BvS Skepticism Regarding the Film - Part 9

[jokesonm3]

You know when critics review Batman v Superman after the review embargo ends, two things need to happen in order to ensure that it gets good reviews:

1) Given that it's a sequel (albeit not a direct sequel) critics want to see whether or not BvS has addressed the issues they had with Man of Steel.

2) all three acts of the film must be entertaining as it is satisfying without causing new issues to occur from controversial moments (like snapping Zod's neck) to having too many characters and causing an unbalance in the film.

If BvS does that then i'm sure that it will get both good reviews and a good RT score.

For me i have no doubt that critics are going to love the first two acts of the film I.E. the 'Batman v Superman' portion of the film, what i'm worried about is how the critics react to the 3rd and final part of the film I.E. the 'Dawn of Justice' portion, given that the quality of an ending can make or break a film.

It could honestly go either two ways, either the good way where we get a satisfying conclusion of Lex using Doomsday as his Plan B due to Batman and Superman resolving their feud which forces the trinity to unite and defeat the bad guy and save the day, or it could go a completely different way like the bad way where we have a film where once Doomsday releases, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, The Flash and Cyborg all work together and defeat Doomsday until Darkseid comes along and kidnaps Superman leading into the Justice League film which critics are going to hate if that happens on the grounds of overstuffing the film.

The point is what Snyder and Terrio do with the 3rd act determines the critical fate of BvS, would it be a simple yet epic trinity vs doomsday fight or an overstuffed JLA vs doomsday fight with unnecessary introductions.

Like i said earlier, the 3rd act of a film can make or break it with the critics and audiences, in fact if you read a majority of the negative reviews for MoS on rotten tomatoes you can see that a majority of negative critics actually enjoyed the first two acts of MoS (albeit some minor complaints) but got completely turned off during the 3rd act I.E. the battle of metropolis (which i personally disagree with).

In conclusion the 3rd act of Batman v Superman can determine whether or not this film gets an overwhelmingly positive review or becomes a divisive film, thats my take on the potential standing of BvS with the critics, thoughts?

 

[Tobias]

Curious how that ensure a greater script than the one we are going to get. In either scenario both the writer would be Terrio.
The main difference is that snyder reads comic books and has experience making big technical movies for studios and Affleck is admittedly learning on the job in both scenarios.

For me it would be like asking right now that Affleck has a better Infinity War in him than The Russo's. Ignoring the reception of TWS, it's a fair statement by internet logic to assert Affleck is 'better' than them(see track record), and would 'turn out a better script'. When I'd argue he's less familiar with the script and less experienced putting these big movies together(not at all easy).

I'm super down for Affleck post the BvS experience to take on batman. I think he has a better batman movie in him than nolan. Rather one I would like more. But this jla thing is bit much all things considered.

If they were to bring in Affleck it would have to be IMO after he directs the Batman solo. So JL2. Maybe push that back to 2020 if they are bringing in a new director.

I think Affleck would give us a lighter, brighter film. If he were brought in it'd maybe be an admission in effect from WB that it went too dark with MOS, BsS and JL1.

 

[DKDetective]

I never said BvS would bomb I said IF it does.

I think you need to do a Google search there were rumours abou it involving Brainiac and Supergirl. Also conveniently forget the George Miller rumours? As usual you ignore stuff to make your point.

http://heroichollywood.com/home-1/2...n-of-steel-sequel-plot-villain-details-emerge

Tobias as always is way off-base, but El Maybe isn't the best source to rebut his allegations.

 

[Tra-El]

Ah, so Tobias is back to spinning his "WB is phasing out Cavill and Superman" crap again? It was only a matter of time.

About a month before release. Perfect timing indeed. You know when it's hot and humid and you look down the street to see a hazy pile of water laying on the road in the distance that's not really there?

That's Tobias's backbone as a poster. He takes what's really not there and spins it into convincing himself that the illusion he's referring to is real. The sources he speaks of are about as hazy as can be but in his mind, he sees it.

We're the other guy standing next to him going "Dude, I don't see a thing. It's just your eyes playing tricks."

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I'm gonna be that guy and say that BvS gets an 86%-88% RT score.

 

[Tra-El]

He hinted it here - that he hopes for another film after the DCEU is rolled out.

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/ne...r-solo-superman-movies-in-the-future#/slide/1

Or in USA Today a few weeks ago:

There’s a whole world of fantasy in comic books, and if you just focus on one small portion of it, you’re never going to get the full magic of it,” Cavill says. “Now that we’re introducing all these other characters and really building the universe to a far larger place than just a simple alien’s life on Earth, it really makes it extraordinarily interesting.”

