Stephen King's "IT" remake has found a writer - Part 4

[Mad Ones]

Thank God for Hunter retrieving your post from the abyss. It was really important that we all had the chance to read it.

I thought it was interesting and I'm glad I read it.

 

[Kane52630]

Here's my original post, compliments of Hunter Rider:

Yes, teens are horny and I get the boys initially leering at her. That in itself is not a problem. Though it'd be nice if their relationship with her evolved to something beyond being an object of desire, which it never does seeing as the last scene with her is the boy kissing her. Sexuality is a very real aspect of everybody's life, particularly in a coming of age tale..which this sort of is. And that could of been a great aspect of the film if it were handled maturely by the writers. And yes, she does show moments of strength where she is capable of being more than a sexual object, but despite those moments, the characters still never treat her as anything more than a sexual object. And all of those moments of strength are completely undermined at the end of the film where she is reduced to just being another damsel in distress who needs saved by boys.

The problem is this:

Do you think the 15 year old girl could of been introduced without *skank* shaming?
Do you think the 15 year old girl could of been an outsider, like the boys, without *skank* shaming?
Do you think the basis of the 15 year old girl's character could not of been rumors of her sexuality?
Do you think the 15 year old girl could of had a troubled home life without being sexualized by her dad?
Do you think the the 15 year old girl could of helped the boys at the pharmacy without being the flirty sexual object of the pharmacist?
Do you think the 15 year old girl could of not been condemned by the boy's mother without being *skank* shamed?
Do you think the the 15 year old girl could not of been inexplicably saved by the boys without being sexualized beyond her consent?

This is just cheap, juvenile, and sexist writing rooted in male fantasy. If the only way you know how to write a girl being terrorized by awful people is by attacking her sexually, then that is some messed up misogynistic writing. The character does not exist without her being sexualized. How come none of this applies to the boys? How come they're not so strongly sexualized by anyone else in the movie? This was done because she is female and females largely can't exist in films without being sexual objects for the male gaze. This would be a problem for any female character, but it's particularly troubling due to her age. It's even more troubling that people will still have a problem with this post because this view of women has been so normalized in our society in no small part because of their perverse representation by men in the media.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Please remember in a society so engrained and influenced by the media it consumes, representation matters, and its poor representation of how women are characterized probably plays no small role in your current immature dismissal of the issue even when it is presented directly to you.

 

[Matt Mortem]

But it didn't. I'm a woman, and while I didn't love the whole rescue plot at the end, I thought overall she was a very strong character.

There was a huge difference between what her father did, and what the boys were doing at the lake. Her father saw a child he wanted to abuse and control. He was angry at any sign that she was growing up, and demanded that she remind him that he was still his little girl. It made her terrified of everything that comes with growing up (the way she was hiding the tampons when she came in the house). Cutting her hair was a rebellion so she wouldn't look like a little girl anymore.

The boys, they didn't see a little girl anymore. They saw a young woman...and as boys do at that age, they revered what they saw. Unlike her father, they approved and welcomed it. That's the complete opposite of her father. They were noticing things for the first time, and while no...they shouldn't leer at a young woman sunbathing...part of growing up does involve raging hormones, so they were just doing what boys would do at that age (and knew they shouldn't - notice how quickly they all looked away when she spotted them watching).

I didn't mind the kiss either. I felt at that point it was as much Ben's story as it was Bev's (and I also remember how head over heels Ben was for her in the book too), that I thought it was really his moment. He really was the romantic in the group, and I though that was pretty sweet. He wasn't taking advantage of her being incapacitated, he was trying to save her.

And Ben kissing her made even more sense when you remember he's a young boy with a crush who spends all his time in the library. Of course his mind would go to the "true loves kiss breaks the spell" kind of thing. He's a kid. It felt like a natural part of his character.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I didn't think she was sexualized for the audience either. There was a pretty audible "ewww" coming from the audience during the pharmacist scene both times I saw the movie, and it was meant to get that reaction. She wasn't trying to be sexy for the audience, she was exploiting the fact that she knew the pharmacist was a creep. And he was.

And I don't think the boys watching her sunbathing was sexualized for the audience. It was meant to be from the boys' perspective, and they were 13-year-old boys, they can't help it at that age, it's just what they do. The scene wasn't trying to show how "sexy" Bev was, it was showing the boys' reaction to seeing her sunbathing, and I thought it was pretty typical of their age, and actually kind of sweet (not that they should leer at another girl, but that they couldn't help themselves).

