Supergirl Supergirl Season 2 Ep22 "Nevertheless, She Persisted" - SEASON FINALE; MAJOR SPOILERS

[Sithborg]

It says a lot when a woman is portrayed as strong and equal to men, that you leap to them being portrayed as "superior".

This is beginning to really piss me off.

 

[Kelly]

There is no superior. Women and men both have strengths and weaknesses and that balances us out as a species to make us equals. Third wave feminism, like this shows says, HA!, see men, we are better than you. It's childish. I was raised by only women and my mother was the strongest person I have ever met in my life. But that doesn't make my father useless. He wasn't a great parent but his strengths in other aspects of his life are inspiring to me. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

It didn't do that though....at least within this particular story line.

Yes, Cat is over the top feminist. Unapologetic, etc... but as far as the story line of this particular episode, they didn't do that... I didn't see Superman coming off weak AT ALL, not even in the slightest. He came off as strong, caring, with a load of empathy for Kara. It was really nice to watch.

I think you got it totally wrong on this count, and unfortunately ended up missing some fantastic aspects of Superman that we don't always get to see.

 

[MAN O STEEL]

It says a lot when a woman is portrayed as strong and equal to men, that you leap to them being portrayed as "superior".

This is beginning to really piss me off.

She wasn't portrayed as equal to, they explicitly say she is better than, in every area. I'm asking for equality, meaning equal to, not greater than. Both have strengths and weaknesses as characters, been like that since forever in the comics. I don't care if it pisses you off, not my problem. You have no cause for complaint.

 

[vantheman77]

I guess I've just seen Supergirl declared to be more powerful than Superman in several media/continuities now, so it's already been an accepted fact in my head for a while. When you add to that the fact that she has two years worth of professional training that he doesn't on this show, it makes perfect sense that the fight turned out the way it did to me. The being who's A.) already more powerful and B.) has better training is the one more likely to win, even when you leave out the fact that it's her show.

To me what made Superman look great was the way he handled it, like he was just so proud of her, because that's who Superman is to me: a beacon of humility and grace. Which is why she was still the one looking up to him the whole ep, getting advice, asking him to teach her some moves...because what makes someone a hero or the leader isn't who can beat whom in a fight - it's being the person people look to for strength.

Think about what would happen if Superman did lose Lois to save the world. We've seen this in Superman: The Movie, Kingdom Come, and Injustice.

 

[Kelly]

Then I guess they have lost you as a viewer.

Ok.....

 

[Sithborg]

He said that. He also said that J'onn was the strongest being on the planet.

This Superman is humble, when it comes to his friends.

 

[LezDoThis]

Basically, Supergirl has been said to be more powerful than Superman in different continuities in the comics, and each one offered a different explanation. In one, it was because her father put solar lamps in her pod, so when she was lost in space all those years she was getting extreme yellow sun exposure that strengthened her cells. In another, it was that her body converts the yellow sun radiation at a faster rate because she grew up on Krypton so her body evolved under Krypton's sun/harsher gravity/atmosphere, or something like that. In an animated version, it was just that her cells were denser. Either way, it's a common trope from comics and other media that she is more powerful than him, for whatever pseudo-science-y explanation they decide to go with that week, lol.

USUALLY, however, he is able to best her in a fight because he has more experience, and in those continuities, she is still pretty new to Earth and her powers. That is not necessarily the case in this show, because while he has been Superman for over 12 years and she's only been Supergirl for 2, she has gotten daily professional training for those two years - specifically to fight other trained Kryptonians, I might add - that he was never interested in because it would mean he'd have to work for the DEO. So most of his time being Superman was spent doing the usual feats of strength/brains and straight brawling on the rare occasion he had a foe that matched him in power. Though he did apparently have an adventure on Warworld where he learned some moves.

So while they should be rather evenly matched, it is certainly conceivable that between being the already more powerful one and having had more focused training, she could be able to best him. That said, I agree with you the knockout punch was poorly executed and should not have been able to take him out. That whole bit in the water was poorly executed, imo, as I think it was supposed to be showing the gravity of each of their punches and why they were exhausting themselves, but it didn't really translate. They should have done a series of super-speed punches instead of going slo-mo, then ending on a proper upper-cut (instead of a back-handed one), imo.

