Spidey never actually defeated Ock once

[The Joker]

I see your point...but if every single TV series, comic, film etc showed Doc Ock as the same, stereotypical evil guy with four mechanical arms, he'd be pretty boring.

You claim he'd be boring??

And yet he has been portrayed as a true villain for over 40 years in the comics,and readers have not bored of him.

The Green Goblin is the same.Why were people not bored of him in SM-1???

Should we make The Joker a misguided soul in the Batman Begins sequal?? Should we have him turned good and save Gotham from his laughing gas or something,because people might be bored of the sterotypical crazy clown after 65 years???

Of course not.

You think having Octavius controlled by A.I. tentacles gave him layers?? If anything it stripped him of what makes him so special.

 

[Darth Wolverine]

I don't think you read the rest of my post. If you remember, I also said that whatever 'layers' they may add may be silly. And, yes, if every villain was portrayed a pure evil, then yes it would be boring, and stupid; pure evil doesn't let personality show through. With Joker and Goblin, they are so psychotic and messed up that their 'conditions' and relationships with their enemies make them interesting enough; but with most other foes, we need to know motives, personality, attitude etc. And, as I said before, this can be displayed in conflicting ways.
I don't think you realise that the Doc Ock you see in Spider-Man 2 is NOT the Doc Ock you read about in the comics; the one portrayed in the film is merely a differen interpretation of the same character. I'm not saying you should like it....I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect to see exactly the same Doc Ock in his every appearance.

 

[The Joker]

I don't think you read the rest of my post. If you remember, I also said that whatever 'layers' they may add may be silly.

Ok my bad.Sorry I misread what you said there.

And, yes, if every villain was portrayed a pure evil, then yes it would be boring, and stupid; pure evil doesn't let personality show through.

And you think Doctor Octopus has no personality??

-The man who was the first villain to defeat and humiliate Spider-Man
-the first villain to unmask Spider-Man
-who founded the Sinister Six
-who was the Master Planner
-who brain washed Spider-Man into joining him in crime
-who was involved in the death of Captain Stacy
-who tried to marry Aunt May for her inheritance of a nuclear facility so he could build atomic wepaons in it
-Who saved Spider-Man's life so he could be the one to kill him in a grand and glorious manner
-Who tried to force Spider-Man to unmask himself in Times Square,or else he's kill the palestinian ambassador

That's just a list of some of his nefarious deeds.Never mind the fact that Octavius sees himself as Spider-Man's superior.Both powerwise and intellectually.That he wants to use his power and genius to get the wealth and power he believes he deserves.

That in childhood his father verbally abused him for being weak,that he told him constantly that a man is measured by his STRENGTH and POWER. While his mother coddled him.She told him he was a genius,that others were just jealous of him and his talents.Those were the seeds of Ock sewn at an early age.

But best of all,Otto Octavius is considered the dark side of Peter Parker.Both were bullied as kids,both were science geeks,both had rough childhoods,both lost their fathers at a young age,both acquired their powers thru a scientific accident.
And that's the parallel.Where Peter used his powers with great responsibility and for good,Octavius used his for selfish,evil purposes.Showing no responsibility for what he was doing.

Doc Ock is not PURE evil.I don't think even Norman Osborn is.But these guys are not poster people for the Red Cross.They're not altar boys or saints.They're bad.Very,very bad.So bad they kill innocents without batting an eye.

With Joker and Goblin, they are so psychotic and messed up that their 'conditions' and relationships with their enemies make them interesting enough; but with most other foes, we need to know motives, personality, attitude etc.

I agree.

But you'd have to be illiterate not to know Ock's motives,personality and attitude.As I've explained above.

I don't think you realise that the Doc Ock you see in Spider-Man 2 is NOT the Doc Ock you read about in the comics; the one portrayed in the film is merely a differen interpretation of the same character.

Have you not been reading this thread??

