Superman & Lois General News & Discussion Thread (TAG SPOILERS!)

Discussion in 'Superman & Lois' started by flickchick85, Feb 25, 2020.

  1. SupermanFan Registered

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    Yup I agree. People tend to take a side before knowing all the details, they’d rather be outraged than level headed. She’s a disgruntled writer who was fired, she’s going to tell what she sees as her truth but it could be as you say that maybe it’s the way she pushed for more diversity rather than pushing for diversity in & of itself.

    Also as you say the cast already has diversity and there will be more as the series on.
     
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  2. Primal Slayer Let the Siren scream

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    Automatically painting her as the disgruntled employee isn't any better just because she brings up race/sex. But thus far, those of us who believe it is a possibility are coming from a place of IF it happened.
     
  3. SupermanFan Registered

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    I’m explaining WHY she could be exaggerating.

    What I see is those that are taking her side without all the details and those of us who think there’s a possibility that she may just be leaving important information out.
     
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  4. flickchick85 Admin of Might

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  5. fan4stic Registered

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    Isn't she disgruntled? Google's definition for that is:

    dis·grun·tled
    /ˌdisˈɡrən(t)ld/

    adjective

    1. angry or dissatisfied.
    I think she, as far as I've read, to me, comes off as, at least, dissatisfied. I don't think that's necessarily saying she's wrong or bad (assuming this definition is what the poster intended when they said it).

    I don't think there's an outright denial here that this is possible at all, from the opposing side.
    I said how she pushed for it, not that she did.
     
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  6. Primal Slayer Let the Siren scream

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    Sure, wrong wording but either way. People dont want people to jump to assumptions but are fine saying that she "isnt right for the show" and generally wrong/blowing things out of proportions, that isnt any better. Unless she was unprofessional with the way she handled it, her bringing it up and pushing for it was fine and like I've said IF this is how it happened, she shouldnt have been let go for it.
     
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  7. jetage Registered

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    Getting a job writing in Hollywood is difficult enough, so why would this person hurt their career even further by twisting the truth? Seriously, why ruin you career for something you don't believe in? Who else in the industry would want to hire you? This person took a stand for what they believe in, whether people like it or not. You do not have to agree, but give them the benefit of the doubt, no one personally sabotages their own career as a writer, only actors do that.
     
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  8. Frodo Registered

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    To be fair, that's a two way street .

    Since we don't know all the details, that means we shouldn't automatically given deference to the producers for her firing, just as we shouldn't form an opinion on her end without all the facts.

    If we're waiting for more facts , that means we don't take either person's side without all the evidence.

    As for me, i'm not outraged.

    I'm still trying to get an answer to my original question of what Pagey felt made her wrong for the writing job on the show.

    Pagey pointed to the blog as evidence yet wasn't clear of how the blog demonstrated she was wrong for the show.

    If he can point to what exactly it was I could possibly agree them , but I truly want to know what he was referring to.

    I'm not speaking from a point of outrage. I'm literally trying to figure out what Pagey was talking about since it was so vague and open to all types of interpretation.
     
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  9. SupermanFan Registered

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    I think one of the things that stood out to me was her wanting to race bend the Kent’s. It’s one of those that I think would be a change for change sakes just so you can have more representation.

    I think from what I read in her interview, she comes across pushy in wanting to implement her ideas and I can imagine if you’re in charge trying to get the show going that would rub you the wrong way. That’s a possible view I think anyway.

    As for Pagey, if he’s seeing it as I am then he could be on about that, I’m assuming that’s what he’s talking about anyway. But for specifics you’d have to ask him.
     
  10. Frodo Registered

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    Well, that fact the you and I both aren't quite sure what he meant, means the onus is on him to state that clearly , because one can take infer lots of different things from what he said, hence my question.

    As far as race bending goes, I don't have an issue with that.

    There's already an African American Jimmy Olsen in the CW verse, and we've already had an African American Perry White on screen , in addition to other race bending castings across the genre.

    So, its not unprecedented for some of these characters to be played by actors who are of a different ethnic background from their comic book counter parts.

