The Dark Knight TDK analogy - King Arthur?

[mad-sci]

Maybe it's me, but I'm beginning to notice a distinct trend in the type of film Nolan and co. are going for.

BB WAS a 70's style/western-based flick, where the stranger (Batman) comes to town, and with the help of the few righteous (Gordon, Rachel) helps rid it of corruption (From Filmforce).


Even from the title, TDK is based more on a medieval type of story, sort of like King Arthur. Before you dismiss it, here me out.



Batman IS the Dark Knight, and so far the crew have done everything possible to emphasise this connection. The new suit is armoured with chainmail, his new vehicle is a bike (a modern equivalent of a horse), and other [SPOILERS] suggest that he follows other characteristics of knights. Just as a knight is bound to protect his king/castle, Batman is bound to protect Gotham.

If you continue with that analogy, Gordon is the Sheriff (law) of the land, and the new mayor (played by the latino actor) represents the King of Gotham. Harvey represents the 'new' prince (whilst Bruce is the favourite old one). Maroni is the enemy of those in charge of Gotham, who is trying to take control. All that taken together shows a simple, standard storyline (and looks like what TDK is about).


But we're missing one character in a medieval story - the Court Jester (really hard to figure out who's playing this part, eh? . ). The Jester tries to cheer up the people of the land, but ends up annoying everyone and causing lots of trouble. He's not the conventional villain (who wants to take or destroy the castle/land) - he just wants to prank everyone to try and make them laugh.




Anyone else think I might be onto something here?

 

[Rezzo]

I guess I can see that analogy sort of

 

[spdrknight]

I don't really see the "King Arthur" analogy. From what your presented it seemed like Nolan may be reaching back and taking elements of the classic hero-type story, a fantasy to be specific. But not King Arthur specifically.

 

[Crook]

Most of it sounds plausible, but I think the jester comparison isn't exactly accurate to Joker.

 

[sasquatchs]

Sorta. Doesn't quite fit

"A kingdom under siege always selects one man to protect his people. It's his duty. His honor. And when he's victorious, power is passed onto a successor who will take up his mantle"

"Someone like you? Or...could it be that you are this secret, honorable knight who is desperate to save his land and lay down his arms?"

I'm not even sure what the first person is getting at. Is it Rachel and she's acting coy to Dent about her knowledge of Batman?

 

[Chucktallica101]

hmmm...

 

[batman11]

hmmm...

Post of the year.

 

[sasquatchs]

Sums it up. Its a good OP, I'm just too tired to write an eloquent response. Someone help us out

 

[rogue trooper]

I guess The Joker would be a male Morgan LaFey?

 

[chintai80]

The Joker is a f'ed up version of the court jester.

 

[Anguissette1979]

The Joker is a f'ed up version of the court jester.

Most "court jesters" were mentally ******ed or otherwise impaired or "simple"... Joker strikes me as an intelligent, calculated, cold blooded killer

 

[chintai80]

Most "court jesters" were mentally ******ed or otherwise impaired or "simple"... Joker strikes me as an intelligent, calculated, cold blooded killer

yea, that's what i meant.

 

[Borat]

hmmm...

my thoughts exactly...old chum.

 

[The Guard]

These are simple archetypes found in the kind of literature known as the Hero Quest, which is the basic hero story that all others tend to draw from. They have nothing to do with King Arthur, though the "kingdom" theme is there with Batman and Gotham and Arthur and Camelot. That's where the similarities end.

 

[bstringer]

baaa wha ha ha ha ha...im sorry dude...theres no Analogy here.

 

[Nepenthes]

I don't know about King Arthur but the brave medievel knight of legend is definitly there.

I was actually thinking the other day someone should do an elseworlds, "The Knight, The Squire, The Jester".

 

[BubbaGump]

Hey, will you look at that! The film's title is the Dark Knight!

But seriously mad-sci, this is actually an interesting analogy (though I wouldn't quite compare it to King Arthur--just compare it to the Middle Age feudal system). Your comparisons are pretty much spot on (jester, bike-horse, etc.).

 

[strider]

If you had just not used the whole King Aurther comparision thing then I think this would have been an awesome post. I think most kids here dont like your Jester = Joker thing because it makes him seem like an idiot or that the story(TDK) isnt going to be all about Joker. There's a lot more to this film than the jester and people just have to realize that.

 

[mad-sci]

You've also got some other similarities I've just noticed.

Just like Once and Future King, we have a Merlin role - split into 2 characters for BB/TDK. Alfred provides sage advice and moral support, whilst Fox offers technical support and strategies (science info).





You then have a VERY interesting thread which MIGHT set up the third film. It all ties to Bruce Wayne and Dent (not Batman).

In BB, Bruce was referred to as both 'Gotham's favourite son', and 'The Prince of Gotham'. Looking so far at TDK in terms of casting, story and marketing, Harvey Dent looks to be set up as the 'new' kid in town (another prince), setting up Bruce and Harvey as rival princes/brothers. If you were to use the medieval analogy, Bruce is Arthur, Dent is Lancelot and Rachel is Guinevere (as mentioned previously), which fits the role of the characters very well. The rivalry of the two 'brothers' and the role of the woman they both love would then be the basis of the third story/film.

