Homecoming Spider-Man Homecoming (2017) General Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 108

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[The Joker]

Apparently the villain in GOTG 2 is really great.

 

[harryoscop]

The hate on Venom from certain fans is ridiculous. The ORIGINAL 616 had a weak motivation. Since then, subsequent versions of that story have improved & expanded on Eddie's hate for Peter. Movie Venom is not going to be a 1:1 adaption if the Sin eater story. And yes, Venom deserves his spot in Spidey's big 3. Name any villain besides Norman or Otto who terrorized Peter, threatened his Aunt May, scared MJ out of her mind & outmatched Peter to the point of him begging Ben Grimm to help him fight Brock? Peter was legit scared Eddie was gonna kill him because he was completely outmatched by Brock. The Jackal never did that

 

[Web-Head]

Apparently the villain in GOTG 2 is really great.

I have seen a few people saying the villain was solid in Guardians, so that's good to hear. Especially since Feige basically said he didn't expect the villain to be anything special.

Hopefully that continues since Vulture and Hela both seem like they'll be really good.

 

[Web-Head]

[YT]u5Be6Byz-3c[/YT]

 

[The Joker]

The hate on Venom from certain fans is ridiculous. The ORIGINAL 616 had a weak motivation. Since then, subsequent versions of that story have improved & expanded on Eddie's hate for Peter. Movie Venom is not going to be a 1:1 adaption if the Sin eater story. And yes, Venom deserves his spot in Spidey's big 3. Name any villain besides Norman or Otto who terrorized Peter, threatened his Aunt May, scared MJ out of her mind & outmatched Peter to the point of him begging Ben Grimm to help him fight Brock? Peter was legit scared Eddie was gonna kill him because he was completely outmatched by Brock. The Jackal never did that

You are the last person to be pointing fingers about ridiculous hate. You who got so absurd and annoying about it they put you on probation here for it.

Morlun terrorized and scared Peter witless, Morlun out matched and beat him to within an inch of his life and even ATE HIS EYEBALL. Peter had to go to Ezekiel for help in beating him. Does that mean Morlun should be rated along with Ock and Norman.

I have seen a few people saying the villain was solid in Guardians, so that's good to hear. Especially since Feige basically said he didn't expect the villain to be anything special.

Hopefully that continues since Vulture and Hela both seem like they'll be really good.

Yeah, apparently he is quite dark and intense. Which is surprising considering Guardians is one of the last MCU movies you'd expect the villain to be like that.

 

[Arachnerd]

Another good MCU villain besides Loki (and imo Zemo)?

Oh, this I gotta see.

 

[Web-Head]

Yeah, apparently he is quite dark and intense. Which is surprising considering Guardians is one of the last MCU movies you'd expect the villain to be like that.

Spoiler

Ah, so Taserface not Ayesha? Dark and intense seems right up Gunn's ally though

 

[The Joker]

Spoiler

Ah, so Taserface not Ayesha? Dark and intense seems right up Gunn's ally though

Spoiler

The villain's name is Ego.

 

[The Infernal]

When it comes to 616 Brock's motivation for hating Spider-man I actually don't mind the idea of it. Admittedly I haven't read the original, but I'm fine with the concept of misplaced anger/vengeance. That seems to be the common thread through the various iterations of Brock/Venom in other media. In a nutshell Brock has an inability to self reflect on his own mistakes and looks for any outside source to blame. Something I don't think is unique to him either.

 

[Web-Head]

Spoiler

The villain's name is Ego.

Spoiler

I was unaware he was a villain. I had a feeling he was, but was told otherwise a while back.

 

[The Joker]

Admittedly I haven't read the original, but I'm fine with the concept of misplaced anger/vengeance.

So am I, when it's done right. For example Harry's quest for vengeance on Peter is totally misplaced because Peter didn't actually kill his father. Harry was self destructive e.g. when he became a drug addict. But it works because Peter and Harry are connected, and Spidey was intimately involved in the death of Norman.

Spoiler

I was unaware he was a villain. I had a feeling he was, but was told otherwise a while back.

Spoiler

Sorry, I hope I didn't spoil that for you.

 

[Web-Head]

=The Joker;35150791

Spoiler

Sorry, I hope I didn't spoil that for you.

No worries, I kinda knew anyway.

