Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 56

[Kuwolski]

Trailer views aren't really a good measure. And still Apple TV is still new to hosting/making tv/movies, if I'm not wrong. Its owned by tech giant, but like Amazon and YouTube Red... it just doesn't have a library as large as Disney's library. Also, Disney are also still releasing their products in theaters/tv networks which are also part of their costumer reach.

My point is Disney is the tried and tested company, they have decades of material under their belt while something like Apple TV is just about to launch their tv/movie library. Plus Hbo max/Peacock are also gonna be Apple TV's competition when it comes to streaming content, I just dont think Apple TV has a large library to be a threat to a company like Disney. While YouTube is losing money, from what I read esrlier this year, and most people use YouTube for free. Like I dont anyone who pays for YouTube Red.

I understand what you are saying about content. On that front, Apple can't compete with Disney or AT&T, etc. Where they do have a leg up is with their massive customer base. There are 1.4 + billion active Apple devices globally. While Apple builds their IP library (or purchases it in the future), Disney, Netflix, HBO and others will be just as focused on building their customer reach globally.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Didn’t the late, great, highly revered critic Roger Ebert say one time that video games weren’t art? I disagree with Ebert on that as much I disagree with Scorcese or Coppola on superhero films “not being cinema” or “being despicable.” Even the best of the best can be wrong.

Ebert did later make a few exceptions when it came to some video games. I remember him praising Shadow of the Colossus. I also feel like Coppola has been bitter with the business since the 90s, which is when he lost his mojo.

True story, I still get his private Carmine cigars not advertised on his site anymore through the mail every once in a while tho, but you gotta call up. An old man named Robert will hand write you a thank you letter and all that.

 

[Kuwolski]

Yeah, but I really don't think this is Scorsese going on an old guy rant. He switched to digital, used cgi, recent film on a streaming service, is a netflix subscriber by his own admission. I just feel he is somewhat bitter over the industry in general and took it out on marvel because it is much easier to name marvel as a term for big tent-pole flicks. He also kinda wished the smaller or so called more important flicks got the same amount of coverage, which outside of OUATIH recently, they don't. 10 years ago his new film would easily be playing in a theater, now he gotta make a streaming deal to get it made, and coming from the golden era of the 70s, it is a tough pill to swallow. I have a friend in particular who is obsessed with all these flicks, but won't even bother with older films, and it makes my blood boil when we talk flicks, but he likes what he likes, so be it. His lost, but I also feel bitter having to drive over an hour to see the damn Lighthouse. First world problems.

No studio would be willing to pay 160 m for The Irishman either. They need a big ROI for theatrical release. Maybe they could have gotten it, but they saw it as too big a gamble.

 

[mclay18]

There was. But Disney is kind of pushing them out.

Disney has gotten too big for its britches -- and should be more heavily regulated. First it bought Pixar, then Marvel, then Lucasfilm, then ate a competitor (20th Century Fox). And now it has all this market share to impose strict profit and booking penalties to exhibitors in order to get a MCU or Lucasfilm release.

It's like the airline industry consolidation from a decade ago. Smaller studios like STX, A24 and Lionsgate are trying to plug the gap, but even most major specialty arthouse titles are being released by labels from major studios (like Focus Features and Sony Classics).

Disney has made it tough for its major competition (WB, Paramount, Sony, Universal) to get top release spots, and the reaction from those companies are putting the squeeze on the arthouse companies.

 

[Black Narcissus]

No studio would be willing to pay 160 m for The Irishman either. They need a big ROI for theatrical release. Maybe they could have gotten it, but they saw it as too big a gamble.

True, but the film budgets have gone up with passing years. 10 years ago it wouldn't be 160m. Wolf of Wallstreet had over 100mill budget and almost a 3hr running time and it made money, but that also had Leo.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Ebert did later make a few exceptions when it came to some video games. I remember him praising Shadow of the Colossus. I also feel like Coppola has been bitter with the business since the 90s, which is when he lost his mojo.

True story, I still get his private Carmine cigars not advertised on his site anymore through the mail every once in a while tho, but you gotta call up. An old man named Robert will hand write you a thank you letter and all that.

Dem stoagies any good?

 

[Black Narcissus]

Dem stoagies any good?

They are! I swear the old guy on the phone sounds like Clemenza.

 

[hafizbat]

I kind of feel he's lumping every CBM in with Marvel, although the MCU is what is being pointed out. To say that Coppola, is not referring to Raimi's Spider-Man 2, Nolan's TDK or Mangold's Logan cause those movies are different and Coppola is a big fan of those specific movies? I haven't read that.

