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Discussion in 'Fantastic Four' started by Silvermoth, Mar 8, 2021.
Yeah......doesn't wear well....
If you're suggesting a version where
they don't get obliterated by Wanda then it doesn't work.
The Illuminati scene isn't there to pay respect or do justice to iconic characters in their 838 versions. It's there so Wanda can murder them thus showcasing her power and full transformation into a very formidable supervillain. It was cool seeing the 838's answer to The Avengers. But they had to die.
That's why Waldron wrote it. That's why Raimi shot it. That's why Feige approved it.
I didn’t suggest that at all.
The result could have been the same with a much better, more interesting, more entertaining path toward that end that made better use of characters at hand and was more consistent with the personalities and capabilities of those characters.
I’ve used this example before. Samuel L Jackson requested Mace Windu not “go out like a punk” and George Lucas obliged.
These characters deserved similar consideration.
Samuel L. Jackson Didn't Want Mace Windu to Die Like a Punk - Fact Fiend
I’ve seen some online scoopers say this like MyTimeToShineHello (who to be fair has gotten quite a bit right) and that You Tuber guy but Kroll(who was previously at Variety) works for a reputable trade site Deadline and likely has way better sources than the ones who are saying Craig was actually playing Balder. So I tend to take his word over theirs. But its possible he was playing Balder at one point then the character got cut, and then they switched it to Reed before Craig ultimately decided to bail. Which lead to Krasinski playing the role. We may never know the full truth.
Honestly would he really be that much worse than Krasinski? Krasinski was…just there. He had little presence, imo. I really don’t think he embodies the aloof genius from the comics. I think Craig would’ve at least would’ve been a very interesting out of box choice if the rumor of him being Reed is true.
There could have been some subterfuge.
Since it’s often difficult to conceal that certain actors are shooting scenes, those who know may suggest they’re playing different characters than they really are.
That could be the reason behind the conflicting reports (and why we often get conflicting information regarding who will be appearing in films and what characters they’ll be playing.)
The 2 things are not equal. MoM is going for a horror movie and Terminator vibe with Wanda. The unstoppable force showing just how screwed our protagonist and the girl under his care are. It wasn't there for a big action scene where the Illuminati and Wanda fight for 10 mins and she barely beats them. That isn't the movie they were making. I get not enjoying the artistic intent, but the Mace Windu thing and the Illuminati were 2 different sequences going for different artistic intent. The comparison isn't valid
I believe the Balder thing more than the Reed thing. Daniel Craig is wrong for the role. Krasinski fits it a lot better.
It makes sense. Craig was on the shortlist for the Thor cast back when Matthew Vaughn was doing that movie.
I still think we’re going to find that the illuminati had some thing up their sleeves. We shall see.
I’m not comparing the films or intent. I’m comparing the characters. Strong characters shouldn’t go down, in SLJ’s Words ‘like chumps’. Variants or not, I have a problem with these iconic characters going out like feckless buffoons.
It didn’t have to be a 10 minute sequence. It just should have been less dumb.
There's the issue with your position on the matter.
They didn't go out like "feckless buffoons." They went out like any other Marvel character 838 or 616 that wasn't at Wanda's power level during that confrontation.
You want them to have a better chance against her with better writing but that's just not possible. The 616 Avengers would have probably died just as fast against the Scarlet Witch we saw in MoM.
Maybe Thor would have survived. Maybe.
Again, while I get not liking the artistic intent, the sequence accomplishes what it wanted to. Therefore it isn't "dumb" or poor writing. It is just writing you don't like. Bad writing is when a scene wants to accomplish something and either fails or contradicts the intent of the scene.
The problem with giving a single film-maker the right do whatever they want for the sake of the story they want to tell is there are broader implications.
As an exaggerated example, let’s imagine a film-maker wants to feature a scene in which Charles X has a Dumb and Dumber toilet scene.
No matter how appropriate that scene might be to the specific story, it damages an important character.
In this specific case, as one specific example
Reed tells an unknown opponent with unknown abilities and unknown intentions Black Bolt’s power so, as she did, she can take advantage of that information either defensively, offensively or both.
That was not the action of “the smartest man alive”.
That’s a poor representation of Reed Richards.
A better writer would have, for example, shown Reed to be distracted. If I had been writing it, I would have created a threat to Sue that would have thrown Reed off his game and made him vulnerable. There should have been a heroic act. A sacrifice of some kind.
