Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 52

[Mandon Knight]

Only if they film entirely on a closed stage. They didn't hide Talia in TDKR and every fan knew what was coming a year before the release.

That ruined so much of TDKR for me, the Talia reveal, ok, it would have been 'obvious' watching the film on release but going in before hand knowing, it just ruined so much for me.

 

[The Guard]

It doesn’t undermine what he did at all. He’s as much a hero and great character as ever. It just undermines the audience’s belief that a death will stay permanent. Next time they see WW lose someone close to her or even just be at the the threat of doing so, they aren’t going to trust it fully and that moment will be robbed of its impact. Even rewatching WW takes away the impact of his death if we know he comes back. It makes creating the illusion of stakes much harder when you created them well first time round, delivered on that, but now want to go back on it.

Which, let's face it, they should know about this genre by now, shouldn't they? Part of the appeal of this genre IS the supernatural, and part of that is that death isn't always permanent. It's built into the genre at this point. I think it's pretty obvious he didn't just miraculously survive and stay young all those years. Something weird is going on. Now, should films do this all the time? No, but it's a legitimate story device to play with. You can build on that; Diane probably thought she'd never see Steve again. She may well lose him again. There are all kinds of possibilities that make it worth exploring.

Unless every single person who dies in a DCEU/WW movie comes back to life (which is unlikely; by the time WW rolls around there have been what, six or seven films and we'll likely have seen two resurrections, of different natures, though I suppose there's a chance they pull the "Didn't you get crushed by a rock" gag in SHAZAM), I would think the moments like that would still have impact. But I also don't think Patty's going to lean on the sacrificial death moving forward too much. She's done that story.

In fiction, deaths and sacrifices don't just have impact because they happen, but because of their execution, the use of tension in the stories they're in, and the reactions other characters have to the death, and the growth they experience as a result of the loss of their loved one.

I don't think Trevor's death has impact because he dies as a story point. I think his death has impact because of the execution of his character, and the execution of the story point. And that's not going to go away, the well made film its in just because he shows up later in some capacity.

They're not trying to hide that he comes back. They want this to be a major selling point of the film. And on some level, they'd be foolish not to advertise that the great chemistry between Gadot and Pine will be seen again.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm still not hyped for Aquaman, which is wrong on so many levels.

I’m looking forward to the movie itself, because Wan can be a very good director with the right material.

I am NOT looking forward to its reception with the general audience though. This movie may well be dragged down by the stench of the movies that preceded it. I will hate to see a good movie fail at the box office because of its association with BvS and Justice League.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I’m looking forward to the movie itself, because Wan can be a very good director with the right material.

I am NOT looking forward to its reception with the general audience though. This movie may well be dragged down by the stench of the movies that preceded it. I will hate to see a good movie fail at the box office because of its association with BvS and Justice League.

This is a very real concern. See X-Men: First Class, for example.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I’m looking forward to the movie itself, because Wan can be a very good director with the right material.

I am NOT looking forward to its reception with the general audience though. This movie may well be dragged down by the stench of the movies that preceded it. I will hate to see a good movie fail at the box office because of its association with BvS and Justice League.

I want to see it cause it has potential of at least being good entertainment, I just feel bummed about it.

 

[MadVillainy]

My guess is tomfoolery.

Hullabaloo if you will

 

[2kt09]

Well, I'm just mostly looking at how they've handled the Big Three in their respective stories.

Seemed like Superman was hated but then it seems like he was beloved. He was supposed to be a first-contact story but we learn that aliens and all these super powered people were around way before that.

Batman was supposed to be like an urban legend but not at the same time. And then he's some crazy dude trying to kill Superman and now he wants to revive him. Dick is mostly likely dead but then we might being getting a Nightwing film anyway.

Wonder Woman left Man's World after the horrors of WWI but then she kinda didn't by staying in the shadows or whatever. Her boyfriend died but now he's back.

And who knows what else the other DC films will tell us about the history of their universe (based on whatever the writers and directors feel like doing)?

A couple of those can't be errors if they haven't even happened.
Supe's got a monument dedicated to him, saved countless people and beat the indomitable force 3x. The hatred is projected from specific characters. The whole point of the other aliens & other superpowered beings is that they were well-hidden or haven't been an issue in so long to practically be myths.

Because Bat's not a people-person and mostly criminals have gotten the closest glimpse of him. redemption story. Even Skwad somehow gets that transition introduced in the previous flick.

