So let's talk about Mask of the Phantasm...

Discussion in 'Batman World' started by Brain Damage, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

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    I actually beg to differ with regards to bruce. He makes a decision as the age of 8 to dedicate his life to a cause. A concept of doubt towards committing to that is obviously going to creep in. How many people want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.

    the reason it's a cliche is that it's probably the only thing that could have changed the course of bruce. Like he said, he never counted on being happy, what makes anyone happier than being in a relationship with someone they truly care about.

    besides having nothing stop potentially stopping him makes him a 2 dimensional character.

    i don't get what you mean about the defining.



    the killing aspect wouldn't stop andrea being the phantasm, it didn't stop bruce being batman, it was merely a sympton of being eaten up by the path of vengeance.

    I would say the batman mask itself is not what scares alfred, it's the eyes (hence why we get a close up of the eyes)m bruce's eyes are what have become scary and not the costume and his eyes are defined by his almaganated loss. he didn't have fear in his eyes before (i am a believer the costume itself is irrelevant and the eyes are the telling part as they are focussed on alot in motp). in fairness his costume is no less intimidating than supermans, or lets say...black canary.

    i don't see anything wrong with bruce wanting to not be batman, being batman isnt' a great thing as everyone who's ever worked with bruce has encountered.

    because inhumanity which isn't rationalised in adult hood is just plain lunacy.

    the only reason bruce becomes strong to the actions of others in dcau is because he was royally burned by andrea back in the day. Even in perchance to dream if he had his perfect life, andrea wouldn't have been part of it, that's how much she burnt him.

    as females in superhero films go, she's certainly the best love interest to date and is a double beacor warning of what the hero could have had or could have become if he didn't walk that line so finely. andrea beaumont is everything good and everything bad in bruce at the same time.
     
    #51
  2. Godzilla2014

    Godzilla2014 Deadpan Snarker

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    True.

    He also had the Joker threatening to kill people unless he exposed his identity as Batman.

    That's the point. He was a misguided young man lost in his desire for revenge before that scene.

    In The Dark Knight, Bruce thought that Gotham City was approaching a day when it wouldn't need Batman because the police would do their jobs.

    I'm not saying she should have reappeared, I just would have liked the events in the film to have been brought up again. Maybe just reference Andrea, without her actually showing up. That's all.
     
    #52
  3. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Everything Under the Sun

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    :applaud
     
    #53
  4. Brother Jack

    Brother Jack Believer

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    I think it's one of the very best Batman movies, and one of the best superhero films period. I'd call it on par with Batman Begins as second best behind TDK, which is fitting considering both movies deal heavily with Bruce's early days and the creation of Batman. It is probably the apex of the TAS continuum, and the score by Shirley Walker is in my opinion the best ever written for a bat-flick.
     
    #54
  5. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    I think no one would want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.

    That is PRECISELY why Batman is such a remarkable character. That's why no other orphan in the world makes such a decision. Because no one else can do what he does.

    If we could find opther people with such a determination, then Batman would be just another guy in a bat suit.

    Yeah, that's how the average man would feel and do. Forget everything before it starts because of a girl. Batman should be above that. At least when he is not Batman yet.

    Yeah. Determination is two dimensional.

    That loving a girl is not part of the Batman origin equation. Revenge, justice, hatred, frustration. But not a girl.

    First of all, if you think the bat-suit is irrelevant then maybe you'd like some average vigilante in a coat but with hate in his glance. The suit is the core of the Batman character. It is what Bruce built in order to scare criminals. Countles stories have been told about how Bruce tried to fight crime wiothout the suit and failed miserably.

    And Batman suit is comparable to Black Canary's or Superman's? I mean, shiny colors vs black, mask vs no mask and a long etc.

    Now, if you tell me that Bruce didn't have fear in his yees before a girl broke his heart, then why bother in including the Waynes' killing? Let's make this superhero that scares people because he has a broken heart. According to you, a girl walking out of someone is what really gives you what's needed to scare people.