Both times I saw it, I heard a few women laugh at the scene when she's trying to figure out the tampon aisle, and trying not to let the other girls see her. I think it was a moment every teenage girl went through at some point or another.

I didn't love the whole bit where she needed rescuing at the end, but I thought she was overall a great character. My crowd cheered when she decked her father with the top of the toilet tank.

There's a good article about Beverly here that I think sums her up pretty well:

IT TELLS A STORY ABOUT THE VERY REAL FEARS OF WOMANHOOD

Yep, agree with all of this. I have been a 13 year old boy, you can't help but leer at that age. The way the scene played out was actually quite funny. So of course from the boys (I mean the ones in the movies, should have clarified that) she will be sexualised, she is a girl paying them attention, it's natural.

But yeah she had some great moments and the bits you felt uncomfortable you were supposed to. She does get the first major hit on Pennywise during the house sequence.

 

[Kane52630]

And Ben kissing her made even more sense when you remember he's a young boy with a crush who spends all his time in the library. Of course his mind would go to the "true loves kiss breaks the spell" kind of thing. He's a kid. It felt like a natural part of his character.

Also in Bev's room there was a book called "The Frog Prince."

 

[danoyse]

And Ben kissing her made even more sense when you remember he's a young boy with a crush who spends all his time in the library. Of course his mind would go to the "true loves kiss breaks the spell" kind of thing. He's a kid. It felt like a natural part of his character.

I was literally sitting in the theater thinking, "Oh, kiss her!"

It wasn't assault, it wasn't objectifying her. They were about to lose her forever, and he was sending a message that he loved her. That they all did. And it worked. It was the only thing that did.

 

[danoyse]

Yep, agree with all of this. I have been a 13 year old boy, you can't help but leer at that age. The way the scene played out was actually quite funny. So of course from the boys (I mean the ones in the movies, should have clarified that) she will be sexualised, she is a girl paying them attention, it's natural.

But yeah she had some great moments and the bits you felt uncomfortable you were supposed to. She does get the first major hit on Pennywise during the house sequence.

Exactly. If she had been sunbathing alone and the boys had been sneaking around trying to get a look at her, yeah, that would have been objectifying her and it would have been a problem. But in the scene they actually all just caught themselves in a moment, and it was kind of cute, and funny as an adult, because we all remember being that age.

Bev was the only one who didn't raise her hand to be a lookout at Neibolt Street. She was the one who stuck by Bill when the other kids wanted to run. And like you said, she got that first hit on Pennywise at the house. She was a tough kid, and strong character.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I was literally sitting in the theater thinking, "Oh, kiss her!"

It wasn't assault, it wasn't objectifying her. They were about to lose her forever, and he was sending a message that he loved her. That they all did. And it worked. It was the only thing that did.

He was fulfilling his sexual objectification of her without her consent while she was unconscious. I don't see anything romantic or charming about it. Even worse, this is the means by which she was "rescued" after being reduced to a cliche damsel in distress. That's just creepy to me, and not in the way that a horror movie is "supposed to be creepy".

 

[Matt Mortem]

Also in Bev's room there was a book called "The Frog Prince."

Ah yeah. Forgot about that. Good catch.

 

[Finarfiniel]

But it didn't. I'm a woman, and while I didn't love the whole rescue plot at the end, I thought overall she was a very strong character.

There was a huge difference between what her father did, and what the boys were doing at the lake. Her father saw a child he wanted to abuse and control. He was angry at any sign that she was growing up, and demanded that she remind him that he was still his little girl. It made her terrified of everything that comes with growing up (the way she was hiding the tampons when she came in the house). Cutting her hair was a rebellion so she wouldn't look like a little girl anymore.

The boys, they didn't see a little girl anymore. They saw a young woman...and as boys do at that age, they revered what they saw. Unlike her father, they approved and welcomed it. That's the complete opposite of her father. They were noticing things for the first time, and while no...they shouldn't leer at a young woman sunbathing...part of growing up does involve raging hormones, so they were just doing what boys would do at that age (and knew they shouldn't - notice how quickly they all looked away when she spotted them watching).

