Singers Vision Of Xmen 3?

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by boywonder13, Dec 9, 2005.

  1. Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    Okay. Let's look at the first film, shall we?

    Tell me: Was it Halle Berry then who forced Bryan and his writers to make the "Storm" character do the following?

    *Get strangled

    *Smashed against glass

    *Get kicked in the face

    *Send carreening into various displays

    *Get kicked in the stomach

    *Get thrown down an elevator shaft

    *Get gut-punched in the stomach

    *Get stabbed (although technically that was really a morph, but Storm was still used)

    *Say out-of-character lines i.e. "I can't control it like that", "I can't!" etc.

    *Give the character the worst punchline in comic moviedom history

    And that's just from the first film. Pray do tell, why wasn't Jean or Cyclops treated in a similar manner? Why should Storm get the lion's share of whoop-a$$?

    These events spelled out one character trait for Storm to moviegoers: WEAKNESS. She can't fight, defend herself, and the baddies go straight for her and kick her ass. She only gets a lightning bolt in after she's had some time to recuperate and get some prep time in the elevator shaft! :rolleyes: And if you read the reviews and the fans' displeasure that was the unifying theme among all--Storm was weak.

    Now, who's responsible for that characterization Guard? Who is to blame for not giving the character much of anything else to do accept get her a$$ stomped throughout the first film? Who directed this "first impression" of the cinematic version of a character who is known to be a commanding Warrior "Goddess"? Halle? :o

    True, to an extent Halle's responsible for her tone of voice with her lines, but even that can be directed--for example: the magically dissappearing African accent in X2--at Bryan's demand. :o . And of course, lacking the star power then that she has now, Halle didn't determine her own lines or screen time for those first two films. Bryan and the writers did.

    I don't care if Halle and Bryan didn't get along. I don't care if Fox did insist that Bryan add Storm for diversity. Do such factors give him the go-ahead to make her into some unmitigated disaster? Was he getting some sort of latent revenge by treating her like ****? :rolleyes: That's real mature. :rolleyes:

    And even if he simply didn't know much about Storm as a character, he should've done his homework and directed the character more accurately. Remember, Bryan got Wolverine, Magneto, Jean, Xavier and Scott right (more or less), so to screw Storm up says something--not about his talent--but about his motives and appreciation for the character.


    It's not like he's not capable.
     
  2. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    But Angela apparently didn't want it, and she may not have been the right look (judge from the Black Panther and Storm miniseries artwork, where Storm's look is based on Angela and comes off as rather stern and butch).

    Regardless of any of this, Halle IS in X3 and she looked damned fine in that trailer. It just showed what can be done. Now we have to hope the lines and characterisation match up - seeing her looking at that cloudy sky makes me think they will.

    I didn't want her to be commanding, that's the role for Cyclops. I just wanted her more defined and accurate than in the dialogue so far. If only they'd had her land on the snow in X1 when she and Storm stop Sabretooth; that would have told us straight away that she could fly.
     
  3. bosef982 Registered

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    Sigh...did you own any of the X-Men scripts? I own both X1 and X2, multiple drafts. In it, Storm is not written as weak and weasly. And in the case of X2, that writing came off screen. Things Storm did in X2:

    -- Defeated an two airplane Jets by whipping up multiple tornadoes.

    Not enough, still weak...?

    -- Defeated the spillway guards -- as seen by the lightening. Budgetary efforts made the actual fight scen there cut.

    Oh wait, she doesn't matter...her character's wasted...

    -- Enters Dark Cerebro and single-handedly saves all of humanity from telepathic extinction.

    I mean, come the f-k on people. It sounds to me like you guys want a STORM MOVIE. How much more do you want her to do?

    And yes, it does fall upon the actors to make more screentime for themselves. How come no one whines about Xavier having LESS screentime than Storm...? Why? Because when Patrick Stewart was on screen, he made the persona, he made the presence, and it was all we needed. We didn't need multiple scenes to establish his character -- he alluded him. Halle Berry couldn't do it -- her acting was weak, and her conflicts on the set made it worse (which is just unprofessional).

    Her acting's weak in the X-films. She's her own worst enemy. Not Singer. Now, yes, Singer could have pushed her. But as The Guard said, "She's the f-ing Halle Berry." And does anyone want to venture what their f-ing battles were about on set? Probably Singer telling her to step it up!

    Are you all really this blind? Storm had a great deal to do in X2, yet you're still not satisfied. She basically functioned as the leader of the X-Men in that film, piloting the plane, giving directions on the spillway mechanism, partitioning the team up inside Stryker's base, and figuring out the soultion to stop Dark Cerebro, as well as stopping it herself -- and then assisting in Xavier in disrupting the White House electronics so they could slip in.

    What else did you want her to do?
     
