Star Trek: General Discussion Part 2

[-Arya-]

I wouldn’t recommend the ‘79 film. It’s slower than hell and boring. Watch the TV show and the skip to Wrath of Khan. It embraces Trek’s bigger ideas while still managing to be fun and action-packed.

How many seasons should I watch?

 

[Deck Rickard]

How many seasons should I watch?

I mean, you probably don’t need to watch all of them unless you have a LOT of time. I only watched a handful of episodes before I saw the movies back in the day. But I would recommend a few key episodes in the first season: Where No Man Has Gone Before (originally was going to be the premiere), The Menagerie (which ties into the new Strange New Worlds show) and Space Seed (which is the lead-in to Wrath of Khan).

 

[Dark Raven]

And City on the edge of Forever which is widely regarded as the best episode of the original series.

 

[-Arya-]

Where No Man Has Gone Before was really good. Some parts reminded me of 2001 and Solaris, two of my favorite movies ever.

I’ll follow it up with the episodes you guys recommended then watch a few of movies.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Also, watch the one where Kirk fights a big rubber lizard man. That one is hilarious. That fight makes the cheapest Godzilla movie look amazing by comparison.

 

[Doctor Jones]

City on the Edge of Forever is a must watch. Some of the best television ever.

 

[-Arya-]

Well, I followed up with The Managerie and The Enemy Within. I now totally understand why the franchise has survived this long but I also understand why it didn’t gain the traction of Star Wars.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Well, I followed up with The Managerie and The Enemy Within. I now totally understand why the franchise has survived this long but I also understand why it didn’t gain the traction of Star Wars.

Yeah, it’s more of a niche thing and it’s tough (especially for Paramount at times) to get the balance right of exploring deep sci-fi themes and fun action sequences.

 

[Gold Samurai]

Also, watch the one where Kirk fights a big rubber lizard man. That one is hilarious. That fight makes the cheapest Godzilla movie look amazing by comparison.

They made amends years later

 

[sueb1863]

There's also "The Trouble with Tribbles" for a more lighthearted Star Trek story.

But yeah, City on the Edge of Forever is great. And it stars a very young Joan Collins!

 

[metaphysician]

Well, I followed up with The Managerie and The Enemy Within. I now totally understand why the franchise has survived this long but I also understand why it didn’t gain the traction of Star Wars.

I think the key to understanding Star Trek and how it works, is to look at the other contemporary "sci-fi/fantasy" shows of the time, which were mostly anthologies. That is essentially what Star Trek was, one step away from a true anthology: a show that could explore a new and innovative ( or not ) scenario each episode, but grounding that exploration in a common cast and style as a baseline. Its not "What if Flash Gordon were a TV show?", but rather "What if Twilight Zone were a procedural?"

 

[-Arya-]

Continuing on with my Trek journey I decided to just watch the first movie. Didn’t vibe with the story but I enjoyed the visuals and characters. It tried way too hard to replicate 2001 but without the grand scale or sense of mystery. Everything unfortunately was spelled out in expository dialogue. 6/10 overall

as for the show I quite liked Arena, Tomorrow is Yesterday and Errand of Mercy.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Continuing on with my Trek journey I decided to just watch the first movie. Didn’t vibe with the story but I enjoyed the visuals and characters. It tried way too hard to replicate 2001 but without the grand scale or sense of mystery. Everything unfortunately was spelled out in expository dialogue. 6/10 overall

as for the show I quite liked Arena, Tomorrow is Yesterday and Errand of Mercy.

Check out Wrath of Khan next. Much better film in pretty much every way. It’s also kind of a marvel in that they made it for a LOT less money than the first one and yet it looks better IMO. And Khan is one of the greatest villains of all time. He rivals Darth Vader and the Joker IMO.

 

[metaphysician]

As much as Into Darkness is a mess on a lot of levels, and as much as having Khan both played by a white dude *and* appear out of nowhere was a bad bad idea. . . look, I still think Cumberbatch's performance as Khan was the best part of the movie. Both because Cumberbatch is excellent at playing charismatic egomaniacs, but also because "What if Khan Noonien Singh woke up under different circumstances?" is a really compelling premise. And while I generally hate almost everything that has ever been done with Section 31, I was definitely up for "the Federation franchise of Cerberus forcibly recruited Khan, and then direly regretted it". *ahem*

 

[Deck Rickard]

As much as Into Darkness is a mess on a lot of levels, and as much as having Khan both played by a white dude *and* appear out of nowhere was a bad bad idea. . . look, I still think Cumberbatch's performance as Khan was the best part of the movie. Both because Cumberbatch is excellent at playing charismatic egomaniacs, but also because "What if Khan Noonien Singh woke up under different circumstances?" is a really compelling premise. And while I generally hate almost everything that has ever been done with Section 31, I was definitely up for "the Federation franchise of Cerberus forcibly recruited Khan, and then direly regretted it". *ahem*

Yeah, Cumberbatch is really good in the film. I just wish they had made him a different villain than Khan. Obviously waking him up at a different point in time and under different circumstances would change him somewhat, but he still felt like a different villain to me. They should have just made him a new character IMO.

 

[MadVillainy]

I actually thought Cumberbatch wasn't good in it. He had some cool moments but there was a lot of over acting.