I realise it all too well

I'm not saying you should like it....I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect to see exactly the same Doc Ock in his every appearance.

SM-2 is the ONLY dramatically different interpretation of Doc Ock I have ever seen.If there is another one then please point me to it.

I loved Molina as Ock.He had some great moments.But the character was written very unfaithfully.

 

[Darth Wolverine]

I didn't mean Ock was boring...he's my favourite Spidey villain! I meant that he is interesting because of the fact that he is not pure evil. He doesn't go round killing people for the heck of it, or blowing up cities. Thus, we see his motives, attitude, and most importantly: his personality. However, in the movie, his personality changed from greedy-scientist-with-a-grudge, to much-loved-family-man-taken-over-by-evil-robotic-arms.

The more I think of it, the more I tend to agree with you that it is a bit of a disappointment...but nevertheless, that's what we got. Ina ctuality, if you took away the two versions' powers, you'd be left with 2 totally different characters...which is why it's probably best to think of them as 2 totally separate villains. I never really thought of Ock as Peter's dark equivalent, but I suppose it's kinda true...and if that is true, then maybe Spidey would be able to relate to him a little more than we all thought. Perhaps not in the way as shown in the film, but it could be explored elsewhere...

 

[The Joker]

I didn't mean Ock was boring...he's my favourite Spidey villain!

Again sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying.It's just you gave the impression that you were saying Ock in the comics had little personality,so Raimi improved on that by having him controlled by the tentacles.

I meant that he is interesting because of the fact that he is not pure evil. He doesn't go round killing people for the heck of it, or blowing up cities. Thus, we see his motives, attitude, and most importantly: his personality.

Agreed.Ock does not kill for pleasure.He does it as a necessity to achieve his goals.Not that he has any inhibitions about murdering innocents.And he does enjoy it on occasion.

But he does not go out and kill simply for pleasure.

However, in the movie, his personality changed from greedy-scientist-with-a-grudge, to much-loved-family-man-taken-over-by-evil-robotic-arms.

I know

I never really thought of Ock as Peter's dark equivalent, but I suppose it's kinda true...and if that is true, then maybe Spidey would be able to relate to him a little more than we all thought. Perhaps not in the way as shown in the film, but it could be explored elsewhere...

You should visit the comics forum more dude.Most Spidey fans,and even Marvel writers believe that.And of course that Venom is the evil Spider-Man.

They could have explored that parallel between Peter and Octavius in the movie.But it,like so many other interesting possibilities lost out to the all about a girl stuff.

It's been a pleasure chatting to you dude.You're a gentleman

 

[Darth Wolverine]

It's been a pleasure chatting to you dude.You're a gentleman

Same to you!
I never knew debating could be so fun...especially with a fellow Spidey/Doc Ock fan!

 

[Infinity9999x]

He should have ousted Ock fairly easily, seeing as how he got to hit him in the face about 20FRIGGIN TIMES. But going by the logic in that movie, spidey couldn't knock out ock, even though he was strong enough to stop a train, and hold up a wall of a warehouse building.....anyone else see flawed logic there?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

It's got nothing to do with the action,despite what some might think.

Spidey relating to Ock,and making him see sense,is not the nature of the Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus relationship.Doctor Octopus should have no INFLUENCE on his actions.His actions should be his own doing.

If Raimi wanted a tragic scientist villain,who is not really evil and simply a victim of his own experiment,then he should have used the Lizard.

Curt Connors is a decent guy,happily married,and a mentor to Peter.And that's what Raimi made Otto Octavius in SM-2.

Ridiculous.

That scene with Otto,Peter and Rosie at the dinner table is a scene we should have been watching with Curt Connors and his wife.

Hhhhhey - that makes me think. We know the Lizard was in early drafts of Spidey 2. Do you suppose Doc Ock was given most of Connor's role?

I.e...

