Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[DarthSkywalker]

Just watched the first part of CW''s Crisis and not gonna lie, it's pretty bad

So, the usual CW fare. Seriously though, I can't believe there was a time when that stuff was considered quality on the whole. Not that it doesn't have some really nice bright spots, but as a whole, goddamn.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Oh, and I’m guessing based off the dialogue and certain shots in the trailer that

Spoiler

Steve will be brought back because of magical shenanigans instigated by Lord and the key to defeating him will be Diana having to move on from Steve and choose to send him back to the cold embrace of death.

Spoiler

I thought you saw a trailer for Doctor Strange and was talking about Captain America, I was surprised to hear a trailer for DS 2 is out.
And then I remembered the name Trevor.

 

[mclay18]

I think we are also asking for the impossible. Batman has such an expansive gallery of characters. To expect him to appear in every one of the spin offs is just asking for a lot.

And this will also be Gadot's 4th movie as WW. Wondering if the 3rd WW will be her last which I'm guessing will be in 2023/2024.

Gadot seems to really enjoy playing WW. She’ll probably keep playing Diana as long as she wants to.

 

[Deck Rickard]

So, the usual CW fare. Seriously though, I can't believe there was a time when that stuff was considered quality on the whole. Not that it doesn't have some really nice bright spots, but as a whole, goddamn.

Yeah I was considering checking it out but after watching a couple trailers, I was like, “NOPE.” So bad.

 

[Detective Conan]

Yet.

Does an R-rating mean adult? As to more mature storytelling, that is television's game at the moment. I mean it is kind of nuts that Watchmen came from the same company that put out the Joker. One of the most complex and mature stories ever put on television, and then crappy Scorsese for incels.

R-rating in the sense of content that is generally meant to be seen by adults, not children. Granted that doesn’t always equal quality per se’ but it does help bring some variety and opportunity to experiment with more heavier topics that would be a huge no-no in a typical PG-13 surperhero fare. I thought Joker was well-done for what it was trying to do but clearly you don’t.

Not every superhero movie should be family friendly movies that appeals to a four quadrant audience and you calling Joker “Scorcese for incels” is a ironic considering Scorcese has kind of made a ‘incel movie’. A little movie called Taxi Driver which is about a lonely, angry man and and scapesgoats society for his problems, and has delusions of grandeur and at the end is heralded a hero for killing a whole bunch of people by the mainstream media. It’s arguably more of a incel movie than Joker ever was. An incel likely to identify more with Travis Bickle more than Arthur Fleck.

 

[Erzengel]

Gadot seems to really enjoy playing WW. She’ll probably keep playing Diana as long as she wants to.

RDJ, Hemsworth & Jackman are examples of people staying around for a while.

As long as she wants to do it, but we can't assume there's going to be a Wonder Woman 4.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

R-rating in the sense of content that is generally meant to be seen by adults, not children. Granted that doesn’t always equal quality per se’ but it does help bring some variety and opportunity to experiment with more heavier topics that would be a huge no-no in a the typical PG-13 surperhero fare.

Not every superhero movie should be family friendly movies that appeals to a four quadrant audience and you calling Joker “Scorcese for incels” is a ironic considering Scorcese has kind of made a ‘incel movie’. A little movie called Taxi Driver which is about a entitled lonely, angry man who’s misogynist and and scapesgoats society for its problems and at the end is heralded a hero for killing a whole bunch of people by the mainstream media. It’s arguably more of a incel movie than Joker ever was.

Black Panther was PG-13. What superhero movie over the last decade had heavier themes then Black Panther?

Oh, you don't think I know what Taxi Driver is? Or the King of Comedy? Or that the man made Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Wolf, etc? That is strange considering I called the Joker a crappy Scorsese movie, no? Those movies all had insane depth of character, while making one thing very clear. Those were all bad people. Even the "misunderstood" one. They never glorify the monsters are the heart of the story. The irony of Taxi Driver is that people think Travis isn't a creep. Just like those strange think pieces about Wolf, where it was clear as day who the "villain" was.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

RDJ, Hemsworth & Jackman are examples of people staying around for a while.

As long as she wants to do it, but we can't assume there's going to be a Wonder Woman 4.

I don't think Patty would want to do a fourth one. Gal on the other hand, probably would. She isn't exactly flush with roles. That being said, she'd be around 40 then, and Hollywood doesn't like to acknowledge women over 35 existence, unless it is awards season.

 

[Schlosser85]

Black Panther was PG-13. What superhero movie over the last decade had heavier themes then Black Panther?