I didn't mind the kiss either. I felt at that point it was as much Ben's story as it was Bev's (and I also remember how head over heels Ben was for her in the book too), that I thought it was really his moment. He really was the romantic in the group, and I though that was pretty sweet. He wasn't taking advantage of her being incapacitated, he was trying to save her.

Also speaking as a woman, I had absolutely no issues with Bev's characterisation in this movie. She was easily my favourite character, I love that she was portrayed as being intelligent, resiliant and courageous beyond even the other Losers. I'd say more, but I think you've covered my feelings brilliantly already.

 

[Matt Mortem]

He was fulfilling his sexual objectification of her without her consent while she was unconscious. I don't see anything romantic or charming about it. Even worse, this is the means by which she was "rescued" after being reduced to a cliche damsel in distress. That's just creepy to me, and not in the way that a horror movie is "supposed to be creepy".

This is some SJW nonsense. It's gotta be exhausting getting triggered by everything.

 

[danoyse]

He was fulfilling his sexual objectification of her without her consent because she was unconscious.

Because she was about to die.

I don't see anything romantic or charming about it.

Oh well.

Even worse, this is the means by which she was "rescued" after being reduced to a cliche damsel in distress.

Like I said, I didn't love the 'needed to be rescued' bit, but she did still hold her own against Pennywise for as long as she could in the cistern. And again, Ben's decision to kiss her wasn't practice for his future career as a date rapist, it was because he loved her and was trying to reach her and save her.

That's just creepy to me, and not in the way that a horror movie is "supposed to be creepy".

OK.

 

[scarlet-witch]

Also in Bev's room there was a book called "The Frog Prince."

Wasn't that more of a call back to the play she and Bill were in as kids where they kissed moreso than kissing breaking spells?

I get annoyed about Bev being a damsel, then I remember what Bev ended up doing in the books and this is a better alternative.

 

[Finarfiniel]

He was fulfilling his sexual objectification of her without her consent while she was unconscious. I don't see anything romantic or charming about it. Even worse, this is the means by which she was "rescued" after being reduced to a cliche damsel in distress. That's just creepy to me, and not in the way that a horror movie is "supposed to be creepy".

I have trouble believing this isn't a parody post. One child giving another an innocent brush of the lips, something that wasn't even remotely sexual in nature is Ben 'fulfilling his sexual objectification of her'? I'm sorry, but the fact that you took that away from that scene says a lot more about you in my opinion than it does about this movie. Good lord.

 

[Matt Mortem]

I have trouble believing this isn't a parody post. One child giving another an innocent brush of the lips, something that wasn't even remotely sexual in nature is Ben 'fulfilling his sexual objectification of her'? I'm sorry, but the fact that you took that away from that scene says a lot more about you in my opinion than it does about this movie. Good lord.

Well said.

 

[The Joker]

I have trouble believing this isn't a parody post. One child giving another an innocent brush of the lips, something that wasn't even remotely sexual in nature is Ben 'fulfilling his sexual objectification of her'? I'm sorry, but the fact that you took that away from that scene says a lot more about you in my opinion than it does about this movie. Good lord.

I have to agree.

 

[Motown Marvel]

This is some SJW nonsense. It's gotta be exhausting getting triggered by everything.

If I'm an "SJW" for being "triggered" by the normalization of sexually objectifying women...what does that make you for being "triggered" by my taking issue with the normalization of sexually objectifying women?

Please, if you're gonna take issue with my opinions at least try something more original than the tired meaningless rhetoric your recycling. You might even try something crazy, like, I dunno, engaging in a discussion about it. Possibly even try injecting an original idea.

 

[danoyse]

Wasn't that more of a call back to the play she and Bill were in as kids where they kissed moreso than kissing breaking spells?

I get annoyed about Bev being a damsel, then I remember what Bev ended up doing in the books and this is a better alternative.

It was - Bill and Bev had done the school play together. And despite her supposed reputation, it was still the only kiss she'd ever had.

 

[danoyse]

If I'm an "SJW" for being "triggered" by the normalization of sexually objectifying women...what does that make you for being "triggered" by my taking issue with the normalization of sexually objectifying women?

Please, if you're gonna take issue with my opinions at least try something more original than the tired meaningless rhetoric your recycling. You might even try something crazy, like, I dunno, engaging in a discussion about it. Possibly even try injecting an original idea.