Wait, so you really see that as hinting towards something? All Cavill is saying is this isn't a closed Universe by concept like the Nolanverse was. He's saying that this is going to be extraordinarily interesting by the simple fact these other characters exist and can exist in any film going forward. Nothing there suggests anything about there not being room for another solo film in phase one.

If anything, I see Henry Cavill crazy excited about the Superman character and the direction they are going in. He steps up to the plate over and over again telling us how deep and emotional we can ride this Superman out in future films. Everything Cavill has said or explained so far has happened, so his enthusiasm for Superman gets me excited as a fan.

 

[DieSmiling]

You know when critics review Batman v Superman after the review embargo ends, two things need to happen in order to ensure that it gets good reviews:

1) Given that it's a sequel (albeit not a direct sequel) critics want to see whether or not BvS has addressed the issues they had with Man of Steel.

2) all three acts of the film must be entertaining as it is satisfying without causing new issues to occur from controversial moments (like snapping Zod's neck) to having too many characters and causing an unbalance in the film.

I gotta say I don't agree with either of these points.

I don't think most film critics are going to be paying close enough attention (for the most part) to compare it to Man of Steel. I doubt they care enough about superhero films to be thinking about it like that... And Superman killing someone if far more "controversial" to fans than to critics. I'm bet most critics didn't think twice about that.

Having two many characters and a bloated plot? That's a concern.

 

[Rowsdower!]

About a month before release. Perfect timing indeed. You know when it's hot and humid and you look down the street to see a hazy pile of water laying on the road in the distance that's not really there?

That's Tobias's backbone as a poster. He takes what's really not there and spins it into convincing himself that the illusion he's referring to is real. The sources he speaks of are about as hazy as can be but in his mind, he sees it.

We're the other guy standing next to him going "Dude, I don't see a thing. It's just your eyes playing tricks."

Lol, perfect metaphor.

 

[BH/HHH]

Tobias as always is way off-base, but El Maybe isn't the best source to rebut his allegations.

Actually what I said was rumours, it doesn't matter where the rumours originated just that there were rumours.

 

[BH/HHH]

Wait, so you really see that as hinting towards something? All Cavill is saying is this isn't a closed Universe by concept like the Nolanverse was. He's saying that this is going to be extraordinarily interesting by the simple fact these other characters exist and can exist in any film going forward. Nothing there suggests anything about there not being room for another solo film in phase one.

If anything, I see Henry Cavill crazy excited about the Superman character and the direction they are going in. He steps up to the plate over and over again telling us how deep and emotional we can ride this Superman out in future films. Everything Cavill has said or explained so far has happened, so his enthusiasm for Superman gets me excited as a fan.

 

[Tra-El]

I think Affleck would give us a lighter, brighter film. If he were brought in it'd maybe be an admission in effect from WB that it went too dark with MOS, BsS and JL1.

Where do you even come up with the assumption that Affleck would give us a lighter and brighter film when he has never even touched a superhero property before?

He never made movies of this magnitude so his influence on these properties would be taught by Snyder since he'd be on those sets. Affleck's rejuvenated career consists of performances in Argo, The Town and Gone Girl; not necessarily "light and bright" films.

I get the assumption that Snyder's aim to work towards a worldly superhero universe that touch's upon current events/politics drew him in. The addition of Terrio is a plus in this department.

With all that said, we don't know if BvS is "too dark" and especially not JL1 since production on the movie hasn't even started yet. So much more is to happen before we start talking pushing this and that back with new directors. Jeez, lets get through March first.

 

[Tobias]

Having two many characters and a bloated plot? That's a concern.

Yes. it started out as bvS and has changed into perhaps a pre-JL film. And that may have evolved over time. Pushing the film back a year as happened.

I think the whole rush to get a JL1 may have had a negative impact on what BvS became. of indeed it ends up with too many character and a bloated plot.

I still am waiting for a true B & Supes film. With Joker and Lex.

 

[Tra-El]

Yes. it started out as bvS and has changed into perhaps a pre-JL film. And that may have evolved over time. Pushing the film back a year as happened.

I think the whole rush to get a JL1 may have had a negative impact on what BvS became. of indeed it ends up with too many character and a bloated plot.

I still am waiting for a true B & Supes film. With Joker and Lex.