But for the record, to answer another one of your questions, YES, the strength of superheroes DOES tend to fluctuate from different movies/comics/etc. depending on who's writing it, and whose story it is. So it really is barely worth asking, lol.

Thanks so much for taking the time! This was like exactly what I was looking for.

 

[flickchick85]

Thanks so much for taking the time! This was like exactly what I was looking for.

No problem.

 

[JackMercy]

Can I say little I noticed or cared that Jimmy barely showed up in this finale?

That's a sign to the showrunners that this show doesn't need him...and probably never did.

 

[BH/HHH]

Basically, Supergirl has been said to be more powerful than Superman in different continuities in the comics, and each one offered a different explanation.

I don't know about others but the only time I was aware of it was in the Superman Batman Jeph Loeb run and even there when the story continued in Supergirl Power it turned out she and the others. (Mostly Batman who assumed she was) who thought she was more powerful than Superman were wrong. Superman tells her he's been absorbing yellow sun for all that time and that she isn't more powerful. I always refer back to JLU Superman's worked of cardboard speech. I feel he holds back more because he's more experienced and less reckless. Infact when James said to Kara in Supergirl S1 that she was faster than her cousin, I took that explanation into my head for that. I thought he's probably just less reckless and with his experiejce he wouldn't fly too fast when carrying a passenger. Of gorse the latter us just my theorising but the Loeb run nixed the idea of her been more powerful, it was only ever assumed in that run too by Batman.

 

[flickchick85]

^In that story, she still appears more powerful, because as you said, he's got those subconscious mental blocks and she doesn't, which would also apply here. Also, I don't know when it was, but I do know Batman also stated at some point that she does indeed absorb solar radiation at a faster rate, due to having grown up on Krypton's environment instead of Earth. And of course, they didn't nix the idea in the animated version at all - it stuck. And in the New 52 she was also said to be more powerful by the Worldkillers who'd been observing them for a while. And hell, I know you debated this, the fact is on Smallville she developed all her powers pretty much immediately after she landed while Clark didn't, so for whatever the reason at the time, she appeared to be more powerful than him there as well. The point is, it's a recurring idea/question in canon, and not something these writers just made up or is any less valid or more "outrageous" than any other interpretation. Your interpretation's just as valid too, of course.

 

[BH/HHH]

^In that story, she still appears more powerful, because as you said, he's got those subconscious mental blocks and she doesn't, which would also apply here. Also, I don't know when it was, but I do know Batman also stated at some point that she does indeed absorb solar radiation at a faster rate, due to having grown up on Krypton's environment instead of Earth. And of course, they didn't nix the idea in the animated version at all - it stuck. And in the New 52 she was also said to be more powerful by the Worldkillers who'd been observing them for a while. And hell, I know you debated this, the fact is on Smallville she developed all her powers pretty much immediately after she landed while Clark didn't, so for whatever the reason at the time, she appeared to be more powerful than him there as well. The point is, it's a recurring idea/question in canon, and not something these writers just made up or is any less valid or more "outrageous" than any other interpretation. Your interpretation's just as valid too, of course.

I get what you're saying there's a precedent there

 

[flickchick85]

Yep, that's all I'm saying.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I remember when I thought I was going to be the really upset one over this whole thing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

She wasn't portrayed as equal to, they explicitly say she is better than, in every area. I'm asking for equality, meaning equal to, not greater than. Both have strengths and weaknesses as characters, been like that since forever in the comics. I don't care if it pisses you off, not my problem. You have no cause for complaint.

If Superman had won the fight, would you still be complaining about him being shown as "superior"?

 

[Paradox1]

I didn't like the finale but thank the gods Mon-El,is gone. I'm fine with Superman losing to Supergirl. However the way he acted afterward rubs me the wrong way. Him being gracious in the loss is fine but where is his ego? I imagine superheroes have the mindset of a world class athlete. There are no athletes at the top of their game who take losing well. In fact anyone with any ounce of competive spirit doesn't take losses well. So I find his lack of any emotion,really makes him come off to me like a neutered dog. This Superman doesn't have any fire in him whatsoever.