    Sure, let's make movies about Bruce Wayne and not Batman. Why having a character with cool suits and gadgets and a huge internal conflict when you can have a billionaire with love's sorrows?

    What's wrong with it?

    What's wrong is that if anything would stop Bruce of becoming Batman should be more than just a girl.

    He rationalizes it into this Batman figure who will bring justice to this world.

    The birth of Batman is about grieving his parents. That's what burnt him, not some girl that left him.

    Sorry, but Catwoman is the one. She's the one that mirrors him with her double life, mask and intyernal conflict. This Andrea - before she became the Phantasm which is when Bruce decided that she was hot enough to quit his mision before starting it - is not the troubled soul Catwoman is.

    Catwoman is everything good and bad Bruce is as Batman.
     
    #55
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  6. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this as BB didn't drive me crazy either. And included a girl into Batman's origin too.

    Always heavily based on Elfman's previous work.
     
    #56
  7. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

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    there are plenty of things 8 year olds would like to be. infact i've wanted to be a pilot since i was five. 8 is not that young to have a career goal.

    it doesn't make him remarkable, it just kinda makes him a lil damaged and odd.

    If we could find opther people with such a determination, then Batman would be just another guy in a bat suit.


    wait, here you are judging bruce's qualities as batman before he even becomes batman.

    but in the beginning he is just bruce and is not and has had no experience of being batman.

    and you forget, it's not because of a girl, he specifically states 'he didn't count on being happy'. to be fair, whether it was andrea or heroin, it wouldn't matter as such but the result would remain. but bruce was ultimately saved from himself before he falls too far.


    sure, on its own it is. anything on its own is.

    now you really walked into this one

    watch the dcau episode where the justice league see their future coutnerparts, and batman meets bruce wayne of the future.

    the old bruce manages without any form of costume to scare the life outta the joker goon, no costume necessary, heck the younger one is quite surprised by the methods.

    that's all eyes. The suit builds around this but it's eyes first and foremost. put another character in it and it won't have the same affect.

    and i think you are oversimplyfing andreas role in this film, she's not just a girl, she is the only thing that's ever made him happy since his parents died. she was effectively his crutch out of dispair and when he was just bout to climb out of it, she pushed him right to those depth again, closed the door and threw away the key

    why isn't there room to do both, again, why are you boxing him up into a simple character.

    well clearly from the story, obviously not.

    and you keep saying batman, he's not batman, he's just bruce wayne at this time. nothing can stop batman being batman, bur andrea could stop bruce (actually she had a chance to stop batman as well but in that case they woudl be saving each other).

    look at the stupid reason batman stopped in the first place, his health collasped and he was forced to use a gun. hardly a reason to let innocent victims be taken down by thugs for the next 20 years.

    again, somewhat childish.

    how can he rationalise it into a figure that doesn't exist yet? he didn't even KNOW he needed an alternate persona till his first attempts with the muggers went poorly.


    the story isnt about the birth of batman, it's about the death of bruce wayne. there's a complete difference and i'm not sure you are getting the subtleties of it.

    in a sense, the andrea beaumont escapade was bruce's last touch with humanity and the story is how he lost touch with everything


    selina kyle never loved bruce, she loved batman, therefore that relationship could never go anywhere.

    oh this is just insane. she took a far darker path than bruce did, she did the training, got the phantasm gear and systematically killed everyone involved with her father's murder while abroad for a considerable amount of time. Hers is even worse, bruce's parents were at the wrong place at the wrong time, andrea's dad was assassinated by his old colleagues in cold blood after being on the run. if that doesn't mess someone up, i don't know what would.

    its alright to not want to like andrea but you can't underplay her role in bruce's story. It's huge.

    and that's not even considering his actions with her, lead to her sparing terry's father's life and leads to bruce's eventual relationship with his son. So in a sense, bruce did save her in the end since she wasn't willing to see another child go through what he did.
     