  4. Pickle-El Registered

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    That is THE problem I have with this whole situation right now....A more commanding presence could have easily pulled off the same lines from X1 and X2. It's called 'stealing your scenes', Oscar or not, Halle doesn't have that ability and commanding presence to do it. I mean, I thought Cumming (yes, The Mask 2 Alan Cumming) did a better job at provoking emotion in the Jet dialogue than Berry. (The 'I pity them' scene) Her tone of voice, and delivery if pretty flat. I think that has a lot to do with he coming off as weak. To be honest, can someone give me a GOOD example of differntiation between 'normal' Storm and 'pissed off and ready to kick ass' Storm?


    In X1 I'll give you an example, 'Hold on to something'.....she says it like it's breakfast time.
     
  5. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Oh come on, wake up, it was the lines and the characterisation that were wrong :rolleyes:

    She acted the lines given to her. But they were the wrong lines, they were't consistent, they were random and nonsensical. They didn't define the character and the writer of X3 agreed with that. She was 'scared of humans' (too meek, why is this?), 'gave up on pity long ago' (why? what happened?) 'anger helped her survive' (how, when?), and her failure to defend herself at all from Toad was absurd. She could have put up a bit of a fight before he kicked her into the elevator. Even in X2, summoning tornadoes while flying the jet - it didn't seem right to be able to concentrate on flying manoeuvres and also on bringing down multiple tornado funnels, she should have handed over the jet controls and flown out into the sky.
     
  6. TheVileOne Registered

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    bosef seems to keep making the best points.

    And quite frankly, after CINO and Halle Berry herself saying she never wanted to another super hero or comic book movie OTHER THAN CATWOMAN 2...I see no reason for her deserving to get a larger starring role in X-men 3, or being in X-men 3 at all.

    Guard is also right, Halle Berry is not good at playing strong female character types. She does not exude the sort of Goddess-like power and strength that the Storm of the comics has.
     
  7. Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    Iceman had a character arc in X2--we met his parents, brothers and witnessed their discrimination. Rogue had a fully fleshed out origin in the first film, and she was at the center of the plot device. Pryo could use a bit more development.

    Beast and Gambit are cool. But I don't care for the World War II Danger Room scenes I'm hearing about...and that Sentinel design is hideous.

    In my opinion of course. :p
     
  8. bosef982 Registered

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    Does not recieve one single impact or hit in X2 and actually delivers them. (i.e. Nightcrawler and Stryker's men).

    Yes, but in movies the heroes have to be pulled. Did she not rise out of the elevator shaft and f-ing blow the room apart with wind and lightening. Uh-huh...I thought so.

    So are you going to do a blow by blow of how she was hit? Should we do it for Wolverine as well and then call him a weak ****? Seriously, you're groping here.

    This is one fight. You can't keep referencing it as if it was each a single instance. All these things happend win a twenty second time span.

    Again, same fight.

    After which she rises and blows the place apart and electrocutes Toad.

    Again, same fight. Sigh...

    Ah come on, please...:rolleyes:

    It's all in the delivery.

    Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

    X2: Revisited:

    -- Storm leads the group to go find Nightcrawler, bringing him down.

    -- Storm lands the X-Jet before Bobby's house, after delivering a speech about giving up on pity and anger helping her survive.

    -- Storm pilots the jet, evading trained Air Force pilots, all the while whipping up multiple tornadoes to effectively, yet harmlessly, allow them to escape.

    -- Storm studies and relays information concerning the dam system, explaining what they can and cannot do.

    -- It is Storm's lightening we see flashing over the guards when they break into the base. Electromagnetic interference (Storm) blacks out Stryker's troops.

    -- Storm partitions the team up in the base and then goes and rescues the kidnapped children.

    -- Storm figures out how to get into Dark Cerebro.

    --Storm stops Dark Cerebro.

    --Storm helps Xavier break into the White House.


    Again, what more did you want? Where was she weak in there? I need an answer, not an evasion. No one, NO ONE, has ever answered this question in re: to X2!
     
  9. cookiva Registered

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    You ask for an answer, but you are not answering LS's questions!!!!!
     
  10. bosef982 Registered

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    Oh, so now it's not that she didn't have stuff to do, it just wasn't done the way you wanted it -- or in a comic book, spectacle sort of way?

    Please, to me it was a testament that she was able to fly and make tornadoes. That shows skill and an amazing amount of concentration.

    So in your scenario, let's see...they would have put the plane in hover at that altitude :-)rolleyes: ) and Storm should go ahead and fly up into the thin atmosphere :-)rolleyes: ) and expose herself to machine-gun armed and missle locked pilots -- not to mention the plane's themselves -- and conjured up some tornadoes...as the X-Jet hovered there waiting for her to finish, hoping that being a sitting duck wouldn't make them more of a target, and waiting for Storm's tornadoes to not distract the planes, but instead KILL THEM -- cuz they wouldn't be moving. Unless, they'd leave Storm behind in your scenario, in that case -- how does she catch up all the way in Western Canada? God, then we'd have to hear about how she disappeared for a quarter of the movie while flying back...

