Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

[Sithborg]

Venom has become a fine character ever since Remender took over. Even when they switched back to Brock, they have done some great work. The symbiote talking to Eddie is a development from rather recently in the comics that I am glad to see in the movie. Hell, in the comics, the symbiote is a better person than Eddie now, which is a kind of fun dynamic.

 

[Infinity9999x]

His fans believe he's a layered character, a position I can understand when I read his stories, I can't look past how dumb he is in his origin and how dumb he is in the lethal protector department.

One of my favorite moments to mock Venom is how in the Jury storyline a flashback is shown of Venom trying to calm a little girl frightened of the aggressive monster look, and he puts his face close to her without changing the features of long pointy fangs for teeth and long slimy tongue reaching out of his mouth, and I think he placed his clawed hands on her shoulders, and is then unaware that this sight he's sporting is frightening.

I really hate what Erik Larsen did to the design.

His comic origin truly was incredibly stupid. The 90s toon created most of what we now associate as classic Venom/symbiote characteristics. And SSM made what is currently still my favorite iteration of an interesting and layered Brock/Venom.

And there's nothing wrong with that. TAS made Mr. Freeze a compelling tragic villain, wheras before he was literally nothing more than a joke villain.

What I will give the character outside a great design (and that should be acknowledged. Comics are, after all, a visual medium), is really bringing the fear and sense of powerlessness of a looming stalker. The sequence of Brock showing up at random places in Peter's life was a very effective, and terrifying psychological warfare tactic. This was why I always pushed back against those who claimed Venom couldn't be an effective movie villain. As a one off, he is quite effective. But as a layered character who needs to appear in multiple stories, he needed major retooling.

And this is why I'm actually not completely opposed to the idea of doing a Venom origin separated from Spider-man. Because Venom's comic origin was awful to begin with. I'm all for a good creative team coming in and doing something better (it's hard to do worse). I just have no faith in the creative team at Sony.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Praying to God and asking him to kill Peter Parker is still one of the dumbest parts of Spider-Man 3.

In the comics, Eddie stopped at the church and prayed to god, to ask him for forgiveness, for contemplating suicide. He was raised a devout Catholic and suicide is a mortal sin. It was a genuine human moment.

Not some twerp asking the big man in the sky, to take another life.

 

[Lily Adler]

Raimi isn't dark enough for that.

Spoiler

Yep not dark at all.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Raimi isn't dark enough for that.

Spoiler

Yep not dark at all.

To be fair though, all of Raimi’s darkness has had an element of major camp to it. It’s not like any of his horror films have been The Conjuring or The Exorcist.

 

[jmc]

How the hell is Venom tracking that well?

 

[Infinity9999x]

How the hell is Venom tracking that well?

Tracking hasn’t been all the accurate. JL and Solo were both tracking much higher than they actually hit.

But it’s possible Venom May have a surpassing opening weekend. Hardy is a draw and the character has a built in popularity. Still, I would be surprised if it opened over 55mil, but stranger things have happened.

 

[Flint Marko]

It doesn't look good to me but Suicide Squad didn't look that good to me either and it still made a boatload. Squad had much better marketing in it's favor though - WB has historically great marketing and Sony has historically atrocious marketing, but Hardy and the Venom character are going to be big enough draws to at least make it open huge.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

How the hell is Venom tracking that well?

It's not tracking that well. Honestly, that would be low for a movie with a legit budget. But again, this movie was always going to have at least a decent opening. A lot of people just want to see the character. If it sucks, the sequel will see the effect.

 

[Sithborg]

How the hell is Venom tracking that well?

I mean, Sony did drop the ball at the start with that terrible teaser. But, so far, the marketing has been above average for them. I know, I see a lot of criticisms of the CGI, but Venom does look good. Better than I thought possible. And it has caught peoples' interest. Just... stay away from that section of tumblr...

 

[Infinity9999x]

It's not tracking that well. Honestly, that would be low for a movie with a legit budget. But again, this movie was always going to have at least a decent opening. A lot of people just want to see the character. If it sucks, the sequel will see the effect.