"century of horrors", she kills "things from other worlds" in that timeframe
rather than doing what Superman, Batman, or even the Flash do

 

[Lencho01]

A couple of those can't be errors if they haven't even happened.
Supe's got a monument dedicated to him, saved countless people and beat the indomitable force 3x. The hatred is projected from specific characters. The whole point of the other aliens & other superpowered beings is that they were well-hidden or haven't been an issue in so long to practically be myths.

Because Bat's not a people-person and mostly criminals have gotten the closest glimpse of him. redemption story. Even Skwad somehow gets that transition introduced in the previous flick.

"century of horrors", she kills "things from other worlds" in that timeframe
rather than doing what Superman, Batman, or even the Flash do

Well, much of it goes back to Snyder and whatever it was he wanted to do and was trying to achieve. You can see the seeds of those ideas in his films and whatever he says on Vero to his followers. Then, we can see even within the WW and JL films, they're trying to step away from that with a loose continuity or weak explanations.

It might not exactly be as loose as X-Men franchise, but it certainly ain't like something that seems as planned out as the MCU. They even made it clear they don't call whatever it is they're doing "The DCEU."

I wouldn't be surprised if they're not even going to "build towards" another JL film for a while and mostly stick with solo films. Maybe some other superheroes showing up in other films here and there. Just making films that appeal to as many people as possible, make profit, and go.

 

[2kt09]

Well, much of it goes back to Snyder and whatever it was he wanted to do and was trying to achieve. You can see the seeds of those ideas in his films and whatever he says on Vero to his followers. Then, we can see even within the WW and JL films, they're trying to step away from that with a loose continuity or weak explanations.

It might not exactly be as loose as X-Men franchise, but it certainly ain't like something that seems as planned out as the MCU. They even made it clear they don't call whatever it is they're doing "The DCEU."

I wouldn't be surprised if they're not even going to "build towards" another JL film for a while and mostly stick with solo films. Maybe some other superheroes showing up in other films here and there. Just making films that appeal to as many people as possible, make profit, and go.

Differentiate the trinity and parallel them to Superman from what I can tell. Heck, even having the Skwad as being a sanctioned substitute for Superman ties with that. I was thinking about that line of Bruce's of how he won't fail him in death...that's exactly what happens in JL for him to need to resurrect him.

Bugged the heck out of me the moment I realized half of MCU's phase one took place in the span of a week. Definitely prefer the much more sprawling universe intro on the DC end from the movies thus far even with the just as abysmal "season finale". Still, on average, X-Men is still my go-to because it reminds me most of my fav animated show.

Going away from Superman, including the Donner inspirations, is how I figure they'd expand moving forward.

 

[Lencho01]

Differentiate the trinity and parallel them to Superman from what I can tell. Heck, even having the Skwad as being a sanctioned substitute for Superman ties with that. I was thinking about that line of Bruce's of how he won't fail him in death...that's exactly what happens in JL for him to need to resurrect him.

Bugged the heck out of me the moment I realized half of MCU's phase one took place in the span of a week. Definitely prefer the much more sprawling universe intro on the DC end from the movies thus far even with the just as abysmal "season finale". Still, on average, X-Men is still my go-to because it reminds me most of my fav animated show.

Going away from Superman, including the Donner inspirations, is how I figure they'd expand moving forward.

Yeah, I don't see WB rushing to making another Superman. I mean, Man of Steel only happened because they were rushing to make sure they didn't lose the rights. Seems they see some value in the character, but not enough to want to really make a film about it. And I think Snyder films hurt this version enough when it comes to public appeal. Luckily, they have other characters they can center films around.

I've said before that WB was kinda pulling an Iron Man 2 and forcing too many connections rather than taking a more episodic approach with sprinkled connections here and there. I think Marvel realized the connections needed to feel more natural than forced after IM2. The timeline of events didn't bother me much for Phase 1 since I guess Fury knew things would start picking up soon enough. I don't know how accurate this timeline is, but it's cool to see.

So, yeah more like episodic animated TV series... Looks like that's what they're going to be doing. At least that's the impression I've gotten from what's been shown so far with WW, WW84, Aquaman, and Shazam!

I thought Shazam could possibly take over from Superman in terms of modern film popularity, but I feel less so about that. Time will tell how that works out.

 

[DACrowe]

Yeah, I took that one as him being a part of the team or something like that. It can be explained. Most of these things can be explained by the timeline changing. A casting change isn't a continuity issue at all. The no new mutants in 20 years is an issue, but a real minor one since there was just the one scene at the end of DOFP.

But it's a little more complicated if you include the Deadpool movies.

 

[DACrowe]

This is a very real concern. See X-Men: First Class, for example.