 

[BH/HHH]

If Superman had won the fight, would you still be complaining about him being shown as "superior"?

See I don't think even he should have won it. That would have also sucked just as badly because then it makes Supergirl look weak. It either needed to be ambiguous about the effects of the silver K or it had to be stopped somehow either by another character, a double knockout or a moment where she gets through to him (which would have been way more powerful).

 

[Superchan]

Basically, Supergirl has been said to be more powerful than Superman in different continuities in the comics, and each one offered a different explanation. In one, it was because her father put solar lamps in her pod, so when she was lost in space all those years she was getting extreme yellow sun exposure that strengthened her cells. In another, it was that her body converts the yellow sun radiation at a faster rate because she grew up on Krypton so her body evolved under Krypton's sun/harsher gravity/atmosphere, or something like that. In an animated version, it was just that her cells were denser. Either way, it's a common trope from comics and other media that she is more powerful than him, for whatever pseudo-science-y explanation they decide to go with that week, lol.

Have to disagree there, the only version of supergirl that was acknowledged to be more powerful than superman was the new 52 one and even then she couldn't best him in a fight due to his experience.
In Jeph Loeb's run Batman speculated that she was more powerful but when kara turned evil and started beating the JLA and wreck shop Superman let loose and put her on her butt after letting her know that he could beat her anytime.
In STAS her cellular density attributed to kryptonite having less of an effect on her and not her being more powerful because in Legacy Superman nearly killed her with one blow.

USUALLY, however, he is able to best her in a fight because he has more experience, and in those continuities, she is still pretty new to Earth and her powers. That is not necessarily the case in this show, because while he has been Superman for over 12 years and she's only been Supergirl for 2, she has gotten daily professional training for those two years - specifically to fight other trained Kryptonians, I might add - that he was never interested in because it would mean he'd have to work for the DEO. So most of his time being Superman was spent doing the usual feats of strength/brains and straight brawling on the rare occasion he had a foe that matched him in power. Though he did apparently have an adventure on Warworld where he learned some moves.

That's pure speculation on your part, unless we see a superman prequel show in the near future (hopefully not) I doubt we can gather any credible info on how experienced he is fighting wise.
Like you said we know that he's learned certain moves on warworld where one could speculate that he fought the likes of Draaga (who beat the crap out of Kara) and Mongul. We know for sure that he fought Zod and Maxima previously so one can't jump to the conclusion that he rarely fought beings within his power level.

So while they should be rather evenly matched

No they shoudn't be at all. Experience aside, Clark has 20 year of sunlight on Kara, so by the internal logic of the superman mythology more sunlight = more power and 2 decades of sunlight equals ALOT more power.

It is certainly conceivable that between being the already more powerful one and having had more focused training, she could be able to best him. That said, I agree with you the knockout punch was poorly executed and should not have been able to take him out. That whole bit in the water was poorly executed, imo, as I think it was supposed to be showing the gravity of each of their punches and why they were exhausting themselves, but it didn't really translate. They should have done a series of super-speed punches instead of going slo-mo, then ending on a proper upper-cut (instead of a back-handed one), imo.

Again pure speculation, the DEO isn't the only place where one could get training, in the comics superman learned a certain form of kryptonian martial art in the fortress of solitude during the whole messy dominus storyline.
Besides how many times did we actually see kara train in hand to hand combat? twice maybe?
Again I have no problem with supergirl beating him in a fight simply because it's her show and that's a good enough of a reason for me personally, because otherwise nothing she has done within her vast year and a half of experience would warrant her becoming numero uno.

 

[Kelly]

I didn't like the finale but thank the gods Mon-El,is gone. I'm fine with Superman losing to Supergirl. However the way he acted afterward rubs me the wrong way. Him being gracious in the loss is fine but where is his ego? I imagine superheroes have the mindset of a world class athlete. There are no athletes at the top of their game who take losing well. In fact anyone with any ounce of competive spirit doesn't take losses well. So I find his lack of any emotion,really makes him come off to me like a neutered dog. This Superman doesn't have any fire in him whatsoever.

