BvS Skepticism Regarding the Film - Part 9

[Marvin]

Both.

On palette, Supes is more a Spidey/Cap character and the paletes of those films is I think more appropriate.

Tone? In MOS Martha tells him he does not owe humanity anything. And on. Let's not debate MOS..

Martha telling him he the single basic rule every superhero works under has little to with tone. Superman chooses to help people, he doesn't actually have to. That's the point and that's what makes him even more inspirational, even with spiderman it's that it's his choice that makes it all the more beautiful even in the face of someone like mary jane telling him he's either done enough or doesn't actually owe anyone his life. I get that it's sour medicine for 'fans' to not see the mentor speak the usual black and white lead a horse to water stuff. But that this scene also happens in a movie with a slanted senate hearing that should paint a very vivid picture as to where she is possibly coming from. But still, not the point. Superman has succeeded for years in the modern marketplace with this equivalent level of 'dark' tone. I'd argue it's why he's found success in comics whereas the movies have get this 'been frozen in time'.
I'd point super celebrated stories such as action comics 775, Whatever happened to(this scene almost arguing my point entirely), Kingdom come and to a to some super relevant extent this one. Point being this material has room for it and it's also found great success in doing so, you really don't have the right to decide what is right or wrong for the material outside of your own preference. I suppose that might have very well been what you meant, thus this is an argument as to why your preference is...not the be all.
That being said, I don't think we've seen that the film will have a wider tone than just one scene.

As for the color palette, you must be talking about Raimi spiderman. But sure, who knows. And maybe Cap would benefit form the bourne movies palette. I personally don't think it matters outside of circumstance. If the scene calls for night, it's dark. If it calls for overcast(see fall weather or sad) then it's overcast. I personally saw a wide range in mos but hopefully we see even more things explored.

Lastly, there is a mega difference between a story being ground and or serious. I'd argue even cap stays within this range. And a story being Dark and Gritty(palette et all). I'd argue netflix cbm stuff is really the only place we see such a thing these days.

 

[BH/HHH]

To many people are stuck in the past when it comes to Superman

 

[blumatic]

Back to skepticism.

I don't think Snyder gets Superman as he does batman.

Its clear in the latest trailer.

The Batwing, the warehouse Bat fight scene. Poetry in motion. Literally.

There is a reason there is a thread on batman's fighting style and not Superman's.

Snyder can be brilliant and what he is doing with Bats in the film could well turn out definitive.

In a way, I doubt anyone would argue this, MOS was not definitive.

To not have Superman or Clark speak at all in the final trailer shows if not som dis-interest in Supes at least a blindness to how he is coming off so far in the bits we have.

This is a great article I mostly agree with. Perfect history lesson of where Supes was and where he is now. And what's needed to get him back to his old glory.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/02/the-trouble-with-superman/435408/

I remember around the time Superman Returns was coming out, there was a video about the history of Superman.

In that video they described Supermans fighting style as a brawler. It sort of bar fight style. Snyder captured that perfectly.

I would say Batman is an easier concept to grasp and easier to feed an audience than Batman.

Superman is know as a goodie to shoes....but that hero is not really acceptable unless he could really fight in a way pleasing to the audience.

 

[Bren]

I'm one of those 'watch the film before judging' guys. And for all this 'dark/gritty/serious' waffle, I just hope to see a reasonably upbeat, optimistic happy Superman.

Reasonable as in, as best an upbeat optimistic happy guy can be when his government wants blame him for an alien attack, while a super-egotistical boy-genius and a somewhat irrational super-vigilante both want you dead.

 

[Tobias]

Thing is, we've seen all of that. Reeve's Supes was Silver Age shticks like throwing plastic S's and turning the world counter clockwise. We've seen it. We've see the "Golly, jee Wiz" Superman over and over and over. There's more to Superman than that and there's ways for Superman to be the beacon of light in this DCEU. Everyone is worried about how they are moving too fast and this and that but refuse to give this Superman time to get where he's inevitably heading towards. I truly do believe that Superman is going to become the Superman people wanted since Man of Steel, but I'm more than excited to go through the journey and tap into Superman's internal warfare and what may be deep inside of his mind that may not make him so perfect.

Films today do not have the luxury of a guarantee of more.It'd be great to see the journey as you describe over several films but, as no one knows when or if there will be more, that journey can't be dragged out.