Spidey defeats Ock at the climax with the electricity pipes thing. Doc is uncouncious. The it's the Lizard who grabs Spidey by the neck and Peter convinces to 'be a good man'. And the the Lizard destroys the machine.

 

[James"007"Bond]

Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest.

During the bank/wall fight, Aunt May pretty much ended the fight and saved Spidey from him, and then Peter himself had to convince Ock he was A Good Man Really at the climax.

It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."

You sure? Because the last time I watched that painfull let down of a movie, I saw spidey hld up some cables that immobalized ock at least temporarily. Now that I think about it, they both defeated each other once....temporarily so it cancels out. Ock knocked out spidey on the train, handing him over to Harru, was ock's temporary win. So its all square.

 

[Murder]

This place is like Days of our Lives with all the drama.

 

[Red]

It's got nothing to do with the action,despite what some might think.

Spidey relating to Ock,and making him see sense,is not the nature of the Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus relationship.Doctor Octopus should have no INFLUENCE on his actions.His actions should be his own doing.

If Raimi wanted a tragic scientist villain,who is not really evil and simply a victim of his own experiment,then he should have used the Lizard.

Curt Connors is a decent guy,happily married,and a mentor to Peter.And that's what Raimi made Otto Octavius in SM-2.

Ridiculous.

That scene with Otto,Peter and Rosie at the dinner table is a scene we should have been watching with Curt Connors and his wife.

You know though if they use The Lizard at some point it will just end up a rehash of Ock.

 

[Joker!]

You know though if they use The Lizard at some point it will just end up a rehash of Ock.

Indeed.Assuming he does the Lizard faithfully that is

Good one Raimi

 

[Donald Thomas]

He should have ousted Ock fairly easily, seeing as how he got to hit him in the face about 20FRIGGIN TIMES. But going by the logic in that movie, spidey couldn't knock out ock, even though he was strong enough to stop a train, and hold up a wall of a warehouse building.....anyone else see flawed logic there?

ALoha,
Very good observation.In Amazing SPider-MAn #3-Spidey commments that its strange that an old fashioned sock to the jaw defeated his most dangerous opponent.
Spidey rules-Hollywood fools

 

[G man]

Hhhhhey - that makes me think. We know the Lizard was in early drafts of Spidey 2. Do you suppose Doc Ock was given most of Connor's role?

I.e...

Spidey defeats Ock at the climax with the electricity pipes thing. Doc is uncouncious. The it's the Lizard who grabs Spidey by the neck and Peter convinces to 'be a good man'. And the the Lizard destroys the machine.

You may actually be on to something there! Movie-Ock did seem to be written very Connors-like. Anyway, I agree with alot of what "Doc Ock" is saying about them not being at all faithul to the character. They had better not screw up the Lizard!

First post, don't mind me.

 

[Infinity9999x]

ALoha,
Very good observation.In Amazing SPider-MAn #3-Spidey commments that its strange that an old fashioned sock to the jaw defeated his most dangerous opponent.
Spidey rules-Hollywood fools

yes! And that's the way it should have been. Spidey shouldn't have been able to get to ock so easily, make it harder for him to get through his tentacles, and only allow him to get minor hits in because he has to doge the tentacles so much.

 

[Jon Hex]

yes! And that's the way it should have been. Spidey shouldn't have been able to get to ock so easily, make it harder for him to get through his tentacles, and only allow him to get minor hits in because he has to doge the tentacles so much.

I disagree. With spider sense and speed, Ock shouldn't have been as tough as he is in the comics. With only 4 arms and no Super powers? Nope.

 

[The Joker]

I disagree. With spider sense and speed, Ock shouldn't have been as tough as he is in the comics. With only 4 arms and no Super powers? Nope.

With just 4 arms??

How about we re-phrase that.With four titanium,and occasionally adamantium arms,each one can extend up to 24 feet in length,move at speeds of up to 70 m.p.h. and can swing subway trains like they're baseball bats.

Yeah he should not have been so tough......NOT!