Personally, I think that it's that CBMs have gone from one every couple of years to once, couple, a few to now we have 6-8 a year and they have become the new blockbusters.

Also, I never liked the McDonalds comparison because it feels like a back handed compliment or insult against the MCU. So if the MCU is McDonalds, what are the other CBMs that most people here like to bring up in comparison to the MCU, the Belvedere in BH or Daniel in NYC? Do I need a jacket and tie to watch TDK?

It's not a claim that Coppola is a fan of those movies, it's just that those movies seem to be more in line with "Cinema" as Scorcese and Coppola describe.

And McDonaldization is just a term to describe a company becoming extremely efficient, low-risk, and cost-effective. Finding the best bang for the buck and sticking to that. The term is even used in textbooks now I believe, and it fits the MCU model to a tee. You can think of it as Olive Gardenization if that's more appealing

I don't think movies like TDK are fancier restaurants (to continue the analogy) but rather local non-chain restaurants. They're unique and their own thing rather than part of a chain, is all.

 

[Erzengel]

Ebert did later make a few exceptions when it came to some video games. I remember him praising Shadow of the Colossus. I also feel like Coppola has been bitter with the business since the 90s, which is when he lost his mojo.

Personally, I think Coppola peaked in the 70s. I liked Dracula and Rainmaker but those films don't touch what he did in the 70s with Godfather, Conversation, Godfather 2 and Apocalypse Now.

 

[Black Narcissus]

It's not a claim that Coppola is a fan of those movies, it's just that those movies seem to be more in line with "Cinema" as Scorcese and Coppola describe.

And McDonaldization is just a term to describe a company becoming extremely efficient, low-risk, and cost-effective. Finding the best bang for the buck and sticking to that. The term is even used in textbooks now I believe, and it fits the MCU model to a tee. You can think of it as Olive Gardenization if that's more appealing

I don't think movies like TDK are fancier restaurants (to continue the analogy) but rather local non-chain restaurants. They're unique and their own thing rather than part of a chain, is all.

MCU is McDonalds and TDK is In n Out. Both good on a drunken afternoon.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm not about to start trying to diminish the work of legendary filmmakers because they have an opinion on movies I don't agree with.

 

[Zarex]

Disney has gotten too big for its britches -- and should be more heavily regulated. First it bought Pixar, then Marvel, then Lucasfilm, then ate a competitor (20th Century Fox). And now it has all this market share to impose strict profit and booking penalties to exhibitors in order to get a MCU or Lucasfilm release.

It's like the airline industry consolidation from a decade ago. Smaller studios like STX, A24 and Lionsgate are trying to plug the gap, but even most major specialty arthouse titles are being released by labels from major studios (like Focus Features and Sony Classics).

Disney has made it tough for its major competition (WB, Paramount, Sony, Universal) to get top release spots, and the reaction from those companies are putting the squeeze on the arthouse companies.

While the Mouse is currently dominating at the BO, the theater going audience is in a state of perpetual decline. And there is no guarantee that the franchise model will continue to deliver, the Fox acquisition will pay off in the long term or that the company will succeed in a crowded streaming market. And while the Mouse is big, the company pales in size to mega competitors like Apple and Amazon.

I think the current level of regulation is fine. If Disney dominates long term it will be due to great long term planning and not a lack of competition.

 

[Erzengel]

It's not a claim that Coppola is a fan of those movies, it's just that those movies seem to be more in line with "Cinema" as Scorcese and Coppola describe.

But it's still an assumption and honestly, what I feel that CBM fans who aren't fans of MCU who are quick to say that Scorcese has a point but in the same breath, say, well he's definitely not talking about this other CBM, that I happen to be a fan of.

And McDonaldization is just a term to describe a company becoming extremely efficient, low-risk, and cost-effective. Finding the best bang for the buck and sticking to that. The term is even used in textbooks now I believe, and it fits the MCU model to a tee. You can think of it as Olive Gardenization if that's more appealing

Then what is the Transformers or Pirates movies? Movies that get panned but still gross $1B+. There are MCU movies that higher critical scores than Logan or Joker, but those are still McDonald movies? I don't agree.

I don't think movies like TDK are fancier restaurants (to continue the analogy) but rather local non-chain restaurants. They're unique and their own thing rather than part of a chain, is all.

Except just being a movie about Batman or Spider-Man make them a chain imo. Again, it just feels it's a way of saying this certain CBM is better although we would find it under the same category in a Best Buy or FYE. There's no separate Super Superhero section for just the "good" CBMs.