Oh, you don't think I know what Taxi Driver is? Or the King of Comedy? Or that the man made Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Wolf, etc? That is strange considering I called the Joker a crappy Scorsese movie, no? Those movies all had insane depth of character, while making one thing very clear. Those were all bad people. Even the "misunderstood" one. They never glorify the monsters are the heart of the story. The irony of Taxi Driver is that people think Travis isn't a creep. Just like those strange think pieces about Wolf, where it was clear as day who the "villain" was.

Joker doesn't make it clear that Arthur is a bad person? Because Arthur is creepy as **** and has even less well-intentioned motives in his climactic violence than Travis Bickle does.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, adult content doesn't necessarily mean mature. I would point out the difference between Deadpool and Logan.

 

[MadVillainy]

Joker doesn't make it clear that Arthur is a bad person? Because Arthur is creepy as **** and has even less well-intentioned motives in his climactic violence than Travis Bickle does.

It does make it clear. Some people just have weird opinions about Joker. Fleck was no more glorified than the standard "villain" of a movie with a villain protagonist like gangster movies, Taxi Driver, King of Comedy, Fight Club. If you don't have a problem with those then I don't see why you'd have a problem with Flecl's treatment in Joker

You want to see a movie that glorifies the villain protagonist, look at Wolf of Wall Street. Love that movie to death but it for sure glorifies Belfort

 

[Schlosser85]

I've seen both Taxi Driver and Joker and if anything Arthur Fleck is even more creepy and an even worse person than Travis Bickle.

 

[mclay18]

I don't think Patty would want to do a fourth one. Gal on the other hand, probably would. She isn't exactly flush with roles. That being said, she'd be around 40 then, and Hollywood doesn't like to acknowledge women over 35 existence, unless it is awards season.

Gadot has a Showtime limited series in development where she’ll play Hedy Lemarr, she’s producing it with her husband.

And she’s doing that Netflix movie with Dwayne Johnson and Ryan Reynolds next year....

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Joker doesn't make it clear that Arthur is a bad person?

Not my diagnosis. The movie goes out of it's way to blame everyone else, from a dude on television to his own mother to Batman's papa. The movie has the world crap on him from the very start (like how they have a bunch of minorities do it, for effect), placing him in the role of some sort of victim so close to justifiably snapping. I mean, the medical professionals won't even help him as he spills his guts out.

His first big act of violence is "self-defense", his mother is fair game because of what she "did to him", Thomas Wayne is the evil 1% and the finale is literally him welling with tears because he was "bullied". The two acts of potential violence that could have been truly held against him in the context of the film, they avoid. One by not showing if it happened or not, the other he lets the person go because they were always nice to him. Indicating these other people are getting what they deserve because they didn't, "treat him right". The climax of the film literally has him exalted for his actions, giving him the love and admiration those that commit such acts of violence literally commit them for. The finale of the film killed it completely for me, because it showed he wasn't crazy. If anything, he was just really pissed off and used his condition as an excuse for violence. If he was insane, he doesn't start crying like that. He isn't so upset, he wouldn't even care. That he is then rewarded for his actions and gains relief from that makes it more clear imo.

This is before we get into the whole, "is it real". Which, well does not help a thing imo and if anything potentially makes that whole aspect even worse. Because it then really does turn into a incels wet dream.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I've seen both Taxi Driver and Joker and if anything Arthur Fleck is even more creepy and an even worse person than Travis Bickle.

He is. I'd wager he is the worst person I have seen on film this year, and this year is going to have both Thanos and the Emperor. But that isn't how the story views him. It reminds me of conversations about Kylo Ren. Joker sees him like those tumblr fans see Kylo.

 

[MadVillainy]

I really don't understand some of the reaction to Joker.
I liked the movie. It wore its influences on its sleeve, but I thought it had a lot or really good things about it. I get not liking it however. It's not a perfect movie and it obviously has it's fair share of flaws.

But I don't understand some of these weird narratives surrounding it.
Pre Wide Release, some people acting like it was this ultra violent, super dark movie that will rock people to the core
Post Release, people acting like the movie validates or encourages people to commit violent acts and that Joker is treated as a hero. But then again people like Scarface's ending and think that Tony Montana went out "cool"

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Gadot has a Showtime limited series in development where she’ll play Hedy Lemarr, she’s producing it with her husband.

And she’s doing that Netflix movie with Dwayne Johnson and Ryan Reynolds next year....

Yes. This is her banking in on her Wonder Woman cred. Which I am very happy about. But again, how many roles is that? Throw in her Ralph voice work and Death on the Nile. 4 roles post Wonder Woman? That's crazy.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I really don't understand some of the reaction to Joker.
I liked the movie. It wore its influences on its sleeve, but I thought it had a lot or really good things about it. I get not liking it however. It's not a perfect movie and it obviously has it's fair share of flaws.