It started out as Man of Steel 2 that turned into Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice. Many thought if MoS was a success, that they would jump right into Justice League and introduce the league from there, but they decided to take most of Man of Steel 2's plot and integrate it with Batman's introduction.

Snyder just said that even though this is setting up JL1, this movie is SQUARELY about Batman and Superman and focus's on what makes them click as characters and adversaries to one another. They spend a lot of time on that. The movie is still centrally focused on Batman and Superman. The Dawn of Justice part will send us off into JL. Come on, lets not twist it that BvS all of a sudden became a Justice League movie. That's twisting and turning at its finest.

And there's nothing wrong with pushing the film back. It shows they care to get it right and I'm glad they did it. Now lets hope it was worth it.

 

[Tobias]

Where do you even come up with the assumption that Affleck would give us a lighter and brighter film when he has never even touched a superhero property before?

He never made movies of this magnitude so his influence on these properties would be taught by Snyder since he'd be on those sets. Affleck's rejuvenated career consists of performances in Argo, The Town and Gone Girl; not necessarily "light and bright" films.

I get the assumption that Snyder's aim to work towards a worldly superhero universe that touch's upon current events/politics drew him in. The addition of Terrio is a plus in this department.

With all that said, we don't know if BvS is "too dark" and especially not JL1 since production on the movie hasn't even started yet. So much more is to happen before we start talking pushing this and that back with new directors. Jeez, lets get through March first.

I said I think he would.

To me MOS was too dark and BvS looks the same. If it is, BvS dark too, then with Snyder on board for JL1 the assumption would have to be it is dark too.

 

[Tra-El]

I said I think he would.

I don't think Affleck is equipped to take on a JL movie. It's too big for him. A solo Bat film..maybe 2 he can CERTAINLY handle, but the big project movies will be handled by Snyder, guaranteed. I don't see that changing, especially with WB handing the keys directly over to Snyder to form this entire DCEU's "sandbox." Snyder is here to stay whether anybody likes it or not. Maybe not for every film, but atleast the first few JL films.

To me MOS was too dark and BvS looks the same. If it is, BvS dark too, then with Snyder on board for JL1 the assumption would have to be it is dark too.

Nothing about Snyder is groundbreaking though and these assumptions aren't the cure for cancer when realizing something about a movie directed by a Zack Snyder type. You are going to get his style incorporated with his visuals. You're going to get his blue filters and what not, but his movies aren't dark all the time and Man of Steel wasn't as dark as some people make it out to be (this is the part where I say "IMO).

It's no surprise to see a rainy Gotham City with Batman be "dark". The Xfactor to me is Larry Fong and his cinematography. The Superman shots in the trailers have been AWESOME.

 

[Tobias]

I don't think Affleck is equipped to take on a JL movie. It's too big for him. A solo Bat film..maybe 2 he can CERTAINLY handle, but the big project movies will be handled by Snyder, guaranteed. I don't see that changing, especially with WB handing the keys directly over to Snyder to form this entire DCEU's "sandbox." Snyder is here to stay whether anybody likes it or not. Maybe not for every film, but atleast the first few JL films.

It's no surprise to see a rainy Gotham City with Batman be "dark". The Xfactor to me is Larry Fong and his cinematography. The Superman shots in the trailers have been AWESOME.

Could SS turn old WB/DC hierarchies upside down?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...tman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-a6865206.html

Dark style may has run its course? Or not. It fits Bats perfectly.

BvS will be a test for this dark, darker - however it turns out, Superman.

The GA will either like it or not. If not, then the unfortunate break for Supes was that that style was used in the effort to reboot him most recently.

 

[Tra-El]

Could SS turn old WB/DC hierarchies upside down?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...tman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-a6865206.html

Dark style may has run its course? Or not. It fits Bats perfectly.

BvS will be a test for this dark, darker - however it turns out, Superman.

The GA will either like it or not. If not, then the unfortunate break for Supes was that that style was used in the effort to reboot him most recently.

Huh?

All BvS needs to show is Superman saving the day and by the trailers, we know he's making a point to save those in need.

In trailer #2, we see Bruce saying: "..considering every time your hero saves a cat out of a tree you write a puff piece editorial...about an alien..who can burn the whole place down."

That suggests Superman doing Super things. We haven't seen that much in the trailers, which is great. All we see in the trailers is the influence of the fight between Bruce and Kal...mostly stemming from Bruce's point of view so as dark as some things may get that's necessary to the story their telling, I'm anticipating Supes having some key moments that represent his character. This "dark, darker Superman" seems to be over exaggerated by those who want to press the inconsistent issue.