If anyone watched 'Armed and Dangerous' from the 90's animated show,that depicted how it should have been between Spidey and Ock.Ock kept Spider-Man at arms length,if you'll pardon the pun,thru the entire episode.In the end Spidey had to use his brains to defeat Octavius.

Spidey got too close to Ock too often in SM-2.But still their fight scenes were spectacular nonetheless.

 

[Jon Hex]

With just 4 arms??

How about we re-phrase that.With four titanium,and occasionally adamantium arms,each one can extend up to 24 feet in length,move at speeds of up to 70 m.p.h. and can swing subway trains like they're baseball bats.

Yeah he should not have been so tough......NOT!

If anyone watched 'Armed and Dangerous' from the 90's animated show,that depicted how it should have been between Spidey and Ock.Ock kept Spider-Man at arms length,if you'll pardon the pun,thru the entire episode.In the end Spidey had to use his brains to defeat Octavius.

Spidey got too close to Ock too often in SM-2.But still their fight scenes were spectacular nonetheless.

I see you're quite the Doc ock fan. Not just in name.

Keeping Spidey at arm's length is reasonably but having him capture or trap Spidey with his tentacles as in a lot of their fights is what i have a problem with when you factor-in incredible speed, reflexes and spider sense.

 

[The Joker]

I see you're quite the Doc ock fan. Not just in name.

Keeping Spidey at arm's length is reasonably but having him capture or trap Spidey with his tentacles as in a lot of their fights is what i have a problem with when you factor-in incredible speed, reflexes and spider sense.

I think you missed what I said.Ock's arms can move just as fast as Spider-Man,and are strong enough to hold Spider-Man.Each arm can lift up to 4 tons.The arms can move as quickly as 70 m.p.h and are fast enough to deflect gun fire.

Heck he can even topple whole buildings with them:

You find a problem with them ensnaring Spider-Man during battle???

 

[Infinity9999x]

I disagree. With spider sense and speed, Ock shouldn't have been as tough as he is in the comics. With only 4 arms and no Super powers? Nope.

well Ock beat me to this one. But basically, yes Spidey is very fast, but he's not the flash. Ock's arms are just as fast as him, he should have never gotten so close to ock in the movie. Or had to resort to nailing him in the face 20 times before he got knocked out. But like Ock said, the fight secenes were still amazing to watch, that was just my little pet peeve. It bugged me.

 

[terry78]

I hate to get so neanderthal, but how can you call yourself a man and favor drama scenes over action?

I enjoy pathos in my heroes, but I don't want to sit there crying my eyes out either over what they're going through.

 

[El Payaso]

I hate to get so neanderthal, but how can you call yourself a man and favor drama scenes over action?

Artist.

 

[TheVileOne]

I hate to get so neanderthal, but how can you call yourself a man and favor drama scenes over action?

I enjoy pathos in my heroes, but I don't want to sit there crying my eyes out either over what they're going through.

If it makes me less of a man, then fine.

For me its not about favoring one over the other. Its about finding the characters compelling and engaging, and then the action scenes as well as a result. Action scenes don't mean **** to me if I don't care about the characters. The Spider-man movies did that for me and a lot of other people. Something the Hulk wasn't able to do.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I think you missed what I said.Ock's arms can move just as fast as Spider-Man,and are strong enough to hold Spider-Man.Each arm can lift up to 4 tons.The arms can move as quickly as 70 m.p.h and are fast enough to deflect gun fire.

Heck he can even topple whole buildings with them:

You find a problem with them ensnaring Spider-Man during battle???

That was an awesome fight sequence. Drawn by the guy who designed all the action in The Matrix movies.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

If this happened in the movies, you guys would just start a thread about how Peter never beats the Goblin in the movies and how at the end, The Goblin saves him

As I said in the original post, "Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest."

And please, don't take anything I or anyone else posts here personally, even if it is criticism of a movie.