Its not dark, its 50 shades of gray which Superman needs. IMO. Not going back to the bumbling Clark from the Donner films. I keep saying I don't want a return to the Silver Age.

From The Atlantic:


Taken together, these stories point to a way forward for Superman that could easily recapture people’s imagination while mirroring Siegel and Shuster’s original vision: stories of a man with the powers of a god, who chooses to live as a normal person and fight for normal people; stories that are part newsroom drama and part mind-bending superheroics, mixing in corrupt corporations and alien invaders from other dimensions; stories that can veer into snappy romantic comedy or genuine emotion with the removal of a pair of glasses; stories that stop trying to reboot Superman and instead refine and build on what’s already there.
In other words, if you believe in him, the man can fly.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I'm one of those 'watch the film before judging' guys. And for all this 'dark/gritty/serious' waffle, I just hope to see a reasonably upbeat, optimistic happy Superman.

Reasonable as in, as best an upbeat optimistic happy guy can be when his government wants blame him for an alien attack, while a super-egotistical boy-genius and a somewhat irrational super-vigilante both want you dead.

At least one other person gets it. (I'm sure there are many more.)

 

[BH/HHH]

Superman has survived so long because he's been able to change or adapt to the times. Infact if you want to talk about staying true to the origins of a character. Read Action Comics #1 he's a very serious character in that story.

 

[Bren]

So staying true to the more original characters would see a movie where Batman would shoot Superman for breaking and entering
And as mentioned before, receding hairline comic-accurate hahaha

 

[Nemeres]

To many people are stuck in the past when it comes to Superman

It's a decades-old character with heavy thematic baggage. Rebelling against "bad" change is indicative of how meaningful he is, it's a good symptom. "Symptom", as in a reaction to a clear problem.

 

[Tobias]

It's a decades-old character with heavy thematic baggage. Rebelling against "bad" change is indicative of how meaningful he is, it's a good symptom. "Symptom", as in a reaction to a clear problem.

Interesting take. Thanks.

The disadvantage for Supes is any "bad" change the GA reacts to can't be tweaked or corrected. Snyder did the solo and will do BvS and JL.

The other characters get different directors who surely will adjust things to anything negative the GA reacts to in BvS and JL re: those characters.

Snyder is fine-tuning a great running "engine" in Batman. To me he does not seem to be doing the more needed tune-up of the Superman engine.

 

[BH/HHH]

It's a decades-old character with heavy thematic baggage. Rebelling against "bad" change is indicative of how meaningful he is, it's a good symptom. "Symptom", as in a reaction to a clear problem.

Is there a clear problem? I certainly don't see one. Superman is a character than changes or adapts with the times.

 

[Tobias]

Is there a clear problem? I certainly don't see one. Superman is a character than changes or adapts with the times.

I think too many fans are in denial.

From Atlantic:

And yet, for a character who gains his power from the light of the sun, Superman is curiously eclipsed by other heroes. According to numbers provided by Diamond Distributors, the long-running Superman comic sold only 55,000 copies a month in 2015, down from around 70,000 in 2010—a mediocre showing even for the famously anemic comic-book market. That’s significantly less than his colleague Batman, who last year moved issues at a comparatively brisk 150,000 a month. Mass media hasn’t been much kinder: The longest-running Superman television show, 2001’s Smallville, kept him out of his iconic suit for a decade. Superman Returns recouped its budget at the box office, but proved mostly forgettable. 2013’s Man of Steel drew sharp criticism from critics and audiences alike for its bleak tone and rampaging finale. Trailers for the sequel, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, have shifted the focus (and top billing) to the Dark Knight. Worst of all, conventional wisdom puts the blame on Superman himself. He’s boring, people say; he’s unrelatable, nothing like the Marvel characters dominating the sales charts and the box office. More than anything, he seems embarrassing. Look at him. Truth? Justice? He wears

Unfortunately, in January the Superman book dropped to 37K sales. One of the lowest ever. Action is hovering at 30K. Outsold by WW, Flash, GL for several years now and selling close to the Superman title.

Deadpool is going to approach 500 million in its second weekend per projections and MOS did total of 668 WW in its total run. And Deadpool cost less than 100 million to make. Hopefully a lesson for studios bloating these budgets.