That's actually a really apt comparison. A movie I only had faith in because of the director and leads, but no one wanted after TLS and XOW. If not for the quality of the actual film, it could have been an outright box office disaster.

 

[honestbharani]

Differentiate the trinity and parallel them to Superman from what I can tell. Heck, even having the Skwad as being a sanctioned substitute for Superman ties with that. I was thinking about that line of Bruce's of how he won't fail him in death...that's exactly what happens in JL for him to need to resurrect him.

Bugged the heck out of me the moment I realized half of MCU's phase one took place in the span of a week. Definitely prefer the much more sprawling universe intro on the DC end from the movies thus far even with the just as abysmal "season finale". Still, on average, X-Men is still my go-to because it reminds me most of my fav animated show.

Going away from Superman, including the Donner inspirations, is how I figure they'd expand moving forward.

But that still did a much better job in establishing a wider universe with diverse characters. I just don't think anything has been established yet with the DCEU, outside of Wonder Woman and they are still setting up the past, not the present.

 

[2kt09]

Yeah, I don't see WB rushing to making another Superman. I mean, Man of Steel only happened because they were rushing to make sure they didn't lose the rights. Seems they see some value in the character, but not enough to want to really make a film about it. And I think Snyder films hurt this version enough when it comes to public appeal. Luckily, they have other characters they can center films around.

I've said before that WB was kinda pulling an Iron Man 2 and forcing too many connections rather than taking a more episodic approach with sprinkled connections here and there. I think Marvel realized the connections needed to feel more natural than forced after IM2. The timeline of events didn't bother me much for Phase 1 since I guess Fury knew things would start picking up soon enough. I don't know how accurate this timeline is, but it's cool to see.

So, yeah more like episodic animated TV series... Looks like that's what they're going to be doing. At least that's the impression I've gotten from what's been shown so far with WW, WW84, Aquaman, and Shazam!

I thought Shazam could possibly take over from Superman in terms of modern film popularity, but I feel less so about that. Time will tell how that works out.

They're certainly better off growing out of Supes because they've covered more ground regarding him than I ever thought possible.

For a cinematic universe, I too have said before that I'm not big on the episodic approach. I'd rather see a more continuous story because sprinkled in connections isn't going to do much for me looking to see characters and story grow. I have also made the connection to IM2, difference is I prefer their "IM2" because it's more thorough and actually eventful.

But the animated series I stick around with have a serialized enough quality to them whether things develop in the foreground or background. This means the few Marvel shows right before Ultimate S-M and its universe took over, which is closer to the MCU than I would like. Phase 3 has definitely gotten better about it.

 

[Flint Marko]

They're certainly better off growing out of Supes because they've covered more ground regarding him than I ever thought possible.

 

[Boy Scout]

They haven’t done **** with Superman.

 

[2kt09]

I just don't think anything has been established yet with the DCEU, outside of Wonder Woman and they are still setting up the past, not the present.

Willfull ignorance as much I get the other Leaguers haven't gotten their stories. Instead of something like TiH they established that sanctioned Superman substitute.

 

[Flint Marko]

Re: Comcast vs. Disney:

It is entirely in Disney’s interest to let Fox make movies like Death on the Nile and The Greatest Showman. Bringing Fox’s Marvel properties (X-Men, Deadpool, Fantastic Four) would give the MCU more toys while Fox Searchlight makes Disney into an Oscar player. Playing the optimism card, Disney would still make Disney movies like Black Panther and Coco for families, and Fox would still release more adult-skewing biggies like The Martian and year-end Oscar contenders like The Post and Jackie. Disney/Fox would get to own every Christmas with a Star Wars sequel and an Avatar movie in alternating years.

That doesn’t mean I like the idea, but movies like Shape of Water and The Revenant existing in the Disney empire would make them less risky (since it’s as much about market share as individual per-movie profitability). The fear that a sale of Fox would lead to fewer movies like War for the Planet of the Apes or Brooklyn would only intensify if Comcast were the successful suitor. Without arguing that either media powerhouse is less evil, a lot of what Fox and Fox Searchlight does right now would directly overlap with what Universal and Focus Features offer.

Simply put, there is a lot less of a use for Fox movies in Comcast. Universal already makes big movies, like Jurassic World and Fate of the Furious, and they make small ones like Blockers and Get Out with regularity. While Fox’s X-Men properties would give Universal a superhero franchise if they so desire one, the upscale flicks (The Revenant comes to mind) might be in peril. Universal doesn’t distribute super-duper expensive flicks outside of the FF and JW franchises. More importantly, I’m not sure a single studio would need both Girl on the Train and Gone Girl.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...be-worse-than-a-fox-disney-deal/#19fdc6657023

 

[DrCosmic]

Willfull ignorance as much I get the other Leaguers haven't gotten their stories. Instead of something like TiH they established that sanctioned Superman substitute.

