere near high regard.

    Water boarding? Torture? C'mon. Are you people actually condoning this stuff? What's bloody well wrong with you people? Jesus.
     
  8. Addendum

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    You didn't read the post. Some goat-herders came upon the position of the SEALs. Due to the rules of engagement, the SEALs could not just shoot the civilians, so they had to let them go. Then about half an hour later, the Taliban attacked their position.
     
  9. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    Things like that have happened in any war. I've read stories like that about Vietnam. Just because we have rules doesn't mean the enemy always will. But to not have any kind of rules of engagement, I think we'd have a lot more Blackwaters than an end to terrorism.
     
  10. Superhobo

    Superhobo Registered

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    - - - and rape their women, kill their children...etc. Savage, tribal stuff. Sorry, dude. It WASN'T to protect themselves. Heh. But, whatever thrills ya.
     
  11. bullets

    bullets bang bang

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    wed have alot of renegade soldiers out there acting like monsters. its a pony show to make us look like the good guys , thats the objective.
     
  12. SuperMonkey

    SuperMonkey Registered

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    Yeah, I did. They fired on the Taliban and the Taliban returned fire.
     
  13. bullets

    bullets bang bang

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    im sure civilians will always be more than willing to give up your position , they are out there in a community with no real protection ,its best for them to cooperate with the thugs to keep themself afloat..while they hope that someday we get the job done. never put too much faith in the civilians.
     
  14. PemLam

    PemLam Let the butthurt flow!

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    You said they were unarmed, when in fact they were. The Taliban initially shot was carrying an AK and two RPG's. You are a legal combatant according to the ROE, Geneva Convention and Law of Armed Conflict. Are you honestly enough of an idiot to suggest these four SEALS sit back and do nothing in the hopes the friendly Taliban will leave them alone?

    There isn't a person on this damn board that has any idea if water boarding or other torture techniques are effective or not because none of us have ever experienced it or seen it. For the most part we hear about the failures of the gov't or the military to prevent something but we/you have NO idea how many incidents have been prevented because good intel was obtained.

    The view from that extremely high horse you're sitting on must be spectacular...be careful or you'll get a nosebleed. :whatever:
     
  15. Matt

    Matt IKYN Guy Groupie

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    ...what? I didn't say it did. I'm not talking about scripture. I am asking you if you would kill for God. And if so would you let the size or brutality of an army stop you? Did you even read my post?
     
  16. Mr Sparkle

    Mr Sparkle Registered

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    I want you to name an example of a terrorist attack in the US or and attack on US interests in the world in which " millions" died.

    I DARE YOU!

    you know what that is? a " flat out lie".
    and also, since " there are many instances" in which it " saved lived" ( lives?) I'd like for you to name 10 instances.
    thank you.
     
  17. Mr Sparkle

    Mr Sparkle Registered

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    :o

    only a " true american" endorses torture.
    but hey, they are not " human" like us, right mein fuhrer?
     
  18. Figs

    Figs Registered

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    Sad thing is, now days with all the sympathetic fake liberals out there "fair trial" isn't really fair when it comes to actual justice. I was surprised Saddam got hung, that lawyer was trying to get people to sympathise with someone who had all facts against him prooving all his crimes. Lawyer was still trying to get him off.
     
  19. Figs

    Figs Registered

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    Which none of them follow at all.
     
  20. Memphis Slim

    Memphis Slim Registered

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    uHH....WHAT NUMBER IS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU THEN??? :dry:
     
  21. Wilhelm-Scream

    Wilhelm-Scream Registered

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    I just need to say, if it weren't so frightening it'd be hilarious....I see this s*** all the time.



    [*]I say the Christian God is a sadistic barbarian, warlike and bloodthirsty.


    [*]That was only in the Old Testament. That was a different time. Jesus came to fulfill the Law. We don't KILL disobedient children, Homos and Witches anymore...'cause Jesus taught us to love our enemies, and not to resist an evil man.


    [*]Jesus was a pacifist and said "He who lives by the sword will die by it and if a man STRIKES you, turn your cheek and let him strike the other." He would Never. Never. NEVER go to WAR. N.E.V.E.R., no matter what.


    [*]Bullhonkey, God always went to war and commanded his people to slaughter neighbors in self defense!

    *****All Examples From THE OLD TESTAMENT, BEFORE JESUS CAME*****​






    Slim, you can't have it both ways. You're....there's no other way to say it. You are stupid, and evil. You're a human joke. The world will be such a better place when you're gone.
     