 

[ironwez20]

The hate on Venom from certain fans is ridiculous. The ORIGINAL 616 had a weak motivation. Since then, subsequent versions of that story have improved & expanded on Eddie's hate for Peter. Movie Venom is not going to be a 1:1 adaption if the Sin eater story. And yes, Venom deserves his spot in Spidey's big 3. Name any villain besides Norman or Otto who terrorized Peter, threatened his Aunt May, scared MJ out of her mind & outmatched Peter to the point of him begging Ben Grimm to help him fight Brock? Peter was legit scared Eddie was gonna kill him because he was completely outmatched by Brock. The Jackal never did that

I agree. I understand why people hate him him but venom nearly drove Spider-Man away and made him run and fear for his life. Without the fantastic fours help he couldn't beat him. He's a haunting character and could be played real well. Plus I mean come on there fights are epic. Two web slingers going at it. I guess if you watched the 90s or grew up in the 90s where venom was everywhere you'd kinda like him a bit more? Idk. I notice that there is a group of spidey fans who mainly stick with just the 60s villains .

 

[The Joker]

Sam Raimi: "I had never read Venom in the comic books, since they came after my time. Because of that, I didn't have a natural inclination toward him. And when I read those comics, at [producer] Avi Arad's urging, I didn't understand where Venom's humanity was. I know that kids think he looks cool, and they think he's a good villain for Spider-Man. I actually didn't. What was it about Peter's own makeup that this villain represented some weaker or darker side to? Just looking like a dark version of him is not enough for me. The more I read [Venom stories], the less interested I became"

 

[spiderman2]

Apparently the villain in GOTG 2 is really great.

That is interesting to hear considering the villain in the first one is one of the worst villains in like movie history and a big part of why GOTG was so darn overateid.

 

[2kt09]

I guess if you watched the 90s or grew up in the 90s where venom was everywhere you'd kinda like him a bit more? Idk. I notice that there is a group of spidey fans who mainly stick with just the 60s villains .

Venom was overexposed in the Ultimate series.

Sam Raimi: "I had never read Venom in the comic books, since they came after my time. Because of that, I didn't have a natural inclination toward him. And when I read those comics, at [producer] Avi Arad's urging, I didn't understand where Venom's humanity was. I know that kids think he looks cool, and they think he's a good villain for Spider-Man. I actually didn't. What was it about Peter's own makeup that this villain represented some weaker or darker side to? Just looking like a dark version of him is not enough for me. The more I read [Venom stories], the less interested I became"

Well, that certainly explains this Spider-Man movie obsession of sympathetic villains. I think someone in here wanted Vulture to end up being the first genuinely detestable baddie for both Sony and Marvel Studios.

 

[CaptainWagner]

It's so hard not to look at those GOTG2 villain spoilers! I can't say I had high hopes for it, given how salty I still am about them butchering Ronan.

Sam Raimi: "I had never read Venom in the comic books, since they came after my time. Because of that, I didn't have a natural inclination toward him. And when I read those comics, at [producer] Avi Arad's urging, I didn't understand where Venom's humanity was. I know that kids think he looks cool, and they think he's a good villain for Spider-Man. I actually didn't. What was it about Peter's own makeup that this villain represented some weaker or darker side to? Just looking like a dark version of him is not enough for me. The more I read [Venom stories], the less interested I became"

Your insistence that Venom is worthless is ignoring several major points.

One, being marketable and "cool" DOES matter. Venom is easily one of the most recognized super villains out there and that does help, no matter how "shallow" it may be.

Secondly, you're ignoring just how much the larger story he is a part of adds to Spidey's story and the MCU as a whole. No matter your feelings towards Brock, surely you have to agree we're better off with a Spidey who can go through the Alien Suit saga and then finish up with an Agent Venom spinoff?

Third, you keep complaining about his motivations. Not every villain has to have a real, personal beef with the hero. The fact that Brock's vendetta is so pathetically wrong adds so much to his character.

Lastly, you keep harkening back to not being able to find a Venom story that's up to your standards, but ignore the countless examples of great stories told with previously "bad characters", not to mention any of the great ideas fans here have suggested.

 

[ironwez20]

Sam Raimi: "I had never read Venom in the comic books, since they came after my time. Because of that, I didn't have a natural inclination toward him. And when I read those comics, at [producer] Avi Arad's urging, I didn't understand where Venom's humanity was. I know that kids think he looks cool, and they think he's a good villain for Spider-Man. I actually didn't. What was it about Peter's own makeup that this villain represented some weaker or darker side to? Just looking like a dark version of him is not enough for me. The more I read [Venom stories], the less interested I became"

Raimi really throws me with this. I mean I get that he doesn't like the character but come this guy did evil dead and other horror movies. He could of made venom frightening. I think my favorite scenes in the comics as venom is when he's in the closet hung up like Spider-Man's black suit and then when Mary Jane arrives he sorta of reveals his form to her.
Also the part when he hugged aunt may and was about to stab her and Peter was holding his hand back with everything he had so he wouldn't .

Then how he was being all friendly with pretty much all of peters friends was a great touch. You can add crazy horror elements into the story. The 90s show did this well to. Peter couldn't open a book without seeing venom . I like that about him. He just wants Spider-Man to go insane then pick him off. But I don't think he could carry his own movie.

