The Last Jedi So was Luke right...? (SPOILERS)

[writer0327]

Is it time for the Jedi to end? Yoda seemed to agree as well. But why? I'm still not comfortable with their conclusion

 

[FunkMiller]

It’s time for the endless back and forth between the Sith and the Jedi to end, and it’s time for all this religious reverence foolishness to end as well.

 

[writer0327]

Is that what Yoda and Luke meant?

So Force users won't be tied to a religion? Just people with abilities but no dogma?

 

[FunkMiller]

Is that what Yoda and Luke meant?

So Force users won't be tied to a religion? Just people with abilities but no dogma?

I think so, yes. That’s what Yoda was driving at. This movie is really about letting go. And that includes letting go of old dogma, as you say. It’s not quite an atheistic text, because the force is a real thing, but the sub-text is quite apparent.

 

[Jedi-Spirit]

Is it time for the Jedi to end? Yoda seemed to agree as well. But why? I'm still not comfortable with their conclusion

Yoda did not agree, go back to the theater...

 

[Tacit Ronin]

But at the end Luke says he won't be the last Jedi. So the Jedi will live on. But they will be different. Better.

 

[Tony Stark]

Luke wanted the Jedi to end, but Yoda made it clear it was Luke's responsibility to pass on what he had learned and while it was too late for Kylo, Rey was the "new hope".

 

[flickchick85]

They were basically pushing a faith vs. organized religion thing - that the problem wasn't the Force, but the dogmatic rules and exclusionary tactics they'd built around the Force over time. The Jedi should still exist, but not be tied to the old ways/teachings.

 

[writer0327]

Yoda did not agree, go back to the theater...

When Yoda zapped the tree, Luke said "So it IS time for the Jedi to end?" I thought Yoda answered "Yes" or something to that effect. Did I mishear that?

 

[idiot09]

They were basically pushing a faith vs. organized religion thing - that the problem wasn't the Force, but the dogmatic rules and exclusionary tactics they'd built around the Force over time. The Jedi should still exist, but not be tied to the old ways/teachings.

Wasnt it supposed to be that Luke was already teaching his pupils a more evolved version of the Jedi code? That wasnt as steeped in dogma and rigid like it was before?

I think its time the Jedi principles evolve. I think the person whose teachings they should look at is Qui-Gon. I think he was the ideal Jedi.

I would love it if it Episode 9, they touch upon this, and Luke mentors Rey to be more like that, and create a new Jedi Order based on those teachings, one that are more based on the gray code than the old Jedi code(which failed).

 

[flickchick85]

Wasnt it supposed to be that Luke was already teaching his pupils a more evolved version of the Jedi code? That wasnt as steeped in dogma and rigid like it was before?

When were we told this? Or that Luke had any problems with the old ways of the Jedi before now? Unless I missed something, we weren't really shown any significant downsides of the Jedi Order until the prequels. Luke didn't seem to have any reservations w/ the Jedi code at the end of RotJ, imo. So I assumed his teachings to a whole new generation were mostly adhering to the old ways as much as he could.

I think its time the Jedi principles evolve. I think the person whose teachings they should look at is Qui-Gon. I think he was the ideal Jedi.

I would love it if it Episode 9, they touch upon this, and Luke mentors Rey to be more like that, and create a new Jedi Order based on those teachings, one that are more based on the gray code than the old Jedi code(which failed).

I agree with everything else, though.

 

[idiot09]

When were we told this? Or that Luke had any problems with the old ways of the Jedi before now? Unless I missed something, we weren't really shown any significant downsides of the Jedi Order until the prequels. Luke didn't seem to have any reservations w/ the Jedi code at the end of RotJ, imo. So I assumed his teachings to a whole new generation were mostly adhering to the old ways as much as he could.

Hmm. I came across that while reading a post on reddit, and just found out that its written that way for the EU/Legends. And that's probably not canon.

One of the small but beautiful details of the EU is Luke's Jedi order is much more flexible, forgiving, pragmatic and open; there are marriages, non-recruiting of children, various levels of spirituality and even some who "lean" a little to the Sith. Luke's greatest impact in the EU is making a better more practical Jedi Order.

I also find this in one of the comment which was quite interesting :

Pretty much this. Luke was successful in facing down Sidious and Vader where Yoda and Obi-Wan failed partially because he wasn't constrained by "old Jedi Order" values and teachings. Most importantly, whereas the old Jedi were pretty much forced not to make personal connections with people, Luke made deep personal connections with his friends and allies.

What do you think about this?

 

[flickchick85]

Hmm. I came across that while reading a post on reddit, and just found out that its written that way for the EU/Legends. And that's probably not canon.


I also find this in one of the comment which was quite interesting :



What do you think about this?

I think it sounds like the EU (and fan fiction writers) spent years trying to reconcile the OT (where the Jedi were just great!) and the prequels (where the Jedi Order kinda sucked and brought on a lot of their own problems), and decided to do so through Luke. That discrepancy hasn't really been acknowledged in the canon films until now though, imo, and they merely handled it through Luke in a different way.