Well, he is back for next season......sorry.

As for the rest of what you wrote. I watched the last episode again last night, after reading all of this anguish from some of the fans, his humbleness and empathy were quite refreshing...

 

[SSAV]

I didn't like the finale but thank the gods Mon-El,is gone. I'm fine with Superman losing to Supergirl. However the way he acted afterward rubs me the wrong way. Him being gracious in the loss is fine but where is his ego? I imagine superheroes have the mindset of a world class athlete. There are no athletes at the top of their game who take losing well. In fact anyone with any ounce of competive spirit doesn't take losses well. So I find his lack of any emotion,really makes him come off to me like a neutered dog. This Superman doesn't have any fire in him whatsoever.

What about sportsman spirit? Although, I think the analogy doesn't work because athletes compete for themselves; while heroes (not the Greek ones, but the Superhero folks) jump into action and fight to protect others. Why would he be sad that Kara won here, when that protected humanity?

Besides, isn't it great character strength and self-confidence that Superman doesn't judge his self-worth by means of the outcome of a fight? And isn't afraid to acknowledge strength in others and even boost others' self-confidence even at the expense of seeming less stronger.

Besides, him thinking Kara is stronger and being admiring of her just could mean that he isn't too full of himself. Which honestly is a great character trait in anyone, and especially in a hero.

 

[Dr.]

Overall, I was kinda disappointed with season 2. (To the thread question “tell ‘em what you want” for S3, I would have said “suck a little less.” ) So against that yardstick, I thought the finale was a noticeable improvement. Now, I didn’t analyze why I thought so; it was just my impression that this episode was better. So it’s been interesting to read stuff by folks who have done the “serious analysis” - especially as it relates to the use and (alleged) misuse of Superman.

Clearly, Hoechlin-as-Supes charmed viewers in the two-part premier. Thus, there was every reason for a return - and the finale provided a nice symmetry. But as it turned out, “Nevertheless…” may have been the one episode where Supes’ appearance was especially unnecessary and problematic to the narrative. I.e., instead of a convoluted pretext as to why Kara (not Kal-El) should be the hero to challenge Rhea, just excise Superman entirely.

 

[Syncos]

No they shoudn't be at all. Experience aside, Clark has 20 year of sunlight on Kara, so by the internal logic of the superman mythology more sunlight = more power and 2 decades of sunlight equals ALOT more power.

This is assuming they don't have a "Max Charge".

Solar energy charges their batteries. All batteries have a max amount of energy they can hold. This is even more evidenced in context of this series where Kara has used her "Solar Flare" ability multiple times, and been charged back up to "full strength" by the DEO's Solar energy machine-thing.

 

[flickchick85]

Have to disagree there, the only version of supergirl that was acknowledged to be more powerful than superman was the new 52 one and even then she couldn't best him in a fight due to his experience.
In Jeph Loeb's run Batman speculated that she was more powerful but when kara turned evil and started beating the JLA and wreck shop Superman let loose and put her on her butt after letting her know that he could beat her anytime.
In STAS her cellular density attributed to kryptonite having less of an effect on her and not her being more powerful because in Legacy Superman nearly killed her with one blow.





That's pure speculation on your part, unless we see a superman prequel show in the near future (hopefully not) I doubt we can gather any credible info on how experienced he is fighting wise.
Like you said we know that he's learned certain moves on warworld where one could speculate that he fought the likes of Draaga (who beat the crap out of Kara) and Mongul. We know for sure that he fought Zod and Maxima previously so one can't jump to the conclusion that he rarely fought beings within his power level.



No they shoudn't be at all. Experience aside, Clark has 20 year of sunlight on Kara, so by the internal logic of the superman mythology more sunlight = more power and 2 decades of sunlight equals ALOT more power.