And this is more than you ever thought possible?


Because it's pretty one-line and one-note in terms of expanding Superman's mythos, to me.

 

[MadVillainy]

Re: Comcast vs. Disney:



https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...be-worse-than-a-fox-disney-deal/#19fdc6657023

I'll have to read the whole article, but I don't understand some of the bolded. Disney has no need for Fox movies either going by metrics the Forbes article is presenting. Disney has Marvel and Star Wars, Pixar, Disney Animation, Disney Live Action Remakes, some of which are even bigger than Fast and Furious and Jurassic Park franchises. And maybe Comcast wants to get into producing bigger blockbusters that FOX acquisition will help them with

 

[2kt09]

And this is more than you ever thought possible?


Because it's pretty one-line and one-note in terms of expanding Superman's mythos, to me.

My expectation for cinematic Superman has been the same ol' simplistic episodic stories he's gotten within that 40 year old franchise. I still can't believe the X-Men team were that timid on Superman.

In the DCEU, we got some Earth One, some Birthright, a flip on TDKR where as someone else noted is more like The Superman Returns by the basic nature of how BvS was framed, Death of Superman wherein Zod gets to come back as Doomsday, and his rebirth which could've been so much more yet still pits Superman as being much more central than the New 52 origin that movie was based on.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'll have to read the whole article, but I don't understand some of the bolded. Disney has no need for Fox movies either going by metrics the Forbes article is presenting. Disney has Marvel and Star Wars, Pixar, Disney Animation, Disney Live Action Remakes, some of which are even bigger than Fast and Furious and Jurassic Park franchises. And maybe Comcast wants to get into producing bigger blockbusters that FOX acquisition will help them with

The article goes fairly in-depth, but he's positing that under Comcast we'd likely have a reduced number of smaller/independent features. A lot of what Fox/Fox Searchlight produces directly overlaps with what Universal and Focus Features already offer. It'd be a redundancy, and not a particularly profitable one, and they'd likely consolidate or reduce the output of Focus and/or Searchlight to focus on the bigger IP's they'd be buying.

Disney, on the other hand, already has bigger IP's on lock but nothing similar to Searchlight/Focus and would be less incentivized to meddle:

Fox’s “big movies for adults” (Logan, Murder on the Orient Express, Gone Girl, etc.) and their Fox Searchlight flicks (Shape of Water, Brooklyn, Birdman, etc.) would complement the Mouse House and help create what amounts to a one-stop-shopping theatrical studio. Disney/Fox may rule the world in a very monopoly-ish way, but they wouldn’t be incentivized not to make Fox movies.

 

[MadVillainy]

Does Disney release a lot of smaller films? Smaller "mature" films?

Fox Searchlight has been one of my concerns with this merger for a while. Disney owns Touchstone which isn't very active but that could be a benefit they see. Fox acqu2could help them make smaller films. But those smaller mature films don't really fit the long standing Disney brand and they're all about brand. Then again Pirates of the Caribbean didn't fit their brand at a certain point of time

 

[Flint Marko]

Does Disney release a lot of smaller films? Smaller "mature" films?

They don't, and that's his point.

Comcast already does so in his eyes it's more likely that Comcast will pump the breaks on Focus and/or Searchlight since they'll essentially own multiple smaller studios that are never going to reap a huge profit compared to big-budget IP. Out of the two, Disney is less likely to meddle with what Searchlight already has going on because it will fill a gap that the house of mouse isn't currently filling.

Again, this is all speculation at this point, but Mendelson is a credible source. I've never bought the idea that Disney is just going to put a stop to the smaller productions that Fox has going and just stripmine the studio for big IP assets, but he's provided a reasonable argument why Comcast might do just that.

 

[MadVillainy]

Yeah that's why I said it's not really their brand to do so and Disney doesn't change their brand often. They just started releasing pg13 films under their Disney name until like 15 years ago, which isn't a relatively long tkme

But As I said they could be open to adding a new subsidiary that allows them to do that. I'm just skeptical of that. They're already so successful without that market I don't see why they'll add it to their fold. Maybe they want that Best Picture Oscar. They have all the power to just start making those type of films. But thats like the point I brought up that maybe Comcast wants to allow for more big franchises and they would still allow for Fox Searchlight etc to run un aposed

I can see either happening and again I want reiterate for everyone I have no preference who gets it