 

[boocherhix]

But at the end Luke says he won't be the last Jedi. So the Jedi will live on. But they will be different. Better.

Little. Yellow...

 

[KingCheops]

Jedi and Sith wield the Ashla and Bogan. The light and the dark. I'm the one in the middle. The Bendu.

Jedi and Sith are extremist philosophies. Both deny basic emotions that are inherent to all living beings. Balance cannot exist where either philosophy is present.

 

[Brother Jack]

When Yoda zapped the tree, Luke said "So it IS time for the Jedi to end?" I thought Yoda answered "Yes" or something to that effect. Did I mishear that?

Yoda didn't destroy the texts, though. Rey took them and stashed them in the Falcon. Yoda knew this. The Jedi will continue through Rey and the next generation of force adepts in the galaxy (broom kid).

 

[Lighthouse]

Is that what Yoda and Luke meant?

So Force users won't be tied to a religion? Just people with abilities but no dogma?

I think that was his whole point. It's the Jedi's dedication to tradition and dogma that allowed the Sith to pull a coup right under their noses.

 

[Mjölnir]

I think that was his whole point. It's the Jedi's dedication to tradition and dogma that allowed the Sith to pull a coup right under their noses.

The Jedi were arrogant but I'm not so sure that a bunch of less organized force users here and there will be any better of detecting a plot like the Sith were doing. There are other force groups around in the galaxy and they were even further away from stopping it.

 

[writer0327]

Yoda didn't destroy the texts, though. Rey took them and stashed them in the Falcon. Yoda knew this. The Jedi will continue through Rey and the next generation of force adepts in the galaxy (broom kid).

That part I know, but does it discount what Yoda said? Because I could have sworn Yoda agreed with Luke.

 

[stillanerd]

Well with regards to what this movie says about the Jedi, the Sith, The Force, etc. here's how big of a nerd I am--I don't think I've ever seen a mainstream Star Wars that was so subversive about it's own mythology than Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords. The fact that it's Luke Skywalker of all people who undermines the mystique makes it even more so. If you think about it, Luke kind of reaches a similar conclusion regarding the Jedi and Sith that Kriea does in that video game. The only difference is he accepts that the Force than any one Jedi or Sith, and that it's folly to try and put yourself on it's level.

Also, while he spent the whole film rejecting the idea he was a legend (because to him, that allowed his pride to get the best of him) he ended up becoming one only this time on his own terms rather than what he was "destined" to do.

EDIT: Actually, Kylo Ren kind of adopted Kriea's viewpoint, now that I think about it.

 

[danoyse]

Initially I think he believed it was time for all of it to go away. But Yoda made him realize that there will always be those like Rey who are strong with the Force, and while the Jedi Order as they knew it would be over, they will still leave something for the next generation to grow on.

It was just time for the Jedi to learn from their mistakes and evolve.

 

[titansupes]

That part I know, but does it discount what Yoda said? Because I could have sworn Yoda agreed with Luke.

Luke: So it is time... for the Jedi Order to end.
Yoda: Time it is... for you to look past a pile of old books.

 

[FunkMiller]

Initially I think he believed it was time for all of it to go away. But Yoda made him realize that there will always be those like Rey who are strong with the Force, and while the Jedi Order as they knew it would be over, they will still leave something for the next generation to grow on.

It was just time for the Jedi to learn from their mistakes and evolve.

That’s it. That whole conversation is about leaving behind dogma, rules, the attitudes of the past, and embracing the future. It’s about maintaining the spirituality of the force, but doing away with the old laws and teachings of the Jedi Order. I think Yoda sees that for the galaxy to progress, and for Rey to fulfil her full potential, she needs to be unshackled from the old ways of the force. Kylo says similar, but his desire is to crush the old ways, and rule in their stead. Yoda’s desire seems to be for Rey to have freedom from the age old Jedi/Sith dogma so she can be the best ‘new’ Jedi possible.

It’s all a rather fascinating way to deal with such an established religion and philosophy, and one I heartily approve of.

Luke: So it is time... for the Jedi Order to end.
Yoda: Time it is... for you to look past a pile of old books.

Yes! That’s Yoda essentially saying ‘do away with the bible and find the answers in yourself’.

 

[Marvolo]

When Yoda zapped the tree, Luke said "So it IS time for the Jedi to end?" I thought Yoda answered "Yes" or something to that effect. Did I mishear that?

He said "Yes it is time...for you to get past a pile of old books." He went on to say, "Yes wisdom they contained, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess." And he reprimanded Luke for always looking to the horizon but never at what was right in front of him.

Yoda was talking about the books and reprimanding Luke for obsessing over them while ignoring what was right in front of his nose: Rey ie the future of the Jedi. Yoda was basically telling Luke to pull his head out of his ass.

 

[TheVileOne]

There is no grey Jedi.

Also, what was Luke's third lesson?