 

[BH/HHH]

Darker Superman based off what? The trailers which have shown us what about 3% of the film. Come on!

 

[Tobias]

Huh?

All BvS needs to show is Superman saving the day and by the trailers, we know he's making a point to save those in need.

In trailer #2, we see Bruce saying: "..considering every time your hero saves a cat out of a tree you write a puff piece editorial...about an alien..who can burn the whole place down."

That suggests Superman doing Super things. We haven't seen that much in the trailers, which is great. All we see in the trailers is the influence of the fight between Bruce and Kal...mostly stemming from Bruce's point of view so as dark as some things may get that's necessary to the story their telling, I'm anticipating Supes having some key moments that represent his character. This "dark, darker Superman" seems to be over exaggerated by those who want to press the inconsistent issue.

As long as he has heroic moments that is great. If Snyder does that I will sort of forgive him for no speaking lines for Supes in last trailer.

The darker Superman issue gets overplayed insofar as those of us who think he was such in MOS are not asking to back to Donner.Its not an either or choice.

WB needs to find a way to make him engage with audiences. And be willing tochange/modify direction if he does not do so in BvS. Not saying he won't but if.

 

[Tra-El]

As long as he has heroic moments that is great. If Snyder does that I will sort of forgive him for no speaking lines for Supes in last trailer.

But in the trailer before that, we see Superman saving a Russian missile and saving people from burning buildings, but you're mad they didn't show Superman speak in the latest trailer?

It's time to sell the movie, now. People, especially the casuals and GA, will get a rise out of seeing the two face to face and ignite their battle between each other. That's the mission with these trailers.

Optimism shows that Superman will probably have some great speaking lines. He's standing all by himself in front of our Government and Senator Finch. I'm sure he's going to speak lot and make his stance be known. We see both Lois and Martha offering him advice so there's a lot of meat there for Supes with inevitable dialogue. I can only imagine how his face to face interactions with Lex can bring.

I'm pretty confident Snyder will handle Supes well. He's aware of all the s$%it talk from the fanboys.

 

[Marvin]

@Tobias
when you say dark are you talking about the color palette, settings(see raining alley) or the tone/story?
...or all of the above?

 

[Tobias]

@Tobias
when you say dark are you talking about the color palette, settings(see raining alley) or the tone/story?
...or all of the above?

Both.

On palette, Supes is more a Spidey/Cap character and the paletes of those films is I think more appropriate.

Tone? In MOS Martha tells him he does not owe humanity anything. And on. Let's not debate MOS.

This film from what we've seen will be dark.

In that case how audiences react to Batman and Superman in the post-film surveys some will be asked to complete will tell the tale. Those results usually leak so we should know at some point too.

Supposedly Flash and Shazam will be more fun films. And why? That is the nature of those characters. It is also Superman's nature. Just saying. If post film surveys indicate this, then the last thing WB should do IMO is double down on a darker Supes.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

The difference between Supes and Flash or Shazam is gravitas. This guy has the weight of the world on his shoulders because he's the only one that can bear it's weight.

Your problem Tobias is that you're stuck in the Silver Age where Superman could sneeze solar systems into oblivion and make midget clones pop out his hand.

That's a bygone era. Let. It. Go.

 

[Tra-El]

The difference between Supes and Flash or Shazam is gravitas. This guy has the weight of the world on his shoulders because he's the only one that can bear it's weight.

Your problem Tobias is that you're stuck in the Silver Age where Superman could sneeze solar systems into oblivion and make midget clones pop out his hand.

That's a bygone era. Let. It. Go.

Thing is, we've seen all of that. Reeve's Supes was Silver Age shticks like throwing plastic S's and turning the world counter clockwise. We've seen it. We've see the "Golly, jee Wiz" Superman over and over and over. There's more to Superman than that and there's ways for Superman to be the beacon of light in this DCEU. Everyone is worried about how they are moving too fast and this and that but refuse to give this Superman time to get where he's inevitably heading towards. I truly do believe that Superman is going to become the Superman people wanted since Man of Steel, but I'm more than excited to go through the journey and tap into Superman's internal warfare and what may be deep inside of his mind that may not make him so perfect. Superman is a core of the heart character. If we get that, he's still Superman, flaw or "dark" or not.

This is just the beginning. The darkness in characters as they get to know each other over time will dwindle down to more of a team like brother and sisterhood. Let's just enjoy the journey.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

MoS and Superman in BvS isn't "dark" or "gritty". He's genuine and it seems people can not make the distinction.