    ...oh yeah, and we need to keep the audience believing and accepting all that as well.

    **shakes head**
     
  11. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Who is 'right' and 'best' is a matter of opinion. You can flap and flail like a fish on a hot griddle as much as you want. I don't think we'd ever get a Storm 'goddess' in the movies - but someone with some confidence, with a defined reason for being what she is and doing what she does - that's what fans wanted. The power displays have been, generally, fine. If Singer had shown Storm landing on the snow in her first scene in X1, then that would have established flight. And if he replaced the 'I can't control it like that' with something else, or just cut it altogether. 'Storm can you fly me up there' 'Yes, everyone hold on to something' and that would have served the purpose without any hint of lack of control or lack of confidence.
     
  12. bosef982 Registered

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    How did I not? Have you been reading my posts?
     
  13. cookiva Registered

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    Yes, I have. I have stayed out of this argument till this point to tell you both this. Neither of you have answered eachothers questions. Dont ask him for an answer if you wont answer his. LS has made as much of an argument as you have.
     
  14. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Shake all you want, but I found that scene odd. No one else has mentioned it, but I have said what i thought. And i still think it. You do not have the power to remove that viewpoint, much though you seem to think you can.

    You totally misrepresent what i meant. Who the frigging hell said anything about putting the plane in hover? She should have flown out and up into the clouds and then generated the tornadoes. No one has said anything about putting the plane in hover so DO NOT put words in my mouth and let your twisted bias take over.
     
  15. Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    No, you're just agreeing with him because of your obsessive CINO hatred...a bone you have yet to stop picking. It peppers your posts.

    Next. :p
     
  16. cookiva Registered

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    Ya, I agree with that.....
     
  17. bosef982 Registered

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    But do you see what you refute with? There's a point where this surpasses being a matter of opinion and becomes a matter of reason.

    You counter conceptual, character-oriented argumetns in support of Singer's handling of Storm overall, you conter these with "What about this line...." and "this punch..."

    I mean, come on. And to the whole, Storm getting beat up. Okay, let's refer to the Matrix movies. In Matrix One, Neo gets his ass handed to him repeatedly, until at the very end, he manages to fight back and barely win. However, those scenes are so stunning, so cool because we know the odds are stacked against him, and like him, we have all this pent up frusteration that we ant to unleash so that when Neo fights back, we're like "YES!" However, in Matrix Reloaded, the common critique was that Neo was no longer a dramatic underdog. He was powerful enough taht we had no doubt in our minds what was too happen next. He'd face agents. Done. He'd face 100 Smiths. Done without breaking a sweat. Then, faced the Merovingians guards. Done, with only a drop of blood. There was no suspense, it was just fight spectacle for the sake of fight spectacle. You didn't root for them.

    You guys want Storm to be like Neo in Matrix Reloaded, where her success in winning is a forgone conclusion. For me, her getting her ass handed to her by Toad made the scene where she rises from the elevator shaft all the more dramatic and stunning. In the end, she won. Just like in the first Matrix, weak as he may have been in COMPARISON to Smith, Neo won. You want Storm to be the most powerful person out there -- and she always has to win. Well, good drama doesn't work that way.
     
  18. HighVoltage Registered

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    Hahahaha. Yeah Yeah The War Has Started.:down
     
  19. bosef982 Registered

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    Me and theVileone have seen eye to eye on many issues. This is below you to make such a idiotic comment. You saying he has a bone to pick with CINO clouds his judgement is as bad as me saying you being a Storm fan clouds your -- you're arguing eveyrthing but the point, creating a straw man, and attacking crediblity, not the argument before you.
     
  20. cookiva Registered

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    hahaha!
     
  21. bosef982 Registered

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    I'm not denying him that, and my question was phrased in a general sense.
     
  22. Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    I think most people (judging from the reviews and fans) felt Storm was much improved in X2. Her "I have faith in you" themes were executed perfectly--there was great chemistry between Halle and Alan. Critics loved these things about that film. And you're right, she did have more to do SFX wise and of course as field leader. But if you note, I wasn't complaining about X2. :p

    See, in this case, unfortunately the first impression is a lasting impression. The first impression we got of Storm was that she is a weakling...it's taking additional sequels to shake that perception...and to be honest--in regards to the topic at hand--I don't believe Singer would've been the one to make it happen for Storm in X3 or X4.
     
  23. cookiva Registered

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    Im not a Halle lover, or Halle hater, so I can see both of your sides easily. But you have not proved anything at all. LS keeps saying that its one way, Bosef says another. You are not going to change anything. Halle has a strong role in X3, that is something everyone can agree on, correct? Just accept the fact.
     
  24. cookiva Registered

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    That is true....
     
  25. TheVileOne Registered

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    He's not nitpicking everything Storm does in the movies like you seem to be doing.

    And Halle Berry herself is the one that went on record and said Catwoman 2 was the only sequel she wanted to do.
     

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