Something like that would have been consistent with the character and far more interesting, entertaining and satisfying.
It’s not that complicated. It just involves a little thought and effort. Like I said earlier, any one of us could have written a better scene.
Lazy writing. We should expect and demand more.
Poor Reed. He's probably thinking "Great, another horror movie appearance. First the Cronenberg stuff, now this."
But that wasn't the point of the scene. Again, they want Wanda to be a Terminator threat. Reed and co are ultimately jobbers to that end. They are no different than the Marines in Aliens who die early to establish the threat. That is their role. This is not a movie about the Illuminati or developing them. They don't matter to the grand scheme. If developing the Illuminati mattered to the plot or some grand end, I may agree with you. But as it stands, I don't. Your characters serve the narrative of the story. Not the other way around.
And as for this Reed saying Black Bolt's power thing, again...Reed is just supposed to know she can do the Matrix thing to him randomly? Reed is trying to ultimately reason with her in that moment and de-escalate the situation..it backfired, but I find the assumption he should just know her powers to be based on the scene's results and not its actual logic. What Reed was doing made sense
I hate to say it, but I would pay to see that. Especially if it was Patrick Stewart.
Reed Richards isn’t a disposable red-shirt. If that’s all they wanted, they should have used someone else.
That’s the point. As an FF fan, it’s insulting.
For people who aren’t particular fans, I get that it’s no big deal.
But for me, I’ve suffered insult on top of insult with the mistreatment of these characters over the years and this is one more slap in the face.
Am I over-reacting? Am I allowing my emotions to get the better of me? Probably.
But I’m not happy, and I’m going to use this forum to vent.
If you don’t like it, you may want to put me on ignore, because I’m not going to promise this will be the end of it.
You can expect to read a lot of whining from me until I finally see the FF done justice on the big screen. And it seems that may be a long time from now.
I whined when Fox did the FF wrong and I’m going to whine when Marvel does the FF wrong. I’n not going to give them a free pass just because they’re Marvel.
Some of the comments in here are starting to remind me of comments from people defending Fox. “If Josh Trank makes a good film, who cares if the FF are different than the comics?” I care.
Amigo, I think you are overreacting here quite a bit. We can disagree and have a discussion where we disagree. I am not taking this discussion personally at all, so I have no reason to put you on ignore. You are free to vent, but at the same time I am free to disagree with you and cite said disagreement with my own logic. If you are taking the discussion super personally, I would recommend sitting back for a few hours and taking a chill pill. At the end of the day, these are movies. There isn't much use getting super worked up about movie stuff.
Back on the discussion, Reed of 616 isn't a disposable red shirt. But he wasn't in the movie. This was Reed of 838, and he was disposable in this story. This was simply there as a tease for fans. Did this have to be Reed? No, but Clint Barton didn't have to be the guy shooting Thor in that movie either.
No, I’m fine and I get your point.
it’s not your comments I’m taking personally. It’s my disappointment with what Marvel did in the film.
And if you can watch that film and enjoy it, great, I’m happy for you.
I won’t be buying it or watching it on Disney +. I’ll wait until they, hopefully, do something better.
Marvel: Hey! Willie Lumpkin! Look at this. Isn’t it cool? We know you’ve been waiting a long time for this.
Me: Hell yeah!
Marvel: ( shortly after ) Oh, wait, on second thought, F*** you, Willie Lumpkin.
I’m not overly familiar with Craig’s work but I actually would be curious to see how Craig does as Reed. I wouldn’t say he would fit the role necessarily, at least as traditionally imagined but I find the idea of playing the role kind of interesting as I do think getting a famous Bond actor like Craig to play a role like Reed to be pretty inspired. Of course, he wouldn’t even be my 50th choice for the role as I don’t see him as a proper fit, and its very likely this rumor of playing the role isn’t even true.
By the way Willie, how well did you think John Krasinski did as Reed? I thought he was dull personally and lacked presence. Granted, he obviously wasn’t given the best material to work with and he was in it for a very brief amount of time but after seeing him here I don’t have much interest in seeing him play the role again in the main timeline.
THIS. the writers/producers admitted he was watching a lot of ALIENS and said to himself: "Gee it would be awesome to off a lot of people like in Aliens, treat the superheroes like space marines." Horrible idea. Horrible. Idea. This man does not value the characters and clearly does not love those who were offed.