The Dark Knight TDK Score Discussion

[sohojozo]

Let us not forget that Batman 89 was the first serious Bat-film, and that that motive Elfman created is probably one of the best known melodies of all time. I love the first two scores, though it can be repetitive at some times.
I just don't feel like the electronic stuff added much to Begins. The intensity just isn't the same as the stuff at the credits or at sentimental scenes. I just hope that the next film has music that is more brooding, less rhythmic, and has a bit more identity here and there.

 

[sohojozo]

Oh, and Scandalous is probably one of the best Prince songs EVER Also, I now love you agentsands!

 

[strider]

How so? At the very least, the Elfman/Goldenthal/Walker scores display far more skill in their composition than the dull and and unoriginal score for BATMAN BEGINS.


What is "real" music?


It's been done a million times before - it's not like BATMAN BEGINS was a pioneer in mixing orchestra and electronica.

I never said Elfman and the others were bad, they're not. It's just that well I have 2 degrees in Music and you probably don't. I know what I'm talking about. Hans Zimmer is taking very seriously in the classical music relm as well as Newton-Howard being a leader in comptemporary electronica music...... Leaders in modern music > film composers that write little fanfare themes that graduate students all the time for class.

kthxbye

 

[Agentsands77]

I never said Elfman and the others were bad, they're not. It's just that well I have 2 degrees in Music and you probably don't. I know what I'm talking about.

So do I. I may not have an official degree, but I've had extensive study in music history, music theory, music composition, and vocal performance. Not that credentials are really needed to recognize the lack of quality and/or originality in Zimmer's/Newton's score.

Hans Zimmer is taking very seriously in the classical music relm as well as Newton-Howard being a leader in comptemporary electronica music.....

Now this statement makes me question your credentials. You could be lying, or else, your education wasn't of a particularly high quality. There's just no way that statement is true. There are a few film composers that classical musicians have taken relatively seriously over the years - Bernard Herrmann, for one - but on the whole, film music is looked down on, and Hans Zimmer is viewed as one of the worst offenders.

Classical musicians lodge complaints with his paint-by-numbers scores, his lack of thematic originality, and his lack of musical innovation (his action themes in BEGINS are as generic as you get, really). Furthermore, Zimmer's lacking in any real musical training - he started his music career playing synthesizers, rather than having full study in music composition and theory.

As far as innovation and musical skill are concerned, the Elfman/Goldenthal/Walker efforts are lightyears beyond the Zimmer/Newton BEGINS score.

 

[sohojozo]

Sands is right: Zimmer has lost a lot of respect these past few years for his lack of originality, and Begins is no exception. The theme rides on the coat-tails of many of his scores, and even when he stated that he didn't want definitive themes (or something to that extent), they are still rampant. Family moments have one, moments with alfred or rachel scenes have one (usually same as family), batman on the prowl or action scenes have one, and the ending meshes a few together. Regardless, i wouldn't say that begins' score was terrible; i just felt like it was a little half-assed at times. If they want to go classical with electronica, great. just go the full nine yards with it.
I still think the credits part is the best: the inversions are lush, the staccatto rhythmic theme is well integrated (and finally feels like it has a place), and towards the end of it, you start hearing this despairity that you do not hear anywhere else in the film. They mentioned the score as being a developmental type thing, building to an end, or a beginning, in Batman's case. All good and great. But i do not want to hear the same theme they play over Bruce and Rachel again. I want evolution, especially thematically. Because THEY ARE THERE, and there is no getting past that.

 

[strider]

So do I. I may not have an official degree, but I've had extensive study in music history, music theory, music composition, and vocal performance. Not that credentials are really needed to recognize the lack of quality and/or originality in Zimmer's/Newton's score.


Now this statement makes me question your credentials. You could be lying, or else, your education wasn't of a particularly high quality. There's just no way that statement is true. There are a few film composers that classical musicians have taken relatively seriously over the years - Bernard Herrmann, for one - but on the whole, film music is looked down on, and Hans Zimmer is viewed as one of the worst offenders.