If it only manages a decent opening and then falls hard due to having no legs, the chances of it getting a sequel will probably be doubtful. Sony needs hits, they're struggling as a movie company.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If it only manages a decent opening and then falls hard due to having no legs, the chances of it getting a sequel will probably be doubtful. Sony needs hits, they're struggling as a movie company.

Which is why I see the opposite happening. They need hits, so this opening well enough to sustain it will mean a sequel, no matter the legs imo.

 

[Flint Marko]

That's exactly what's going to happen. It's going to have a respectable opening and Sony will immediately announce a sequel.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Which is why I see the opposite happening. They need hits, so this opening well enough to sustain it will mean a sequel, no matter the legs imo.

Maybe. It really depends on how big the opening is. If it only makes around 45 mil opening and then drops like a stone...that sequel happening gets slimmer and slimmer.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Maybe. It really depends on how big the opening is. If it only makes around 45 mil opening and then drops like a stone...that sequel happening gets slimmer and slimmer.

I agree there. I just don't see it opening that low.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

His comic origin truly was incredibly stupid. The 90s toon created most of what we now associate as classic Venom/symbiote characteristics. And SSM made what is currently still my favorite iteration of an interesting and layered Brock/Venom.

And there's nothing wrong with that. TAS made Mr. Freeze a compelling tragic villain, wheras before he was literally nothing more than a joke villain.

What I will give the character outside a great design (and that should be acknowledged. Comics are, after all, a visual medium), is really bringing the fear and sense of powerlessness of a looming stalker. The sequence of Brock showing up at random places in Peter's life was a very effective, and terrifying psychological warfare tactic. This was why I always pushed back against those who claimed Venom couldn't be an effective movie villain. As a one off, he is quite effective. But as a layered character who needs to appear in multiple stories, he needed major retooling.

And this is why I'm actually not completely opposed to the idea of doing a Venom origin separated from Spider-man. Because Venom's comic origin was awful to begin with. I'm all for a good creative team coming in and doing something better (it's hard to do worse). I just have no faith in the creative team at Sony.

I still don't get why he's loved so much in the comics, he had improvements in some adaptions, mostly a doofus in comics.

 

[StarLord]

LOL, well, now we can't even say that much about the Joker. I can't believe people are actually praising that **** makeup job.

Yeah, I mean, how DARE anyone have a different opinion to you!

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah, I mean, how DARE anyone have a different opinion to you!

Look, if you like it, fine. I’m sorry if I sounded like my opinions are facts. I guess I just keep seeing all these posts in the Joker thread of people praising every aspect of the film because it’s not going to be like a Marvel movie (I’m not saying you have done this; I’m talking about others). And that just makes all of it feel so fake.

Like, I can accept that the MCU isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. But they’ve also pulled something off that no one (at least in terms of comic book films) has down before, and they deserve a lot of credit for that. But when I see all these snide comments about how “this Joker movie won’t be some generic Marvel movie that has no personality of its own,” I roll my eyes. And that annoyance has been compounded by the fact that I feel like this makeup design (which will probably be the final look, since it almost always goes that way) looks like a weak attempt to be edgy. But that’s just me.

Again, I’m sorry if I’m coming off like a jerk here. I’ll probably refrain from posting again in the Joker thread because I don’t want to crap on anyone’s parade.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Look, if you like it, fine. I’m sorry if I sounded like my opinions are facts. I guess I just keep seeing all these posts in the Joker thread of people praising every aspect of the film because it’s not going to be like a Marvel movie (I’m not saying you have done this; I’m talking about others). And that just makes all of it feel so fake.

Like, I can accept that the MCU isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. But they’ve also pulled something off that no one (at least in terms of comic book films) has down before, and they deserve a lot of credit for that. But when I see all these snide comments about how “this Joker movie won’t be some generic Marvel movie that has no personality of its own,” I roll my eyes. And that annoyance has been compounded by the fact that I feel like this makeup design (which will probably be the final look, since it almost always goes that way) looks like a weak attempt to be edgy. But that’s just me.