Again pure speculation, the DEO isn't the only place where one could get training, in the comics superman learned a certain form of kryptonian martial art in the fortress of solitude during the whole messy dominus storyline.
Besides how many times did we actually see kara train in hand to hand combat? twice maybe?
Again I have no problem with supergirl beating him in a fight simply because it's her show and that's a good enough of a reason for me personally, because otherwise nothing she has done within her vast year and a half of experience would warrant her becoming numero uno.

I'm not going to address all the comics stuff as I have already addressed that in other posts, and frankly, I find debating the nitty gritty explanations for "my hero would beat your hero" to be a bunch of hooey that just suits the writers' needs at the time, whatever they are. For example, you can just as easily argue that he should be stronger because he's been under the yellow sun longer, just as I can easily argue he's blown out his powers several times, so that "extra charge" could be gone. AND I could go with the argument that Kara's body evolved under Krypton's red sun and harsher environment and therefore her cells have a more extreme reaction to the yellow sun and absorb the solar radiation at a faster rate (another argument that's been made in the comics at some point). And at the end of the day, both arguments are a bunch of fake science BS that don't mean a damn thing. I made my point: The argument has been made in multiple iterations that she has the potential to be more powerful, and this show's writers are perfectly within their rights to run with that. You are welcome to disagree but that's the last I'll say on that topic.

But I will address your comments on the show itself and all my "pure speculation": Yes, my interpretation of what we've seen on the show is MY interpretation, but it's based on the evidence presented: They straight-up said in S1 when they were training Kara that Superman refused a similar arrangement - therefore, it's not a far leap to say he hasn't had much by way of proper training, since we've seen no evidence ON THE SHOW that he has. My speculation is no more off-base than yours that Superman has all this training and experience, when they've really only told us of about 6 villains he's faced, three of which were not big physical threats at all in the hand-to-hand combat sense, and two of which were handily defeated by Kara.

And yes, I've assumed Kara continued the training sessions because that's what the show implied was happening. They said in S1 that J'onn/Hank intended to give Kara the same treatment he gave Alex, and Alex said he had her training there every day until she was better than him. And we saw later that in fact, those training sessions hadn't actually ended for J'onn and Alex, and that they had kept them up to this day. So yes, based on the dialogue, I concluded that Kara was getting the same treatment, because they told us she was. It also just so happened that they lost the Kryptonite for the training rooms in the very same episode that Mon-El entered the picture, and even so late as episode 14 of this season, Kara said she and Mon-El are due at the DEO as part of their morning routine, and when they arrived, Mon-El says he knows it's gonna be a rough sparring session today. Which yes, certainly implied to me, that this has remained a regular thing for Kara since S1.

You are welcome to interpret those things differently, but my speculation is hardly baseless speculation and is actually based on what's been presented in the show.

 

[Thome216]

It didn't do that though....at least within this particular story line.

Yes, Cat is over the top feminist. Unapologetic, etc... but as far as the story line of this particular episode, they didn't do that... I didn't see Superman coming off weak AT ALL, not even in the slightest. He came off as strong, caring, with a load of empathy for Kara. It was really nice to watch.

I think you got it totally wrong on this count, and unfortunately ended up missing some fantastic aspects of Superman that we don't always get to see.

Totally agree. I didn't see Superman weak at all in this! Yes, he lost a fight. He's lost fights before. Woopdie-do. It looked like if Supergirl had taken another hit she would have gone down, and did just afterward! And passed out twice according to Alex!

That there tells me that they are pretty evenly matched. And consider, Superman did not say she was stronger. He said he was at full strength. That implies that Kara's top strength is pretty much equal to his.

It's not the end of the world and it's not the end of Superman. He certainly didn't go around bemoaning that he lost to a girl, he did a stretch or two, resettled the cape and then started wailing away on Daxamites.

And I feel that concentrating so much on this part of the episode is just ignoring all the other great parts in it. Such as Supes and J'onn's 'brother' moment. That was cool!

But, oh well...

 

[flickchick85]

Superman being so gracious about the outcome of the fight and so proud of Kara - I'm sorry, but that's a sign of strength and confidence, not weakness.