  22. Figs

    Figs Registered

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    That's ****ed up!:dry:
     
  23. Mr Sparkle

    Mr Sparkle Registered

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    LOL again

    I ( "I" meaning me, mr sparkle) want you ( "you" meaning Celldog) to name an example of a terrorist attack in the US or and attack on US interests in the world in which " millions" died.(get it?, now I'd like you to answer)

    :cwink:
     
  24. Memphis Slim

    Memphis Slim Registered

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    oooooooooh....look at all the big font and pretty colors!! :yay:

    Being the Bible Scholar that you are, you'd know that Jesus is the same God of the Old Testament. You'd also know that His sacrifice only cancelled the ceremonial laws and civil laws.


    Though we maintain that perfect peace will come on the earth only through God's direct intervention, scripture is very clear about our responsibility to introduce peace to this world. God is the God of peace (Rom 15:23; 1 Th 5:23; Heb 13:20), we have peace with God through Jesus (Acts 10:36; Rom 5:1) and he has called us to live in peace (1 Co 7:15; 2 Co 13:11). In his discussion about not paying back evil for evil and the taking of vengeance, Paul says, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men" (Rom 12:18; also Heb 12:14). If there is something we can do to avoid arguments or violence with others, then we are to do so.
    This does not mean, however, that we are to consistently allow evil people to do whatever they want, simply to "keep the peace." For example, Proverbs 25:26 describes a righteous man who gives way to the wicked as a polluted well. If we are aware of someone's evil intentions that will bring harm to others, we certainly would not seek peace by giving in to their demands. For example, you do not turn your child over to a child molester just to "keep peace."
    Similarly, some Christians feel that the western world should not disarm because this would allow totalitarian countries to take over and destroy the lives of millions. This is an issue of self defense, rather than an issue of faith alone. Because some individuals, groups or nations are clearly bent on dominating and abusing others, maintaining the peace at times may be impossible without a strong defense.

    So "peace" cannot always be the Christian's response, due to the evil intent of others. For example, the term "tough love" has become a popular description of our responses to another's sin. In scripture, we see that Paul did not allow the immoral brother to continue influencing the Corinthians, though they may have felt it would keep the peace to allow him to remain. Instead, Paul said to expel him (1 Cor. 5:13). To another church, Paul instructed that if a person refuses to work, he should not receive the community's support: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat" (2 Th 3:10). And if someone did not obey Paul's instructions, the church was not to associate with him to make him feel ashamed (2 Th. 3:14). The apostle John wrote that we are to refuse to welcome a brother who is teaching a different Christ (2 John 9-10). These are corrective actions intended to eventually restore the peace between spiritual brothers, but the short term effect to is disturb the peace. Jesus himself, who brought us peace with God, stated "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Mt 10:34). He then shows that the gospel will sever some relationships and create enemies within a person's own household. Yes, God is the God of peace and we are to live at peace to the extent possible, but as long as we live in a sin-dominated world that is hostile to our God and his kingdom, we will not always have peace. It is clear from these scriptures that our actions must occasionally and briefly disturb the peace so that long-term peace can be restored.
    The New Testament is clearly a handbook for the individual, not a dissertation on the operation of government. As Americans, we recognize that a primary duty of the federal government is to provide for the defense of the populace. Likewise, God protects us so we don't have to protect ourselves; and he does a much better job of it. It appears this is a case of God requiring individuals to have very different responses than governments or even groups.
    As with all systems of law, we see that a spiritual law may be superseded by another under certain conditions. In the natural realm, we understand that the law of aerodynamic lift can supersede the law of gravity under certain conditions, allowing an airplane to fly. I suggest we must see the law of peace superseded under certain conditions by other spiritual laws. Thus it occasionally is necessary for us act in self-sacrificing love, for example, even using non-peaceful means, to protect a principle or another person.

    I think many people mistakenly believe that peace overrides all other factors, that we must do anything necessary to maintain peace. But that is not so; Jesus and the apostles certainly didn't do that. The New Testament clearly states that love overrides all other factors, but it does not say that about peace.
    One of the biggest arguments against Christians defending themselves is that we are called to live in peace. It is clear from the scriptures and principles we have just examined that peace will not and cannot be the overriding issue in all situations. There are times when a Christian must knowingly and deliberately break the peace to achieve a higher good. This in no way condones anarchy or a hostile nature. But God's kingdom and his righteousness (his work and his character; Mt 6:33) must be our highest priority, and this sometimes requires us to respond non-peacefully to a sinful world. Peace is not always possible
     
  25. Memphis Slim

    Memphis Slim Registered

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    Millions could be at risk one day. You deny that? You don't think we should do everything possible to get that info?

    And I want YOU (Mr. Speckle) to understand that I could care less about what you want me to do.

    Especially since this a hypothetical.
     

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