    I know there are fans who have issues with that type of thing, but I'm not one of them.

    I don't feel you can ever have "too much diversity" so to speak.

    Again, not something alot of fans tend to agree with , but that's how I feel.

    If the actors the found for the Kents were good, and they happened to be African American, or mixed race couple, I'd have zero issue with it.

    Now, as far as the interview goes, even if she came across a pushy or even mean, I still don't see from the interview what made her so wrong as a writer for the series.

    Pushy writers, even temperamental writers, directors, and producers ,are a dime a dozen in the entertainment business, and if they all got canned because of it , the whole entertainment business would shut down.

    It's not show friends, it's show business. So, I really don't buy that as a rationale for the producers canning her.

    Now ,if we're talking about a different creative vision for the show all together ,in which the two sides can't reconcile on the direction of a series, that I could see happening , and that does happen.

    But, if's its only about her advocating and pushing for more diversity on a series, which is what she claims, then yeah, I think it's problematic no matter how you slice it.

    That may not be the case, and it may have to do with more of a creative divide , but as of now, we don't have all the information, and the producers have been mum on her firing.
     
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  11. fan4stic Registered

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    I don't remember if I've seen someone here, directly, factually, say that.

    I said how she pushed for it, not that she did, I meant, as a possibility.
    Was it said that she was twisting, for a fact? This is can simply be her perception of the situation, than her necessarily twisting something. But also, some may not think about the consequences and act out, if she were twisting.
    I think that wouldn't make sense for many versions, where the Kents are passing for Clark's biological parents. Smallville got away with this with a certain story, but I don't think this show would delve into that, or think that it would make sense to if the Kents aren't prominent in the show, and I don't see why the show should.
     
  12. NotToday Registered

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    It was part of her job to bring ideas and suggestions to the table. Also, going by her statements, this wasn't just a 'one writer vs. the showrunner' situation. Others in the room and outside the room (I'm assuming the network, or DC?) had similar notes.
     
  13. NotToday Registered

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    This is a new version of Superman; the perfect time to change things if they want. You don't see a reason why - I don't see a reason why not. If the Kents aren't prominent, that might actually make it easier to cast them as non-white.
     
  14. NotToday Registered

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    Anyone have a source for this info?
     
  15. herolee10 No More Miracles

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  16. herolee10 No More Miracles

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  17. Frodo Registered

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    Well, it depends.

    If Johnathan Kent or Martha was a lighter skinned African American, or Martha was a lighter skinned woman of Latina Heritage while Johnathan was Caucasian, there's nothing to say Clark couldn't pass as their child.


    African Americans and Latino's come in all shades , and alot of them can be mistaken or pass for Caucasian. Heck , alot of times their children can be mistaken or assumed to be Caucasian.

    There's nothing to say Martha couldn't have a similar racial make up as Kirsten Kreuk from Smallville.

    Heck , no one in the 90s had a problem with Dean Cain's Clark having clearly Caucasian parents when Dean Cain had some Japanese heritage .

    This is America after all , which is a melting pot .

    So the argument that it wouldn't make sense for Clark to have either a mixed race parents or an interracial couple as parents doesn't really hold up.

    Now as far as whether or not the Kents are or become a prominent part of the show remains to be seen.
     
    #917 Frodo, Nov 26, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
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  18. fan4stic Registered

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    But I don't think that Dean Cain's ethnicity was really noticeable. Now, in theory, that could play. But that doesn't equal that it would work, as a whole.
    Like I said, in regards to the show, in a lot of versions they have to pass for biological parents. Smallville had a storyline to do this with. I don't see the show doing that kind of story.
     
  19. NotToday Registered

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    I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make? Because it sounds like we agree; if there isn't a story reason for Ma & Pa Kent to be white, then they don't need to be white.
     
  20. Frodo Registered

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    It was pretty noticeable at the time, and it was commented on at the time , hence , we have the knowledge of his background today.

    And yes, it can work as a whole. Additionally, Clark in that version was adopted I believe , by the Kents and in Smallville he was adopted from what I remember.