Classical musicians lodge complaints with his paint-by-numbers scores, his lack of thematic originality, and his lack of musical innovation (his action themes in BEGINS are as generic as you get, really). Furthermore, Zimmer's lacking in any real musical training - he started his music career playing synthesizers, rather than having full study in music composition and theory.

As far as innovation and musical skill are concerned, the Elfman/Goldenthal/Walker efforts are lightyears beyond the Zimmer/Newton BEGINS score.

This is the most ******ed post I've ever laid eyes on. You keep trying to sound smart and it's not really working. You question my education which you have absolutely no idea where I recieved it from, no idea at what I status I recieved my degrees in and no idea with who I studied with. Unintelligent people like you that tend to make ignorant remarks like these, so that's OK. If you didn't like the score to BB you're probably not going to like the score for TDK it's a simple as that.

 

[sohojozo]

hey, hey, let's not fight guys. back to the music! I was satisfied with the score, but i feel like there is more to be done. Mix it up some more, i say!

 

[Agentsands77]

This is the most ******ed post I've ever laid eyes on.

You keep trying to sound smart and it's not really working.

I'm not trying to do anything other than question the assumptions in your post.

If anyone started off trying to sound smart, it was you, with your initial "Hey, I have two music degrees and therefore I'm an expert, so no-one better dare to argue with my assertions." That's downright elitist.

You question my education which you have absolutely no idea where I recieved it from, no idea at what I status I recieved my degrees in and no idea with who I studied with.

Care to enlighten us, then?

Unintelligent people like you that tend to make ignorant remarks like these, so that's OK.

"Unintelligent people" also tend to make remarks like, "as far as real music goes..."

If you didn't like the score to BB you're probably not going to like the score for TDK it's a simple as that.

Fair enough. But the topic you brought up wasn't whether or not someone liked the score, which is quite subjective. You brought the discussion into the area of evaluating its compositional quality.

 

[sohojozo]

So what do you think would match up better with the evolving themes of "escalation": intensifying density/orchestration in scenes/more heavy composition OR reducing density in more frightening scenes, stark minimalist stuff? When BTAS did the laughing fish, Timm had Walker write all-strings in the vein of Psycho. Perhaps this might be fitting?

 

[strider]

So what do you think would match up better with the evolving themes of "escalation": intensifying density/orchestration in scenes/more heavy composition OR reducing density in more frightening scenes, stark minimalist stuff? When BTAS did the laughing fish, Timm had Walker write all-strings in the vein of Psycho. Perhaps this might be fitting?

Perhaps yes some of things might get explored. Didn't really hear this in BB. Then again a lot of the music was based on fear like the movie. Using the escalation theme would be nice. I think more denisty in the actions scenes would be OK as long as it doesn't get in the way of the action. Even though I personally think there won't be any more action as there was in BB. That's just me.

 

[Frank Noir]

TDK will probably be darker than BB, so I think the score should be darker too. I do think The Joker should have a theme, but I don't think there should be a track called 'Joker's Theme'. It should be buried in the music. What I loved about the BB score, was that only after listening the score a few times you discovered the various themes.

Hans Zimmer and JN Howard said that a few themes from the BB score didn't make it into the movie, because the character of Batman wasn't ready for them yet. Like a theme in Molossus (starting at 3:33). I'm not sure if this theme was left out of the movie, I can't remember. But I love it. It's dark and heroic. Would fit a showdown between Batman and The Joker.

BTW, should they name the tracks after bats again? I'd love it, even though it's not original anymore.

 

[Agentsands77]

BTW, should they name the tracks after bats again? I'd love it, even though it's not original anymore.

Sure, as long as the tracks are in chronological order. That's a must.

 

[mclay18]

HOWEVER: the music rolling during the credits is about ten times better than what went on throughout most of the film. I loved it after giving that a long, hard listen, because that is supposedly the new theme. also, the scene where bruce throws his gun into the river: WOW. More of that please! sorry for lengthy posts

I think Hans Zimmer's contribution to BB was very typical of a Zimmer score -- synthesizers, electronics, a choir here and there and a primary leaning on brass and strings. Don't get me wrong, Zimmer is a good composer but I think he does better on projects that challenge him or force him to leave his synths at the door. I wonder why Nolan talked with Zimmer in the first place, considering that Zimmer initially didn't want to do the score at first.