Wish they would've gotten Edgar Ramirez or Benicio Del Toro like they originally planned

 

[Mysteryman]

I mean, you probably don’t need to watch all of them unless you have a LOT of time. I only watched a handful of episodes before I saw the movies back in the day. But I would recommend a few key episodes in the first season: Where No Man Has Gone Before (originally was going to be the premiere), The Menagerie (which ties into the new Strange New Worlds show) and Space Seed (which is the lead-in to Wrath of Khan).

I would add City On The Edge of Forever to that list, too.

 

[DarkKnight88]

Yeah, Cumberbatch is really good in the film. I just wish they had made him a different villain than Khan. Obviously waking him up at a different point in time and under different circumstances would change him somewhat, but he still felt like a different villain to me. They should have just made him a new character IMO.

It was pretty easy for them to do considering the alternate timeline element too. Since they were awakened earlier, they could’ve said Khan died and Cumberbatch’s John Harrison took over.

But they wanted the name I guess even if he had no resemblance to the OG character. People would’ve been definitely kinder to Into Darkness overall I think if they had done that (and also not done the Wrath of Khan fakeout ending lol).

 

[Deck Rickard]

It was pretty easy for them to do considering the alternate timeline element too. Since they were awakened earlier, they could’ve said Khan died and Cumberbatch’s John Harrison took over.

But they wanted the name I guess even if he had no resemblance to the OG character. People would’ve been definitely kinder to Into Darkness overall I think if they had done that (and also not done the Wrath of Khan fakeout ending lol).

Yeah exactly. The best summary I’ve heard for STID (I think it was someone on this board) was: Abrams simultaneously remade Wrath of Khan AND his previous Star Trek movie. It’s so true. Yet it wasn’t nearly as good as either one.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yeah exactly. The best summary I’ve heard for STID (I think it was someone on this board) was: Abrams simultaneously remade Wrath of Khan AND his previous Star Trek movie. It’s so true. Yet it wasn’t nearly as good as either one.

If Abrams had directed Star Trek Beyond, it could have just been a remake of Wrath of Khan, Star Trek into Darkness and Star Trek 09.

 

[Silvermoth]

I loved abrahms but going back to what we were talking about before, his dedication to secrecy sort of hurt the franchise a lot. Like, if they had confirmed Khan was in it it might have generated more hype but literally they were obsessed with stopping any and all leaks and I don’t think that helped. Obviously keep some secrets but don’t block the whole movie

 

[Jordacar]

Here's my brilliant theory: JJ and Lindeloff spent years building their brands on the whole "mystery box" style of storytelling and had really come to pride themselves on keeping audiences on their toes. When TREK'09 first hit and talk of a sequel started up, everyone was asking who could play Khan. Y'know, if they decided to go in that direction.

So when they finally got busy on their sequel and decided on this post-9/11 update of "Space Seed" and Wrath of Khan...I can't help wondering if they were a little bit ashamed at doing the exact thing that we were all expecting them to do, hence all of the secrecy and misdirection, since that was what they were used to.

 

[Sithborg]

Here's my brilliant theory: JJ and Lindeloff spent years building their brands on the whole "mystery box" style of storytelling and had really come to pride themselves on keeping audiences on their toes. When TREK'09 first hit and talk of a sequel started up, everyone was asking who could play Khan. Y'know, if they decided to go in that direction.

So when they finally got busy on their sequel and decided on this post-9/11 update of "Space Seed" and Wrath of Khan...I can't help wondering if they were a little bit ashamed at doing the exact thing that we were all expecting them to do, hence all of the secrecy and misdirection, since that was what they were used to.

Not sure why Dumb & Dumber (ie Kurtzman & Orci) are being let off. Seriously, Into Darkness has their hand writing all over it. I'm sure Lindelof probably added a bit of the post 9/11 allegory, too much of Into Darkness is easily those two.

As much as I like Abrams as a director, he is not a writer.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I still can't believe after that first movie, with the fresh start that it was, you have all these possibilities of where you can go, and they just do Khan.

 

[metaphysician]

Here's my brilliant theory: JJ and Lindeloff spent years building their brands on the whole "mystery box" style of storytelling and had really come to pride themselves on keeping audiences on their toes. When TREK'09 first hit and talk of a sequel started up, everyone was asking who could play Khan. Y'know, if they decided to go in that direction.

So when they finally got busy on their sequel and decided on this post-9/11 update of "Space Seed" and Wrath of Khan...I can't help wondering if they were a little bit ashamed at doing the exact thing that we were all expecting them to do, hence all of the secrecy and misdirection, since that was what they were used to.

I mean, its almost certainly at least *partially* right. Abrams kind of seems to have only two modes of operation: "Retro-Nostalgia" and "Mystery Box".

I still can't believe after that first movie, with the fresh start that it was, you have all these possibilities of where you can go, and they just do Khan.

Being fair, though, this bit might not have been Abrams, or only Abrams. I strongly suspect that the execs were a lot less interested in "new and fresh possibilities" than the fans might be, since that seems pretty consistent across *all* Star Trek since Voyager. Almost nobody wants to actually greenlight a "Next Next Generation", they want the surety of direct connections to existing stuff, remakes or reboots or prequels or interquels or distant continuations. Hell, even Strange New Worlds, probably the most exciting new Star Trek project since the '09 movie, is still a prequel in vaguely known territory; it just might return to some Boldly Going for a change.