    He's also been adopted in other versions including STM I believe. So if the concern is somehow, that a Caucasian child couldn't believably look like the child of mixed race parents, which in itself isn't necessarily true depending on the racial make up of the parents, then they could always go the adoption route of other versions of the myths as opposed to the "Martha gave birth" version.

    So there's nothing to say that a multiracial couple couldn't adopt a Caucasian child.

    It's not impossible to do if they wanted to. So , either way the issue is a non issue if the concern is about appearances.

    Now, whether that's the direction they would want to go is another matter. But if they did , they could do it.
     
  21. chamber-music Infinity Ammo

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    There are African American characters like Ron Troupe and John Henry Irons in the Superman mythos they could use.

    Ron was married to Lucy Lane and they had a kid called Sam. So Lois's and Clark's brother-in-law is black and they have a biracial nephew.

    Steel was dating Lana Lang in the comics as well.
     
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  22. SupermanFan Registered

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    It might be part of her job to bring different ideas but what if she wasn’t relenting on the ideas that were said no to?

    You don’t know that it wasn’t though, we literally have one side to the story with no one else’s words.

    Ma & Pa Kent have been white since their inception, we know the history of the Kent’s. Simple race bending them to fit in more black characters doesn’t solve representation problems. It’s not like the writer had certain actors in mind either she literally wanted to make them black to have more black characters in the show. And personally while I do think there are characters that can easily be changed ethnicity or gender it’s one of those double standards things where it’s ok for one way but not the other.

    There are several black characters in the Superman lore that we will likely see as the show progresses, John Henry Irons, Natasha Irons, Ron Troupe and so on. You don’t have to race bend, just create stories where we can bring in these and other characters of different ethnicities.
     
  23. Primal Slayer Let the Siren scream

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    It's hard to be a double standard when 90% of characters are white. This whole "its ok to make white characters a different race but not ok to make characters of color, white" is never going to be a sensible argument imo.

    She suggested that they could race bend one or both of the Kents, you dont need to have actors in mind to suggest that because it doesn't matter. They will audition actors and the casting director is going to fill the role.
     
  24. NotToday Registered

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    I get it. You don't like racebending, and you'd prefer that they didn't do it; that's fine, although I disagree. I'd say racebending does solve some representation problems - not all, but some. There's no double standard -- the Standard is whiteness. Racebending helps level things out.

    Yeah, I'm not doing "what if"s. A black woman in white male dominated Hollywood doesn't get to her level (or any level, if we wanna go there...) without knowing how to act. According to her, the only criticisms she got were about her scripts/writing, not her presentation.

    And if the showrunner can't handle his writing room, maybe he's in the wrong job. -LOL (Which he may be, based on how he handled The Flash, IMO.)

    Also, what would she be exaggerating about? I re-read the interviews, and her main complaints seem to be about ignoring suggestions for diverse casting, and stories for the female characters (mentioned in her tweet) -- all of that will be very easy to verify when the show comes out. The only thing that I can see that could be argued is the Helbing quote.

    I mean, she's not even arguing that she was wrongly fired -- her contract just wasn't renewed (and she's disappointed/confused by that). That's why I think there isn't going to an "other side of the story" or answer from the producers; the casting is either diverse or it isn't, and it will be self-evident.
     
  25. Wheels Groovy

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    Dean Cain's version of the character grows in my estimation the more I watch Lois and Clark.

    Such an underrated version of the Superman mythos. No obnoxious allegories. No Jor-El obsession, just Clark is a good hearted man, who is an idealist, an immigrant from another world with great adoptive parents. Part of him wants to protect the human race because he wants to belong, he wants to be accepted.

    He is the Champion of the Oppressed, the symbol for the workingclass, the guy who will be sitting next to you watching the game and eating hot wings.

    He also just happens to have God-like power.

    Will it take a complete change where he doesn't look white to understand this? If so, then do it.

    We need Superman in this moment I believe, .more than Batman.

    And if all it takes is change of skin color to end talk of the master race and the white savior then so be it.

    We need Superman.
     
    #925 Wheels, Nov 27, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020

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