You might want to try the same.

 

[danoyse]

I have trouble believing this isn't a parody post. One child giving another an innocent brush of the lips, something that wasn't even remotely sexual in nature is Ben 'fulfilling his sexual objectification of her'? I'm sorry, but the fact that you took that away from that scene says a lot more about you in my opinion than it does about this movie. Good lord.

Exactly.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

If I'm an "SJW" for being "triggered" by the normalization of sexually objectifying women...what does that make you for being "triggered" by my taking issue with the normalization of sexually objectifying women?

Please, if you're gonna take issue with my opinions at least try something more original than the tired meaningless rhetoric your recycling. You might even try something crazy, like, I dunno, engaging in a discussion about it. Possibly even try injecting an original idea.

You're hardly an easy person to engage in discussion with, you twist every little thing to suit your argument, and exaggerate every issue to make it seem a thousand times worse than it is, you take offense at every given opportunity and go out of your way to interpret things in the worst way possible. You haven't been trying to have a discussion, you've been trying to start an argument by being rude to anyone who disagrees with you and actively antagonizing the mods when they showed up, nothing more.

 

[Matt Mortem]

If I'm an "SJW" for being "triggered" by the normalization of sexually objectifying women...what does that make you for being "triggered" by my taking issue with the normalization of sexually objectifying women?

Please, if you're gonna take issue with my opinions at least try something more original than the tired meaningless rhetoric your recycling. You might even try something crazy, like, I dunno, engaging in a discussion about it. Possibly even try injecting an original idea.

Already did that. Here you go:

I think Bev was portrayed very well and very realistically from the boys POV. Of course the boys are going to stare. They're all gonna have their schoolyard crushes. It's natural. Also, if you actually watch and pay attention to the film you'd see that Bev is the strongest of them. She doesn't fear Pennywise. She's the first to hurt him. She strikes back at her abusive father. I don't see what's so one dimensional and terrible about that portrayal. Sure, you could make the argument that her getting taken by Pennywise damsels her, but it was the filmmakers trying to use Bev as the person that brings the Losers together without the extremely taboo scene they omitted from the books.

And also:

And Ben kissing her made even more sense when you remember he's a young boy with a crush who spends all his time in the library. Of course his mind would go to the "true loves kiss breaks the spell" kind of thing. He's a kid. It felt like a natural part of his character.

The incoherent rage you're approaching this discussion with has lead to you ignoring the well made points and posts by many in this forum. Vomitting up nonsense about sexual objectification without ever responding to the counter points presented to you makes you look very childish. You've plugged your ears, stomped your feet and bellowed the same argument over and over.

 

[The Shape]

I have trouble believing this isn't a parody post. One child giving another an innocent brush of the lips, something that wasn't even remotely sexual in nature is Ben 'fulfilling his sexual objectification of her'? I'm sorry, but the fact that you took that away from that scene says a lot more about you in my opinion than it does about this movie. Good lord.

Nail on head. Like what in the actual ****?

 

[Flint Marko]

But it didn't. I'm a woman, and while I didn't love the whole rescue plot at the end, I thought overall she was a very strong character.

There was a huge difference between what her father did, and what the boys were doing at the lake. Her father saw a child he wanted to abuse and control. He was angry at any sign that she was growing up, and demanded that she remind him that he was still his little girl. It made her terrified of everything that comes with growing up (the way she was hiding the tampons when she came in the house). Cutting her hair was a rebellion so she wouldn't look like a little girl anymore.

The boys, they didn't see a little girl anymore. They saw a young woman...and as boys do at that age, they revered what they saw. Unlike her father, they approved and welcomed it. That's the complete opposite of her father. They were noticing things for the first time, and while no...they shouldn't leer at a young woman sunbathing...part of growing up does involve raging hormones, so they were just doing what boys would do at that age (and knew they shouldn't - notice how quickly they all looked away when she spotted them watching).

I didn't mind the kiss either. I felt at that point it was as much Ben's story as it was Bev's (and I also remember how head over heels Ben was for her in the book too), that I thought it was really his moment. He really was the romantic in the group, and I though that was pretty sweet. He wasn't taking advantage of her being incapacitated, he was trying to save her.

Hats off to you.

Not all boys gawk at girls at that age.