Denying there is a problem is self-defeating.

Ignore the numbers but, you can bet WB is/will not.

 

[BH/HHH]

I think too many fans are in denial.

From Atlantic:

And yet, for a character who gains his power from the light of the sun, Superman is curiously eclipsed by other heroes. According to numbers provided by Diamond Distributors, the long-running Superman comic sold only 55,000 copies a month in 2015, down from around 70,000 in 2010—a mediocre showing even for the famously anemic comic-book market. That’s significantly less than his colleague Batman, who last year moved issues at a comparatively brisk 150,000 a month. Mass media hasn’t been much kinder: The longest-running Superman television show, 2001’s Smallville, kept him out of his iconic suit for a decade. Superman Returns recouped its budget at the box office, but proved mostly forgettable. 2013’s Man of Steel drew sharp criticism from critics and audiences alike for its bleak tone and rampaging finale. Trailers for the sequel, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, have shifted the focus (and top billing) to the Dark Knight. Worst of all, conventional wisdom puts the blame on Superman himself. He’s boring, people say; he’s unrelatable, nothing like the Marvel characters dominating the sales charts and the box office. More than anything, he seems embarrassing. Look at him. Truth? Justice? He wears

Unfortunately, in January the Superman book dropped to 37K sales. One of the lowest ever. Action is hovering at 30K. Outsold by WW, Flash, GL for several years now and selling close to the Superman title.

Deadpool is going to approach 500 million in its second weekend per projections and MOS did total of 668 WW in its total run.

Denying there is a problem is self-defeating.

Ignore the numbers but, you can bet WB is/will not.

How are fans in denial? Also were talking about the movies not the comics. The whole comic industry is in a mess right now anyway. Yet you have a Superman property Supergirl doing exceptionally well on TV right now and he's currently consistently in the movies for the first time since the 80s.

The comics are doing bad because the industry is in a mess and in Superman's case the writings been ****. You can't compare the comics to TV and film because the latter are both a booming industry whereas the former is a struggling one.

Whilst you're at it why not bring up Superman related sales from merchandise, cause we know for sure Superman related merch sales like crazy. T-Shirts, hoodies, toys, posters etc. But of course you'll ignore that cause it doesn't fit your point where the struggling comic industry does

You can't compare MOS to Deadpool or vice versa, Deadpool is a unique animal it's an R rated comic book film that's had exceptional marketing and been released in a competition-less February.

 

[Tobias]

How are fans in denial? Also were talking about the movies not the comics. The whole comic industry is in a mess right now anyway. Yet you have a Superman property Supergirl doing exceptionally well on TV right now and he's currently consistently in the movies for the first time since the 80s.

The comics are doing bad because the industry is in a mess and in Superman's case the writings been ****. You can't compare the comics to TV and film because the latter are both a booming industry whereas the former is a struggling one.

Whilst you're at it why not bring up Superman related sales from merchandise, cause we know for sure Superman related merch sales like crazy. T-Shirts, hoodies, toys, posters etc. But of course you'll ignore that cause it doesn't fit your point where the struggling comic industry does

You can't compare MOS to Deadpool or vice versa, Deadpool is a unique animal it's an R rated comic book film that's had exceptional marketing and been released in a competition-less February.

Deadpool in a generic sense. I saw it - my take is it was fun. I'm goig back to see it Wednesday with friends who are not into that kind of stuff but I convinced them. WOM its called.

Read the reviews. There is an outside chance it could approach a billion. One can't ignore that. One has to ask why? Its not because it is R rated. That normally holds back a film.

 

[Bren]

Whilst you're at it why not bring up Superman related sales from merchandise, cause we know for sure Superman related merch sales like crazy. T-Shirts, hoodies, toys, posters etc. But of course you'll ignore that cause it doesn't fit your point where the struggling comic industry does

Aaaaand he did.

 

[BH/HHH]

Deadpool in a generic sense. I saw it - my take is it was fun. I'm goig back to see it Wednesday with friends who are not into that kind of stuff but I convinced them. WOM its called.

Read the reviews. There is an outside chance it could approach a billion. One can't ignore that. One has to ask why? Its not because it is R rated. That normally holds back a film.

Did I say it's solely because it was r rated? Nope the point is the marketings been unique, the film is unique and as I said before its come out in February against nothing. Let's not forget that.