    #57
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  8. Brother Jack

    Brother Jack Believer

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    It's less Elfman-heavy than her work on TAS, which in its early days at least utilized Elfman's main theme quite a bit. Mask of the Phantasm, however, only uses Walker's own themes and material, creating a sound that is reminiscent of the Burton films but still goes beyond it. When I listen to the score, I hear Batman music than transcends specific directors and cinematic takes on the character, and instead hear the Batman of all eras and incarnations.
     
    #58
  9. Two-Face

    Two-Face Harvey Dent

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    Why this movie isn't on bluray? Gotham Knight looked amazing but MOTP should look like that too!
     
    #59
  10. Godzilla2014

    Godzilla2014 Deadpan Snarker

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    Agreed. I would love to see a Blu-Ray/DVD with a lot more special features as well. Commentaries, featurettes, et cetera.
     
    #60
  11. Elevator Man

    Elevator Man Well-Known Member

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    Thanks I needed a good laugh. She's the best Batman love interest ever who's only been introduced in a 1hr 17 minute film. Then never ever used again. While Catwoman has been in 70 years of comics, as well as tv shows, animated series and three live action movies (including TDKR, excluding Catwoman (2004) aka CINO). Whose relationship with Batman has developed and matured for years. Including their alter egos. Don't get me wrong I think Andrea served her purpose in MOTP. And she's an interesting character. But her relationship with Batman or Bruce wasn't meant to be. She isn't even close to the best love interest. Not by a long shot, imo.

    I guess if you're going by TAS, which is still a load of bull. To each their own.

    Or maybe the writers just thought she was a plot device and nothing more. She served her purpose in MOTP. Her cahracter was made for MOTP that's probably why TAS or wherever you saw that from didn't include her in the photos.
     
    #61
  12. Godzilla2014

    Godzilla2014 Deadpan Snarker

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    Wholeheartedly agreed. That's my biggest problem with the character: She is made to be far too important to never mention again.
     
    #62
  13. Travesty

    Travesty Well-Known Member

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    So do you think the same about Rachel Dawes in the Nolan films? I highly doubt we'll see those in any other movies or books.
     
    #63
  14. Godzilla2014

    Godzilla2014 Deadpan Snarker

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    I don't think she's the best love interest for Batman, but I highly doubt that there won't be a mention of her in The Dark Knight Rises. I don't mind that both Andrea Beaumont and Rachel Dawes only exist in a single continuity. My problem is that Andrea is never mentioned again in the DCAU, the continuity she is supposed to crucial to.
     
    #64
  15. jonathancrane

    jonathancrane I love Marvel, DC & EC!

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    Technically, she was mentioned again in Justine League Unlimited - "Epilogue."
    Her role (even though nonspeaking,) was still important.
     
    #65
  16. Godzilla2014

    Godzilla2014 Deadpan Snarker

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    True. Still, she never came up when Batman's past was brought up.
     
    #66
  17. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Mh, it was you who said “He makes a decision as the age of 8 to dedicate his life to a cause. A concept of doubt towards committing to that is obviously going to creep in. How many people want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.”

    Then I agreed with you that few people can decide something at 8 and keep it without doubting about it. Now you disagree with me. Vicariously you’re disagreeing with yourself.

    So, what is it? Regular people doubt or not about decision made at 8.

    Determination = damage, oddity.

    According to you.

    Which is precisely my point: you can’t.

    Regular guys would forget everything because of a hot girl before starting. Bruce wouldn’t.

    AFTER he is Batman and he thinks there’s no point in keep being it, that’s a different song.

    But if traditionally Bruce decided to avenge his parents’ mirder, and he still want that at 20-something, that describes a part of Bruce Batman still has.

    The result must always be the same: he becomes Batman.

    Now what makes him doubt before becoming Batman is what matters here. And a girl sounds cliched (‘love can change people’) and insufficient (just a girl? Really. That close he was of not becoming Batman because of a girl?).