I think most kids here dont like your Jester = Joker thing because it makes him seem like an idiot or that the story(TDK) isnt going to be all about Joker. There's a lot more to this film than the jester and people just have to realize that.

What my analogy is saying is that unlike Maroni (the conventional villain in TDK, who wants to control / destroy Gotham, like Ra's or Falcone), the Joker/jester creates chaos and destruction in order to make people laugh (which totally fits his character).

 

[Steelsheen]

good post Mad Sci

a lot of movies that usually wound up being epic incorporate the archetypal King Arthur tale when they write their stories. Star Wars and LOTR are such examples.

 

[mcflytrap]

Maybe it's me, but I'm beginning to notice a distinct trend in the type of film Nolan and co. are going for.

BB WAS a 70's style/western-based flick, where the stranger (Batman) comes to town, and with the help of the few righteous (Gordon, Rachel) helps rid it of corruption (From Filmforce).


Even from the title, TDK is based more on a medieval type of story, sort of like King Arthur. Before you dismiss it, here me out.



Batman IS the Dark Knight, and so far the crew have done everything possible to emphasise this connection. The new suit is armoured with chainmail, his new vehicle is a bike (a modern equivalent of a horse), and other [SPOILERS] suggest that he follows other characteristics of knights. Just as a knight is bound to protect his king/castle, Batman is bound to protect Gotham.

If you continue with that analogy, Gordon is the Sheriff (law) of the land, and the new mayor (played by the latino actor) represents the King of Gotham. Harvey represents the 'new' prince (whilst Bruce is the favourite old one). Maroni is the enemy of those in charge of Gotham, who is trying to take control. All that taken together shows a simple, standard storyline (and looks like what TDK is about).


But we're missing one character in a medieval story - the Court Jester (really hard to figure out who's playing this part, eh? . ). The Jester tries to cheer up the people of the land, but ends up annoying everyone and causing lots of trouble. He's not the conventional villain (who wants to take or destroy the castle/land) - he just wants to prank everyone to try and make them laugh.




Anyone else think I might be onto something here?

I logged in just to tell you how assinine this entire post is. The details you listed are so vague they really could be applied to anything. And a Sheriff?? A court jester?? I don't recall the story of King Arthur having any of these.

You aren't just reaching, you're severing your arm and attaching a 20-ft poll.

 

[Malone]

Cool thread, mad-sci.

 

[spdrknight]

You then have a VERY interesting thread which MIGHT set up the third film. It all ties to Bruce Wayne and Dent (not Batman).

In BB, Bruce was referred to as both 'Gotham's favourite son', and 'The Prince of Gotham'. Looking so far at TDK in terms of casting, story and marketing, Harvey Dent looks to be set up as the 'new' kid in town (another prince), setting up Bruce and Harvey as rival princes/brothers. If you were to use the medieval analogy, Bruce is Arthur, Dent is Lancelot and Rachel is Guinevere (as mentioned previously), which fits the role of the characters very well. The rivalry of the two 'brothers' and the role of the woman they both love would then be the basis of the third story/film.

Thats the thing, though. In many versions of the King Arthur tale, Arthur had to come in and prove himself worthy of the kingship. He just didn't come back to Uther's kingdom one day and was welcomed with open arms. So Arthur was not some kind of "favorite son" and he was not a "prince" ever, either.

There is also the conflict within the kingdom, the grappling for land and power. Yes, Bats and Arthur are coming in and cleaning things up but that is where the similarities end. Many times Arthur did not know the "right" method of control he was to use to bring order to his kingdom. He tried many different methods, none of which worked and just threw the kingdom into other kinds of turmoil. Bruce/Bats does not seem to have this difficulty, he comes to Gotham and starts cleaning up the streets and has to deal with the threats along the way. Its much more simple then what Arthur had to go through.

And the love triangle is a stretch, at best. Lancelot and Guinevere, in many Arthur Tales, were the personification of lust and sin. They were giving into their passion and as a result the kingdom was suffering. I don't think that Harvey and Rachel's relationship, if there is one, will be that devastating. The two of them are not even hiding the relationship, it is out in the open and not a secret. Harvey is also not betraying his friend/brother-in-arms. Then there is the point that Bruce already let Rachel go in BB, and this was mutual because of his quest of justice. No betrayal there.

Also... I don't think the Joker is in the same category as a court jester, for the simple fact that the jester really never played that big of a rule in the legend. Unless you look at Tennyson's version, then Dagonet, who is a knight and a court jester, would fit... sort of. Dagonet thought he was brave but was, in reality, a coward. Not a good connection with the Joker.

Your references between TDK and King Arthur are very loss and do not have many threads holding each point together. The legend and retelling of Arthur goes much deeper, politically and religiously, then what you are using it for.

 

[Riven]

Well, I'm sure a point could be made for this analogy, but then, it's so loose a comparison that you could basically make any kind of story structure from the whole of western literature fit.

But hey, whatever works for ya...

 

[blind_fury]

The question is who's Merlin?

Gordon or Alfred?