If you're familiar with Zimmer's work on "Crimson Tide", "Mission Impossible 2", "The Thin Red Line", "Pirates of the Caribbean" and even "The Ring", you can hear fragments of each score in the movie. The scene with Bruce throwing the gun in the river sounds like Zimmer took one of his unused cues from "The Ring" and put it there -- you can even hear a portion of the "Ring" motif. Not that I didn't enjoy the score, it fit the action and complemeted the film. It just seemed recycled in places.

But a solo effort by James Newton Howard would've been much more interesting and his theme would probably be closer to the previous themes of Elfman, Walker and Goldenthal than Zimmer's. I hope Howard and Zimmer switch places this time around -- have Zimmer do the elegance and Howard bring in the darkness.

 

[Rynan]

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, Batman!
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, Batman!

Batman, Batman, Batman!

Na, na, na, na, na, Batman!

 

[SpinyNorman]

I really enjoyed the primal drum beats they had for Batman in Begins. Zimmer seems to have music that suggest tone more than outright operatic songs, like in The Prestige. (I think he did The Prestige.)

For the Joker, I'd like some sort of really, creepy, wailing flute music, something that's repetitive and child-like but in a discordant or minor key. Like something played on a tin whistle over and over again whenever he comes into a scene. That'd be creepy as balls.

 

[SpinyNorman]

durf hurr hur

 

[Agentsands77]

Zimmer seems to have music that suggest tone more than outright operatic songs, like in The Prestige. (I think he did The Prestige.)

Actually, David Julyan did THE PRESTIGE.

 

[SpinyNorman]

Actually, David Julyan did THE PRESTIGE.

Well, nuts.

Still, I really like how whenever the "machine" came up he didn't so much introduce a theme as create an atmosphere by using crazy percussion that made you think the air was filled with electricity. I'd like that for the Joker, rather than a definite theme song.

 

[sohojozo]

SpinyNorman, i like your idea of possibly incorporating woodwinds into music surrounding the Joker! It should definitely not be a completely independent theme, it needs to mesh like Noir said. Flute could be cool, and some more atonal music would definitely spice up the new score. But, at the same time, it might be a little expectable. Of course, neither Ra's nor Scarecrow ever had any indication of presence that stuck out in the music during their scenes. But how could you pass up such an opportunity with the Joker?

 

[sohojozo]

Oh yeah, and Howard REALLY should've done this one on his own. Snow Falling On Cedars and The Village soundtracks, to name a few, have this sensibility that Zimmer really lacks. I remember hearing The Village soundtrack for the first time and being pretty engulphed. never saw the film, but heard the soundtrack was the only good feature.

 

[Stringer]

LOL... yeah, but come on... Scandalous was the s**t.
And I mean that. Really.

For real though, Scandalous was the s**t

 

[sasquatchs]

But a solo effort by James Newton Howard would've been much more interesting and his theme would probably be closer to the previous themes of Elfman, Walker and Goldenthal than Zimmer's. I hope Howard and Zimmer switch places this time around -- have Zimmer do the elegance and Howard bring in the darkness.

Exactly, Zimmer is just too overpowering and obvious, Howard just seems better suited to Nolan's style. A Howard+David Julyan partnership would have been something. Lets hope the script can inspire more depth this time.

 

[IamtheBatman]

I hope zimmer and howard blow away the bb soundtrack by a long shot.

 

[Agentsands77]

I hope zimmer and howard blow away the bb soundtrack by a long shot.

Indeed. It felt like both of them were going through the motions... both of them are capable of good work when they want to (HANNIBAL for Zimmer, or SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS for Howard). Hopefully their next collaboration will be far more interesting and complex.

 

[speedracer216]

So what do you think would match up better with the evolving themes of "escalation": intensifying density/orchestration in scenes/more heavy composition OR reducing density in more frightening scenes, stark minimalist stuff? When BTAS did the laughing fish, Timm had Walker write all-strings in the vein of Psycho. Perhaps this might be fitting?

man, did BTAS do anything wrong? methinks the answer is no.

still, a movie has a different feel, but they could look to BTAS for inspiration