    No. Determination is never on its own. Nothing ever is. Everything is within a context, linked to a number of other factors.

    Only treatments are 2 dimensional.

    So, I should learn from the very take on the character that I am precisely critizising?

    As I said, if your idea of Batman is a billionaire without a bat-suit, knock yourself out.

    Some of us think a Batman story must include Batman. There is a bat before the man. And for a good reason.

    Or Bruce could have been a father and find happiness in parenthood. Or he could have surrender to a good self-destructive pleasurable life and find happìness in that.

    Options are many.

    But that’s not a part of what Batman origin story is. And a girl in not either.

    On the contrary. I say Batman includes both Bruce Wayne and Batman.

    You say Batman’s suit is irrelevant. Bruce just need some angry eyes and that’s it.

    Which is why I’m critizising such story. Remember?

    Batman’s determination and obsession didn’t start with his mask. It started with Bruce Wayne. The mask was just the culmination of a long process.

    I’m not sure where did this happen?

    But to doubt of what you’ve been sure of because of a girl is, again, quite cliched. Andrea was just placed there in an attempt to re-tell Batman’s origin. But she was not needed. Batman doesn’t start because Bruce couldn’t get married. His anger doesn’t come from a failed romance.

    He rationalizes it in the process of becoming Batman also. He kept drawing sketches about what he needed.

    I’m certainly not getting the subtleties of your own personal poetric re-phrasing of what the film is. Batman is born in the movie, therefore is a Batman origin movie.

    Yeah, that last touch with humanity could be portrayed in many different ways. I’m saying a girl is one of the most cliched ones they could have chosen. Not to mention that it has nothing to do with becoming Batman. Becoming Batman has never included a broken heart.

    Which does not contradict anything I said.

    A good love interest is not the one that goes somewhere necessarily. Best love interests, from Romeo and Juliet, and this improvised Andrea Beaumont thing, don’t go anywhere.

    Catwoman is all that too.

    But naturally she IS part of Batman history and nobody thought of having her as some reason for Bruce NOT wanting to become Batman in the first place.
    [FONT=&quot]
    I don’t. History does. She has never become part of the official Bruce’s story. Andrea was an element other people rapidly forgot about.

    Well, that’s an alternmative future. Also non defining of Batman’s origin.


    [/FONT]
     
    #67
  18. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Everything Under the Sun

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    Bumpin' my own thread because 20 years later and this film still rocks.
     
    #68
  19. Two-Face

    Two-Face Harvey Dent

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    Damn right. :batman:

    I would love to see Andrea Beaumont in a live-action Bat film but that's unlikely to happen. :( I enjoyed her character more than I did with Rachel Dawes.
     
    #69
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  20. the5timechamp

    the5timechamp Well-Known Member

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    I love it, despite its few very annoying animation/audio imperfections..
    lots of great scenes.
     
    #70
  21. Drakepool

    Drakepool Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the one Bat-story where I don't mind Joker hijacking himself into the main plot.
     
    #71
  22. GremlinZilla89

    GremlinZilla89 Well-Known Member

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    Begins and Phantasm are my favorite Batman movies ever made.

    Despite this film being half the length (somes less than half) of all the other Bat films, it manages to tell a tighter, more character focused story than all of them (Begins being tied with it imo). It manages to cram a lot of information and revelations into a small runtime and it all works outs flawlessly. The only real complaints I have are merely superficial and easily forgotten. I prefer it over TDK, Rises, Batman 89, Returns and honestly it's not below Begins either, merely right up along side it.
     
    #72
  23. Thoix

    Thoix Well-Known Member

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    I just re-watched Batman: Mask of the Phantasm today and wow does it hold up! While I prefer The Dark Knight Trilogy, it is without a doubt better than the rest of Batman movies.
     
    #73
  24. Kane52630

    Kane52630 Just Some Nut

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  25. Kane52630

    Kane52630 Just Some Nut

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