Again, I’m sorry if I’m coming off like a jerk here. I’ll probably refrain from posting again in the Joker thread because I don’t want to crap on anyone’s parade.

It is pretty amusing that some people have to complain about the MCU and that things have to be a shared universe these days, despite that the vast, vast majority of films still have nothing to do with shared universes.

I don't get how one can have so much trouble with if something isn't perfectly to their tastes that they have to complain about one small aspect in the big world of films. After all it's if you want shared universes that you are strapped for options, the rest is overflowing with alternatives. I guess some just don't like when something they don't like is popular.

 

[OutOfBoose]

@Deck Rickard. MCU deserves it's success, but after n-th film it became a visit to pizzeria for me. Tasty, you had good time, but it leaves nothing in your mind or heart when you exit the place. You can dislike the look of the make up, the idea of the film - it's fine by me. But when people say it looks and feels different from the regular stuff that dominates the screens, and Marvel dominates the screens when it comes to CBMs, and more of that - some studios try to ape the style, because they want a slice of that money pie - there's nothing fake about that. They appreciate something fresh and different from the routine. Doesn't mean the film is already great, best thing since Ledger or whatever. But so far it looks interesting and for some fans it's an asylum.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

That's exactly what's going to happen. It's going to have a respectable opening and Sony will immediately announce a sequel.

This is how I see it playing out as well. But the reaction better be good or nobody is going to want to see the sequel and it will bomb. It has happened to numerous "successful" films over the years where the first film makes enough money to get a sequel made, but is so bad that nobody actually wants to see said sequel.

 

[Infinity9999x]

@Deck Rickard. MCU deserves it's success, but after n-th film it became a visit to pizzeria for me. Tasty, you had good time, but it leaves nothing in your mind or heart when you exit the place. You can dislike the look of the make up, the idea of the film - it's fine by me. But when people say it looks and feels different from the regular stuff that dominates the screens, and Marvel dominates the screens when it comes to CBMs, and more of that - some studios try to ape the style, because they want a slice of that money pie - there's nothing fake about that. They appreciate something fresh and different from the routine. Doesn't mean the film is already great, best thing since Ledger or whatever. But so far it looks interesting and for some fans it's an asylum.

Eh, this criticism I agreed with pre 2014. Winter Soldier and Guardians showed that the MCU was capable of varying its flavors. Since then it’s been very effective at giving us films that vary quite a bit in tone. Infinity War, Black Panther, and Ragnorok were all very different tonally. Homecoming was it’s own flavor as well.

The MCU was suffering from the sameness feel for a bit, but now it’s quite clearly exploring aspects of different genres and tones.

Now, do we have a hard R, super dark MCU film? No. That’s what the Netflix corner seems to handle. But I think it’s disingenuous to claim the MCU films are all of the same flavor.

That said, I completely understand why some would be excited about the Joker solo. It looks to be very interesting and creative. An outside the box look at the character.

 

[FunkMiller]

@Deck Rickard. MCU deserves it's success, but after n-th film it became a visit to pizzeria for me. Tasty, you had good time, but it leaves nothing in your mind or heart when you exit the place. You can dislike the look of the make up, the idea of the film - it's fine by me. But when people say it looks and feels different from the regular stuff that dominates the screens, and Marvel dominates the screens when it comes to CBMs, and more of that - some studios try to ape the style, because they want a slice of that money pie - there's nothing fake about that. They appreciate something fresh and different from the routine. Doesn't mean the film is already great, best thing since Ledger or whatever. But so far it looks interesting and for some fans it's an asylum.

The second I started viewing the MCU as a giant TV series, rather than as movies, it all clicked into place for me. Some episodes are better than others, but the overall season long arc has been great. Even if individual episodes aren't all that great, the sum of the whole is better than its parts.

 

[OutOfBoose]

It's not only general sameness. It's mostly vanilla. It's very basic. I long for something more aesthetically interesting and pleasing. And it's lasting for 10 years already and I'm so ready to move on.

 

[Kane52630]

RE: The Joker

There's always room for another interpretation of a character.... right John Robin Blake?