But I don't understand some of these weird narrative surrounding it.
Pre Wide Release, some people acting like it was this ultra violent, super dark movie that will rock people to the core
Post Release, people acting like the movie validates or encourages people to commit violent acts and that Joker is treated as a hero. But then again people like Scarface's ending and think that Tony Montana went out "cool"

One of the big issues with Joker is it's a bunch of bull****. To the point that the director says it has no message, which is the all time ****ing cop out.

For a minute consider what Joker is theoretically about. Consider that it is a movie that is telling us how awful Arthur is. Why then is it that all that people seem to be getting out of it, is to dress like him and dance down some steps? You know, in a world where people like Arthur are committing violent acts across the US every single day. And we apparently mourn that but... yeah.

 

[MadVillainy]

One of the big issues with Joker is it's a bunch of bull****. To the point that the director says it has no message, which is the all time ****ing cop out.

For a minute consider what Joker is theoretically about. Consider that it is a movie that is telling us how awful Arthur is. Why then is it that all that people seem to be getting out of it, is to dress like him and dance down some steps? You know, in a world where people like Arthur are committing violent acts across the US every single day. And we apparently mourn that but... yeah.

The bolded, just seems like a personal thing rather than any constructive opinion of the movie. It reads like you're just upset at Todd Phillips.

And your 2nd point I don't get at all. It's like asking, after Black Panther why is it that most people got out of Killmonger is to dress like him or in Scarface people take away "Say hello to my lil friend!" Tons of people miss the point of tons of movies, books, characters, etc.

And so people commit violent acts daily. That's nothing new. So why is it Joker that people are taking a stand on?
People have been violent drug dealers for years and we still praise something like Breaking Bad (that routinely showed how badass Walt was), The Wire (where it shows "bad" guys routinely as "cool" or "badass"), or Narcos.
Another example, people have been white collar criminals for years, but we still praised Wolf of Wall Street which again to me was the clearest example of gloryfiying drug use and white collar crime.
I don't get why Joker is where people are drawing a line in the sand. It reminds me when Let's Be Cops came out and some reviewers were saying things like: "Man, with the way cops are acting this movie showings cops act responsible is dangerous." Cops abusing their authority is nothing new, neither is violence, crime, etc. Tons of forms of media make bad guys or unsavory characters look cool.
Should we just not have movies anymore with villain protagonists or that try and make a villain look cool? Or even "heroes" like Batman should be pushed to the side because it shows overzealous people upholding the law through brute force?

If you really look at Joker and see it as a glorification or a disturbed and mentally ill mind, then I don't know what to tell you. It's just not there unless you really looking for it

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Yes. This is her banking in on her Wonder Woman cred. Which I am very happy about. But again, how many roles is that? Throw in her Ralph voice work and Death on the Nile. 4 roles post Wonder Woman? That's crazy.

She isn't a good actress so I can see why she's not getting people throwing leading roles at her. WW was a hit but not such a big hit that it would compensate for that.

There's acting criticisms towards other rising actresses like Daisy Ridley, Emilia Clarke, etc, but they are still far better than Gadot.

 

[MadVillainy]

She isn't a good actress so I can see why she's not getting people throwing leading roles at her. WW was a hit but not such a big hit that it would compensate for that.

There's acting criticisms towards other rising actresses like Daisy Ridley, Emilia Clarke, etc, but they are still far better than Gadot.

Yeah I don't think Gadot is a good actress...but let's not pretend Hollywood hasn't thrown oodles of roles at subpar talent just because they were in a successful movie. And WW was a huge hit, more than big enough to compensate for that

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Yeah I don't think Gadot is a good actress...but let's not pretend Hollywood hasn't thrown oodles of roles at subpar talent because they were in a successful movie. And WW was a huge hit, more than big enough to compensate for that

Evidently it hasn't compensated for it so I'm right. Why hire an actress that constantly sounds like she's reading lines when there are other hot rising actresses that can act?

 

[Web-Head]

Gal will be fine. Wonder Woman and especially with Patty and Chris Pine she does extremely well and I thought Keeping up with The Joneses was actually somewhat decent. If anything I'm sure they can find a way to bring her back in Fast of the Furious, lol

 

[Boy Scout]

Spoiler

Close, but Lord actually has nothing to do with Steve coming back. The object he comes into possession of, however does.

Ah, gotcha, thank you.

 

[MadVillainy]

Evidently it hasn't compensated for it so I'm right. Why hire an actress that constantly sounds like she's reading lines when there are other hot rising actresses that can act?

Again...there are plenty of examples that proves that it doesn't matter. So no you're not right. Channing Tatum early in his career was seen as horrible and he kept getting roles. And that's just one example

Another thing to note: Chris Evans barely had any non MCU jobs post Cap through Endgame. Even less if you look for starring/marquee roles. Doesn't mean he's a bad actor.