 

[hafizbat]

But it's still an assumption and honestly, what I feel that CBM fans who aren't fans of MCU who are quick to say that Scorcese has a point but in the same breath, say, well he's definitely not talking about this other CBM, that I happen to be a fan of.



Then what is the Transformers or Pirates movies? Movies that get panned but still gross $1B+. There are MCU movies that higher critical scores than Logan or Joker, but those are still McDonald movies? I don't agree.


Except just being a movie about Batman or Spider-Man make them a chain imo. Again, it just feels it's a way of saying this certain CBM is better although we would find it under the same category in a Best Buy or FYE. There's no separate Super Superhero section for just the "good" CBMs.

I'm a fan of many MCU movies and certainly think movies like Iron Man, The Winter Soldier, and Black Panther would give these filmmakers a better impression than the likes of Spider-Man or Ant-Man or even Avengers movies. Yes, this is pure conjecture..

McDonalization is not referring to the quality of the movies. It's a term referring to the practices that enable efficiency and maximum profits. The MCU definitely exemplifies this with the way they produce their movies. Again it's not a slight or statement about the quality. You need to separate the two.

You are free to categorize or label different CBMs as you like. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Erzengel]

I'm a fan of many MCU movies and certainly think movies like Iron Man, The Winter Soldier, and Black Panther would give these filmmakers a better impression than the likes of Spider-Man or Ant-Man or even Avengers movies. Yes, this is pure conjecture..

McDonalization is not referring to the quality of the movies. It's a term referring to the practices that enable efficiency and maximum profits. The MCU definitely exemplifies this with the way they produce their movies. Again it's not a slight or statement about the quality. You need to separate the two.

You are free to categorize or label different CBMs as you like. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

What Studios aren't trying to enable efficiency and maximize profits? If anything isn't Marvel the one who took the ballziest chance by putting their whole library of characters as collateral so that the Avengers could be made?

Two of Fox's best imo movies Deadpool and Logan were done on the cheap, because the Studio didn't necessarily believe in them. That's low risk and cost effective. Even WB's last 3 CBM if you include BOP were all about low risk and low cost in order to maximize profits.

 

[DA_Champion]

There's no separate Super Superhero section for just the "good" CBMs.

Since we're using the analogy, the same is true of restaurants. A Starbucks can be right next door to a genuinely good café. It means nothing that they're neighbours, we can tell that one is better than the other.

 

[Erzengel]

Since we're using the analogy, the same is true of restaurants. A Starbucks can be right next door to a genuinely good café. It means nothing that they're neighbours, we can tell that one is better than the other.

Well then who decides which is the Starbucks and which is the Good Cafe'? The critics? The fans? The general audience?

 

[hafizbat]

What Studios aren't trying to enable efficiency and maximize profits? If anything isn't Marvel the one who took the ballziest chance by putting their whole library of characters as collateral so that the Avengers could be made?

Two of Fox's best imo movies Deadpool and Logan were done on the cheap, because the Studio didn't necessarily believe in them. That's low risk and cost effective. Even WB's last 3 CBM if you include BOP were all about low risk and low cost in order to maximize profits.

I never said Marvel was cheap...

 

[hafizbat]

Well then who decides which is the Starbucks and which is the Good Cafe'? The critics? The fans? The general audience?

They usually have a sign outside the door.

 

[DA_Champion]

Well then who decides which is the Starbucks and which is the Good Cafe'? The critics? The fans? The general audience?

Starbucks is such an extreme example that it leads to an easy answer -- it is regarded as bad or mediocre by nearly everybody with a clue. Their food is also less fresh, and they tend to feel more cluttered and dirtier. It's an inferior product all around.

It's hard to argue that the Marvel movies are that bad. I don't think that they are, though as before I wonder which movies Scorsese has actually seen.

 

[OutOfBoose]

For me it's more about getting out of comfort zone. It's the main reason I lost any interest with MCU.

 

[Kuwolski]

McDonalization is not referring to the quality of the movies. It's a term referring to the practices that enable efficiency and maximum profits. The MCU definitely exemplifies this with the way they produce their movies. Again it's not a slight or statement about the quality. You need to separate the two.

You are free to categorize or label different CBMs as you like. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I actually agree with this. I completely understand wanting to keep a good thing going, or not changing what works, but if you don't change the narrative of how these films can be made, or what people want, then someone else will. Things evolve and perceptions change. I feel after twelve years they need to start embracing the element of surprise with it's audience more. Like the Steve Jobs philosophy of trying to get ahead of what consumers will want before they do.

 

[Timebomb]

Watched Watchmen on HBO. I have no idea what the hell I just watched but entertained enough to continue watching for the time being

 

[Reek]

 

[KRYPTON INC.]