 

[The Joker]

Your insistence that Venom is worthless is ignoring several major points.

No, it's not.

One, being marketable and "cool" DOES matter. Venom is easily one of the most recognized super villains out there and that does help, no matter how "shallow" it may be.

No, it does not matter. Writing of the character is what matters. Not marketing factor, and certainly not the "cool" factor. For example, The Chameleon doesn't have any wow factor powers, he'll never dazzle us with an action scene along the lines of the SM-2 train fight or any of the MCU's best. But that doesn't exclude him as awesome villain potential on screen.

Secondly, you're ignoring just how much the larger story he is a part of adds to Spidey's story and the MCU as a whole. No matter your feelings towards Brock, surely you have to agree we're better off with a Spidey who can go through the Alien Suit saga and then finish up with an Agent Venom spinoff?

What large part does he add to Spidey's story? Seriously what has he brought to the table in Peter's life that other villains have not, and better?

What is your obsession with Agent Venom? It's FLASH THOMPSON wearing the symbiote. Were you champing the years when they palmed it off to The Scorpion, too?

Third, you keep complaining about his motivations. Not every villain has to have a real, personal beef with the hero. The fact that Brock's vendetta is so pathetically wrong adds so much to his character.

Two things;

1. I never said every villain has to have a personal beef with the hero. Have you seen me ragging on Keaton's Vulture because he doesn't seem to have a personal vendetta with Peter? No. Brock's Venom is built on a personal vendetta with Peter. Much like Harry's Goblin. The fact Brock's sucks is the issue I have with him. When the foundation for a villain is crap, then the whole character is. Like when you build something on a shaky foundation it doesn't stand up for long. Much like a building.

2. Brock's pathetic vendetta does not add to his character, it detracts from it by not being able to take it seriously at all.

Lastly, you keep harkening back to not being able to find a Venom story that's up to your standards, but ignore the countless examples of great stories told with previously "bad characters", not to mention any of the great ideas fans here have suggested.

What countless examples of great stories with bad characters? What great ideas that fans have suggested? Where have I missed these? List them.

Raimi really throws me with this. I mean I get that he doesn't like the character but come this guy did evil dead and other horror movies. He could of made venom frightening.

I'm sure he could have, too. This is why Raimi is a great director. He wants more from his villains than just an intimidation factor. He's not a style over substance man.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Sam Raimi: "I had never read Venom in the comic books, since they came after my time. Because of that, I didn't have a natural inclination toward him. And when I read those comics, at [producer] Avi Arad's urging, I didn't understand where Venom's humanity was. I know that kids think he looks cool, and they think he's a good villain for Spider-Man. I actually didn't. What was it about Peter's own makeup that this villain represented some weaker or darker side to? Just looking like a dark version of him is not enough for me. The more I read [Venom stories], the less interested I became"

I see Raimi's point, especially in regards to comic venom. His motivations in the original comic were incredibly stupid.

However, I do fault him for not looking at how other interpretations improved him. The 90s toon made him much more interesting, and SSM even more so (though, to be fair, I think SSM's interpretation came out after he filmed SM3).

But, point being, there is more than enough out there now to make Venom an interesting one off film villain. I personally would love to see Brock introduced in a similar fashoot to SSM and slowly watch his fall to darkness over a few films. The whole stalking and terrorizing Peter angle could make for a great, tense film. Arrow actually did a pretty good job of this with Slade in S2. They were pretty much copying what Venom had done in the comics and had Slade show up to Oliver's house and pleasantly chat with Ollie's mom. The whole time you're sitting there watching Ollie stew but you know he's completely outmatched against Slade, and it made for some great tension. I'd love to see that adapted properly.

So there's definitely potential for Brock to be a good film villain. In fact, I think he works best as a film villain because you would ideally only use him once.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

The hate on Venom from certain fans is ridiculous.

Irony. Far out.

terrorized Peter, threatened his Aunt May, scared MJ out of her mind & outmatched Peter to the point of him begging Ben Grimm to help him fight Brock? Peter was legit scared Eddie was gonna kill him because he was completely outmatched by Brock. The Jackal never did that

Has Venom ever acted out on any of these? Nope lol. Scared MJ once and that's it.

Raimi's Venom >>>>>>>> Comics Venom

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Well, that certainly explains this Spider-Man movie obsession of sympathetic villains. I think someone in here wanted Vulture to end up being the first genuinely detestable baddie for both Sony and Marvel Studios.

Venom would be the first. Eddie Brock was a horrible person, and the only one without redeeming qualities, although Gobby was a close second.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Spoiler

The villain's name is Ego.

God dammit. That's what I get for absentmindedly reading and not paying attention to what I was clicking on.