Aaaaand he did.

Yup!

 

[Tobias]

How are fans in denial? Also were talking about the movies not the comics. The whole comic industry is in a mess right now anyway. Yet you have a Superman property Supergirl doing exceptionally well on TV right now and he's currently consistently in the movies for the first time since the 80s.

The comics are doing bad because the industry is in a mess and in Superman's case the writings been ****. You can't compare the comics to TV and film because the latter are both a booming industry whereas the former is a struggling one.

Whilst you're at it why not bring up Superman related sales from merchandise, cause we know for sure Superman related merch sales like crazy. T-Shirts, hoodies, toys, posters etc. But of course you'll ignore that cause it doesn't fit your point where the struggling comic industry does

I don't know what the relative merchandise sales are, aside from the comics.

Please provide a link showing they are great. I have no idea, but if you have those kind of numbers that is great. Please share.

 

[BH/HHH]

All you gotta do is look around, people wearing T-Shirts, hoodies etc every day.

 

[jokesonm3]

Funny enough i'm wearing my MoS T-Shirt right now.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00H8IQW...m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1Q4NZEEXHE7M1RMGPMAC

 

[Doctor Jones]

Is there a clear problem? I certainly don't see one. Superman is a character than changes or adapts with the times.

There's a difference between modern update and changing and missing fundamentals to a character that are timeless.

Like brutally murdering someone justifies the argument, "Superman changes with the times." Come on guys, get with the program. This is 2016. I sincerely think MOS's Superman was a result of bad, illogical writing and the result was something they didn't intend and now they're trying to make lemonade out of it with BVS. As if Superman's actions were intended in the finale of MOS to spill over into something to continue and address. ********.

 

[Ahasverus]

There's a difference between modern update and changing and missing fundamentals to a character that are timeless.

Like brutally murdering someone justifies the argument, "Superman changes with the times." Come on guys, get with the program. This is 2016. I sincerely think MOS's Superman was a result of bad, illogical writing and the result was something they didn't intend and now they're trying to make lemonade out of it with BVS. As if Superman's actions were intended in the finale of MOS to spill over into something to continue and address. ********.

I do think Terrio is salvaging a messy thought process brought by David Goyer in MoS.. but I also think this might be a blessing in disguise to make things more.. interesting.

 

[Tobias]

There's a difference between modern update and changing and missing fundamentals to a character that are timeless.

Like brutally murdering someone justifies the argument, "Superman changes with the times." Come on guys, get with the program. This is 2016. I sincerely think MOS's Superman was a result of bad, illogical writing and the result was something they didn't intend and now they're trying to make lemonade out of it with BVS. As if Superman's actions were intended in the finale of MOS to spill over into something to continue and address. ********.

Exactly. Almost 3 years out and too many still deny the obvious. At this point it gains them nothing.

 

[Tobias]

All you gotta do is look around, people wearing T-Shirts, hoodies etc every day.

Hardly scientific. In my area Batman and Flash T shirts are the rage. But I would not use that as an argument Batman and Flash are the top WB franchises. Well, Batman is, but not necessarily the Flash.

Provide a link to your assertion Superman products sell well.

 

[BH/HHH]

There's a difference between modern update and changing and missing fundamentals to a character that are timeless.

Like brutally murdering someone justifies the argument, "Superman changes with the times." Come on guys, get with the program. This is 2016. I sincerely think MOS's Superman was a result of bad, illogical writing and the result was something they didn't intend and now they're trying to make lemonade out of it with BVS. As if Superman's actions were intended in the finale of MOS to spill over into something to continue and address. ********.

What a load of tosh, Superman killed in MOS because there was no other choice. He has killed in the comics you know.

Sure Superman was more serious in MOS but what did they really change? He saves people, he cares about people etc.

 

[BH/HHH]

Hardly scientific. In my area Batman and Flash T shirts are the rage. But I would not use that as an argument Batman and Flash are the top WB franchises. Well, Batman is, but not necessarily the Flash.

Provide a link to your assertion Superman products sell well.

Go find one, it's been on documentaries and all sorts about his merch selling.
Anyway im done with this cause you're obviously stuck in your paranoid world of only reading into what you want and ignoring other facts. Chou for now.